Is the ecomony hurting your collecting choices??? (1 Viewer)

[Mitch]

JB...

Totally understand what your saying. I have said many times on here that painting and dio making are not really hard and would like more people to dip their toes and, get their hands dirty. I do agree with Brett in the fact that I could not see many wanting to leave behind the model making to, as you say, buy off the shelf.

On the economy. I know some people who have been hit very badly with the economy and some who have actually got better off with lower interest rates they have gained extra income from lower mortgage rates so, its a hard thing to actually say what effect the economy has had on collecting. I suppose at the end of the day only the manufacturers books will know that
Mitch

Hi Mitch - If I mis-understood the post in question - then point taken my friend. Just wanted to point out (not only to Brett) - that there is often a way to stay in the hobby, when money gets tight. Not only that - but that the hobby - as I think you and I are very aware - can often be much more than just buying off the shelf - but can be so much more satisfying - if a bit of work is put in by the buyer too.

Lovely hobby though - whichever way you get to the final result.............Stick with it - it will get better........jb^&grin

 

[Firebat]

I don't know Brett, but he does not seem to be a BSP fan.... I received some corresopondence from him a while back stating as such.......But anyway... our website (When it is working) provides a lot of feedback to us. We HAVE absolutely introduced 1/35th scale modelers to this hobby with some favorable results. Some really didnt like building models to begin with, and had no idea this hobby existed with the level of detail seen as of late.

 

[Warrior]

You don't notice me with an iPad, xBox, or other gadget. Other kids wonder why I spend my money on toy soldiers- I wonder what they will say they realize that there iPads will be worthless soon, when the next couple ones come out....
-Sandor

Sandor is 100% correct; just as there are toy soldier collectors, there are gadget collectors, folks who cannot wait to buy the latest gadget...............which will be outdated in six months, then it's on to the next gadget..............no thanks.
5

 

[Warrior]

The market we are after are not necessarily young.....We are mostly after the 1/35th scale modelers, in addition to military artists. museum curators. military personel etc. whatever their age. But whether we are doing well or not right now.....The stuff still keeps on coming and that is what is taxing the wallet. With the relative new comers Thomas Gunn and First Legion and with The Collectors Showcase, Britains and Figarti doing a excellent job, in addition to good old K&C. The choices are staggering.

Alex is spot on, dead on accurate with this post.

In my experience, the young market is wildly enthusiastic about toy soldiers, their eyes light up like a christmas tree when they walk into a show and see my displays, or Matts from The Hobby Bunker.

Then they point out a tank they want, so the parent asks "How much is that" and I tell them "300.00", then they go face down onto the carpet and have to tell the kid "Maybe next time Jimmy."

The young market is dependent a lot of the time on the parents disposable income, not theirs because there are child labor laws in this country.

Time and time again, I've seen kids with parents buying toy soldiers, year after year, then one year, the kid and the parents are gone as the kid grows up, goes to high school, gets his license, discovers girls, game over man, game over.

I have picked up several new customers the past year or so who are buying left, right and center and a couple of them are former modelers and like Alex says, look at what you get now vs what you'd have to put in timewise to build and paint a model.

Don't get me wrong, there are hard core modelers out there who will always build their own vehicles and figures and never buy a prebuilt item, but according to the hobby shop owners in the area I speak with and the guys I know who sell model kits, that end of the hobby is going south sooner than later.

When I started in the business 15 years ago, there were several model kit/model figure shows that I'd attend; a few of them didn't even want toy soldier dealers there, they'd rather have guys selling model kits, model figure kits, paints, brushes, etc, etc, for the do it yourselfers.

Fast forward to now and these model kit/model figure shows welcome the toy soldier dealers with open arms as the guys buying and selling kits are dropping like flies. One show in particular I attend has gone from 90%/10% model kit sellers to toy soldier dealer to a 180 with 90% being toy soldier dealers, it's the toy soldier dealers who are keeping a lot of these shows going now.


In addition to 1/32nd scale toy soldiers, I also sell 20mm wargaming items; a number of years ago, I used to sell raftloads of kits to these guys, Esci kits were worth a small fortune back in the day; now with Dragon, Hobby Master, Panzerstahl and others making outstanding prebuilt models, my kit sales have gone in the toilet, while I sell a ton of prebuilt 1/72nd diecast.

Again, Alex is correct, modelers are coming over to this hobby faster than people understand while that hobby takes on water and is about to go nose down to the bottom of the Atlantic.

 

[pugio]

The economy isn't, but a new girlfriend is......

 

[johnnybach]

Ooo-er - looks like I'm on the way out! Us oldies who stick stuff together are apparently dropping like flies^&grin

I bow to your superior knowledge about trends in the marketplace, chaps - as I can only see it from my perspective as a continuing (older) painter.

