Indentification? (1 Viewer)

[chrisharrison]

Hi,

I have been lucky enough to get hold of LAH068 Panzer I. I have (correctly I hope) deemed it to be an Ausf. B but I cannot find out what the insignia on the turret represents, looks like leaves surrounding another symbol. Can anyone tell me what this represents, is it simply LAH insignia?

Here is a link to a photo

http://www.toysoldierclub.com/Toy-soldiers_lah068_Product.aspx

Thanks for your expertise, my research abilities don't go this far it would seem!

Chris

 

[rpk]

Hi Chris,

I believe that is the "key" marking for the 1st SS division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. There is a picture of it on the wikipedia page. Would be consistent for the LAH series. Not an expert, so if I've misread it someone please jump in and correct!

Take care,

-Rich

 

[chrisharrison]

Rich,

Thanks a lot, now that I know what I am looking for, I can see that it is indeed the 'key' symbol with what seems to be oak leaves around it.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Phantom Warrior]

It's an early symbol of The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (LSSAH) which was Adolf Hitler's personal bodyguard Regiment It took part in the invasion of Poland in 1939 and in the Battle of France in 1940. It was expanded into a full Division just before Operation Barbarossa in 1941.

Terry

 

[Guy]

Chris,
It is the Div symbol of the 1st SS-Pz Div "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" as used in the year 1942.
In 1940-41 and early 1942 the symbol was the shield with the key but without the oak leaves ( in early 1942 without the left upper corner)
In 1943 ( In Russia) it changed to a T upside down in a square.
Two keys with oak leaves is the symbol of the 1 SS Panzerkorps-s.SS. Pz.Abt.101
hope to have been of help
Guy:smile2:

 

[marksable]

Is this the only Panzer I that K&C has made? I haven't been in the hobby as long as most of you but I can't ever remember seeing a K&C Panzer I for sale, retired or not.

I'd also love to know what changed between Panzers I and II, they look quite similar.

 

[Mitch]

We also need to remember that the key design itself was nothing to do with the 1st SS LAH ever. It was link between dietrich and key and, the loyalty and affection the men had for him that meant we saw a key symbol on SS lah AFV's etc.

Had sepp not been in charge they would have not had the key
Mitch

 

[Guy]

I'd also love to know what changed between Panzers I and II, they look quite similar.[/QUOTE]

Marksable
the main difference between the Panzerwagen I and II is the armement
PZKFW I =2 x 7,92 mm MG
equiped with a Krupp petrol engine
PZKFW II had 1 x 2cm KWK 30 gun and 1 x 7,92mm MG
the engine was a petrol engine Maybach HL 6 cyl.
the range for both tanks was approx the same ( 130-150 km) and so was the thickness of the armour plating.
Guy:smile2:

 

[lancer]

Is this the only Panzer I that K&C has made? I haven't been in the hobby as long as most of you but I can't ever remember seeing a K&C Panzer I for sale, retired or not.

I'd also love to know what changed between Panzers I and II, they look quite similar.

There was a later model Mk.I made by KC. It was a rare version, in reality, because the Germans did not make many of them. KC's version was a camo version that came with two figures. It still has the two MG armament. The item ID# is WS108, but it is retired, though not that long ago. -- Al

 

[chrisharrison]

Chris,
It is the Div symbol of the 1st SS-Pz Div "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" as used in the year 1942.
In 1940-41 and early 1942 the symbol was the shield with the key but without the oak leaves ( in early 1942 without the left upper corner)
In 1943 ( In Russia) it changed to a T upside down in a square.
Two keys with oak leaves is the symbol of the 1 SS Panzerkorps-s.SS. Pz.Abt.101
hope to have been of help
Guy:smile2:

Guy,

Thanks for the detailed info. It leaves me a little confused though. You say the oak leaves did not appear until 1942. I believe the model in question is supposed to be part of the Berlin '38 set...is this an error on K&C's part to add the oak leaves to a tank this early?

Chris

 

[Mitch]

I have pictures of Panzer I variants of the LAH parading down the champs Elysees in front of Papa Hausser and Von Rundstedt after the victory with France with the oak leaves on the side which, is well before the 1942 introduction.
Mitch

Guy,

Thanks for the detailed info. It leaves me a little confused though. You say the oak leaves did not appear until 1942. I believe the model in question is supposed to be part of the Berlin '38 set...is this an error on K&C's part to add the oak leaves to a tank this early?

Chris

 

[PanzerAce1944]

To reply to the previous question about other K&C Pzkw 1's the second camo version
can still be found at retail for $115.00 in the U.S.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The Division symbol on the Panzer I has some inconsistencies. I don't think it is entirely accurate.

Guy is correct about the Oak Leaves. Deitrich got his Oak Leaves December 31, 1942 so the Oak Leaves did not appear on the Division symbol until early 1942 and they were not as big as on the K&C model. After Kursk, the Oak Leaves were even smaller, just along the bottom of the shield and did not wrap around the sides of the shield.