Bit sad that - because I find it great fun. Maybe the youngsters of today - who still appear to love TS, apparently - will re-discover the joys to be had from making up something themselves later on in life - just as I did. Hope so .............johnnybach

 

[Firebat]

To take what George said a bit further, this is an instant gratification generation, most people don't want to put hard work into a hobby. I have a good friend that owns a model RR store, who I have been purchasing my train stuff from for at least 20 years.....

Now that, is no doubt a popular hobby, but according to him, it is declining, because people don't want to put the time in to build a layout....RR cars were kits, now they are more expensive and pre built.

Kids and adults of today love video games, no work just play. But for those who still like replicas, whether they be trains or military related stuff etc. nothing like taking it out of the box buying many of the terrain mats and accessories that are available and having a realistic set up in about an hour. That works even for the instant gratification generation.

Hey despite the economic times this hobby still seems to be doing well, and BSP will continue to try and do our part to introduce more people into this hobby. It is our mission and our pleasure. Alex

 

[Warrior]

To take what George said a bit further, this is an instant gratification generation, most people don't want to put hard work into a hobby.

Which is why hobbies like model kit building and model railroading are on the decline.

Model railroading is huge in the northeast, or at least it was. I remember as a kid my father built a huge layout in our basement, building it was half the fun, running the trains was the other half.


That was back in the day where there was no computers, internet, cellphones, video games, DVDs, Ipads, Ipods, Peapods, blackberries, blueberries or any other berry related gadgets.

Also, we had seven tv channels; 4, 5, 7, 12, 27, 38 and 56, that was it.

We live in an entirely different world where people want things yesterday..................

 

[Mitch]

Speaking only of two model shops where I live whose owners are good friends and, a couple in Newcastle all have stated a surge in plastic kit sales across a variety of age groups. Local model societies that I am involved with have all seen an influx of new members and, some younger ages . Don't really know about the US but, modelling in the UK seems quite vibrant and, I was talking with a rep who says firms like trumpeter especially and a few others are doing very well.

Even some of the older manufacturers such as Revell are seeing a rise in interest. I know a number of modellers who I have shown sets (across the board) who are stunned at the price charged for the lack of detail/paint style and, would not change what they are doing for a pre built model with lack of detail. Mind, they are very good model builders. The interesting thing with the model world is the vast array of after market parts and, you can now super detail any kit to a superb level i.e. internal detail engines etc.

I can see what they are saying as detail in the 1/30th hobby although good will never eclipse a kit built model IMO. I suppose, Iam one of the want it yesterday also but, for me, I enjoy the scale of this hobby more as 1/35th although good was just too small, probably why I went the otherway into 1/6th for a few years.

I don't see an end to kit making just as I don't see an end to pre built buying I think the age we live in which, has been mentioned will see up's and downs but, speaking about the UK and modellers I speak with it seems there has been some losses and gains but, nothing as drastic as George speaks of. I think thats just a natural evolution things come in and out of favour but, never really die away.

I do agree that building and painting time means some may want the immediate now but, one has to remember not every modeller takes months to complete and paint a kit. They can be rattled of quite quickly should one wish. It all depends on the skill level one is at.

It would be interesting also to see how many may be migrating from the pre built hobby to other related interests
Mitch

 

[Warrior]

Greatest story I ever heard about model kits was a friend on mine who was in a local club got a call one day from a woman who's husband had died and she said he had a huge model kits collection and she wanted to sell it.

He and a friend of his went to the house, she told them her husband was an avid kit builder, every night after he came home from work, he'd have dinner and go strait to the basement to work on a kit, then a few hours later he'd go into a huge room upstairs in the house that was his man cave, he had all the kits he built in the room and he'd be in there for hours just admiring his work, she'd never been in the room, it was locked and he had the key and she didn't have the heart to go in there after he died.


She said they never traveled or did much of anything, he was devoted to his hobby, but was a nice guy and nice to her and she understood it was his passion, specifically his admiring of his own work, which brought him great joy according to her.


The two guys headed into the basement and it was like a store; metal shelves absolutely lined with kit after kit, every Tiger I ever made, every Tiger II every made, on and on it went, shelf after shelf. Then in the corner there was this incredible painting table with recessed lighting, huge custom built cabinets with pull out racks with paint bottle after paint bottle lining them, dozens of high end paint brushes, modeling tools, glue, etc, etc, just an incredible work area; the thing my friend noticed was how neat it all was, hardly looked like anything was ever used.

Then they headed upstairs to his man cave, the room with the raftloads of built up model kits lining the shelves according to the wife. They opened the huge french doors and walked into the room where they saw recessed shelving built into the walls all the way around the room.

And there on the shelf sat one tank.

As in ONE.

They both looked at each other stunned.

My friend then opened the closet doors and started poking around and his buddy said "Hey, what are you doing?"..........to which my friend replied "What do you think I'm doing; I'm looking for the rope he threw out the window every night so he could climb down and run off to the local strip joint."

Model kit "builders"; got to love them.

I had a customer several years ago who collected Esci 1/72nd scale kits; anytime I found them, I'd email him and he'd buy whatever I had, he must have bought over 300 kits from me.