The shield is also problematic. If the model is from 1938, 1939 or 1940, the LAHSS was only a motorized regiment and not a Panzer Division and as such would not have used a shield with the top right corner scooped out. Their shield would have had the top left corner scooped out for a Panzer Grenadier formation. 1st LAHSS did not become a Panzer Division until Barbarossa in 1941.

S.ssSchwere Pz.Abt always had the small Oak Leaves at the bottom of the shield as it wasn't formed until July 1943, long after LAHSS was using the Oak Leaves. Their symbol has a crossed pair of Lockpicks and not skeleton keys like the LAHSS

Terry

 

[chrisharrison]

This is interesting, I greatly appreciate and respect the knowledge base that is present in this forum. Is this a regular occurrence with K&C or have I noticed something rare and out-of-character for them?

I am a bit of a stickler for things being totally accurate and correct...should this make me like this model less or have it banished from my collection?????

Chris

 

[Phantom Warrior]

This is interesting, I greatly appreciate and respect the knowledge base that is present in this forum. Is this a regular occurrence with K&C or have I noticed something rare and out-of-character for them?

I am a bit of a stickler for things being totally accurate and correct...should this make me like this model less or have it banished from my collection?????

Chris

Some of the models are correct, and some have generic symbols. The more specific the symbols, the less flexible the model is in displays. I am a stickler too, but don't let it ruin the enjoyment of my collecting.

Terry

 

[chrisharrison]

Good point Terry, I shall just enjoy the model for it's overall look and accuracy!

Chris

 

[Guy]

Hi,

I have been lucky enough to get hold of LAH068 Panzer I. I have (correctly I hope) deemed it to be an Ausf. B but I cannot find out what the insignia on the turret represents, looks like leaves surrounding another symbol. Can anyone tell me what this represents, is it simply LAH insignia?

Here is a link to a photo

http://www.toysoldierclub.com/Toy-soldiers_lah068_Product.aspx

Thanks for your expertise, my research abilities don't go this far it would seem!

Chris

all about the 1 SS Panzerdivision symbols in:

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/abzeichen/wass.htm

once on that page go to Waffen SS divisionen
There you find all the symbols of all the waffen SS div and also all the other German div if needed.
Guy:smile2:

 

[Phantom Warrior]

all about the 1 SS Panzerdivision symbols in:

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/abzeichen/wass.htm

once on that page go to Waffen SS divisionen
There you find all the symbols of all the waffen SS div and also all the other German div if needed.
Guy:smile2:

Thanks Guy. It is one of the references I use along with 3 books on military vehicle markings by Terence Wise. But even with all the references, there is still some variation and uncertainty.

The table of symbols shows the progression of symbols from the fancy symbol used by the 1st SS Regiment in the Berlin parades and the invasion of Poland - the 1st SS was only an infantry regiment - unlikely to be parading Panzer I's in 1938 Berlin. It was only just before the Battle of France that the key and shield emblem was adopted as the 1st SS had become a motorized regiment - the second symbol. And notice the flat top of the shield to indicate a Panzer Grenadier unit and not a Panzer unit.

The 3rd symbol in 1941 was for the expansion of the 1st SS to a motorized Brigade and the invasions of Greece and Yugoslavia - still a flat top shield.

In 1941 the 1st SS was expanded to Division status and got tanks, becoming a Panzer Division for Barbarossa as represented by the 4th symbol of the key on a Panzer unit shield (right top corner scooped out) and early in 1942 added the Oak Leaves (symbol 5). The 6th symbol was only used at Kursk to fool the Russians. After Kursk, the 1st SS reverted to an updated key on shield with smaller Oak Leaves.

So the K&C model does not represent a parade tank in 1938 Berlin. It very specifically represents a Panzer I of the 1st SS Panzer Division in Russia in 1942. The model even has mud and weathering like a tank in combat and not like one on parade.

So much for Eastern Front doesn't sell :rolleyes2: Try and find one of these tanks. And Andy, how about an early Russian tank to oppose it??

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

The Kursk unit emblem they show is incorrect in two respects. The change for this division was only proposed and never implemented and the actual proposed emblem had two long vertical bars and a third shorter bar. The symbol they show was used by 7.Panzer-Division.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Actually the Kursk unit emblem they show is incorrect in two respects. The change for this division was only proposed and never implemented and the actual proposed emblem had two long vertical bars and a third shorter bar.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/PanzerdivisionenSS/Abzeichen/1SSPD.gif

Like I posted - even the references have contradictions and inaccuracies. That same single post inverted "T" symbol but in yellow was also designated for the 7th Panzer (Heer) Division for Kursk. And the only 2-1/2 vertical bar symbol I can remember, (in white with no bar across the base) was supposed to be for the 3rd Panzer Division (Heer) for Kursk - but I don't think they were at Kursk.

Terry