One day he and I were talking and I was telling him about the Esci Marder III I had recently built and what a nightmare the individual track links were on it and did he have any issues with his as he had bought several from me; his reply was "Oh I don't know anything about building them, I've never built a kit in my life, I just like to collect them."

Ok then.

 

[lancer]

Great stories, George. Had a similar story when I was in the military book business. This gentleman was a long time customer who was a very enthusiastic collector across many different wars/periods. Literally purchased hundreds of titles from us and had a personal library of some 3000+ titles. Spent years putting his collection together and was very knowledgable about the books and the editions and conditions, etc. One day he decided to sell the collection and while we were discussing price and other related subjects, we asked him how come he wanted to sell and why he could part with what was obviously his lifelong passion with military history. Well, you guessed it. He had never read a single one of the books he collected. Never had any real interest in military history but was in love with the idea of owning a superb library and had, basically, just picked a subject to collect. Could have been anything, sci-fi, novels, but he just picked military history. Never been so shocked but it just shows you that it takes all kinds. -- Al

 

[Warrior]

Great stories, George. Had a similar story when I was in the military book business. This gentleman was a long time customer who was a very enthusiastic collector across many different wars/periods. Literally purchased hundreds of titles from us and had a personal library of some 3000+ titles. Spent years putting his collection together and was very knowledgable about the books and the editions and conditions, etc. One day he decided to sell the collection and while we were discussing price and other related subjects, we asked him how come he wanted to sell and why he could part with what was obviously his lifelong passion with military history. Well, you guessed it. He had never read a single one of the books he collected. Never had any real interest in military history but was in love with the idea of owning a superb library and had, basically, just picked a subject to collect. Could have been anything, sci-fi, novels, but he just picked military history. Never been so shocked but it just shows you that it takes all kinds. -- Al

I'm glad for your sake he picked military history....................some of the kit guys I used to deal with would only buy shrink wrapped kits, same deal with some of the plastic toy soldier collectors, they'd only buy old Airfix ho/oo sets still on the sprues and/or still shrink wrapped.

Yep, it takes all kinds..............

 

[trooper]

As the majority of contributors to this forum seem to be of the opinion that the entire TS industry revolves around K&C, I wonder if, bearing in mind the on going furore about pricing, they decided to release castings, would there then be an increase of collectors having a go at painting their own? Trooper

 

[Mitch]

Interesting proposal and, with FL doing 1/35th scale figures of their 1/30th releases it could be a way of attracting and keeping everyone happy.
Mitch

As the majority of contributors to this forum seem to be of the opinion that the entire TS industry revolves around K&C, I wonder if, bearing in mind the on going furore about pricing, they decided to release castings, would there then be an increase of collectors having a go at painting their own? Trooper

 

[The Military Workshop]

JB,
Very few people that I have met in Oz paint "castings" (Obee an exception again) and they would have to be
imported. Simply can not do the kind of display over such a wide variety of subjects that can be had from brands
like K&C, Britains, CS, FL etc. You clearly enjoy the painting side of things more and that is part of the whole
experience for you.

Alex, My comments had nothing to do with whether I like you or not. I just picked on the modeller to collector
idea and added my thoughts. In fact when Mitch mentioned I was probably responding to Alex's comments I
thought he was referring to the Alex from Canada and had to look back through the thread.

George's experience is quite different to mine regarding modellers. Admittedly I get some collectors who probably
wish they could make and paint a kit and have tried but without much success. I am mainly talking about the average
modeller who can make a reasonable vehicle or aircraft. To them the main attraction is the making and the hobby
side of it. An admirable hobby and I respect those who have that patience and ability to do it.

Simmo would be the only collector I know who has been a modeller before. He now uses his modelling skills to
make his great diorama scenes and that is a point I have tried to push on other modellers without much success.

I think George's story is a good example of what can happen. I met one modeller who said he had 3,000 unmade
kits. Imagine what kind of display he would have if he had been collecting TS's instead. A good friend has a small
storage room full of Dragon kits and has 4 of each of many. He thinks he is going to make them. He was the same
person who, when I was producing resin figure kits, said I should make sure the box art was nice as 90% would
not be made. (Useless trivia : I met an Aussie who had painted box art image for three
Dragon armour kits and he was paid $1500 for each - about 5 years ago).

Regards
Brett

 

[johnnybach]

Nice little thread this - love the interesting anecdotes about collectors quirks! I'm not too surprised about peole who collect boxed kits - and never open them A bit like a few collectors of painted soldiers I have met - who would never dream of taking the soldiers out of the box (even to check there was no damage on the bits they can't see!). To me - it's all a bit bizzare - as there is nothing like handling a beautifully painted piece, once it has been finished. However, you pays your money - and then it's yours - to do with it as you see fit. The beauty of just collecting boxed examples and never touching them - is that when the owners eventually go to the great collector in the sky - these untouched items eventually find their way back onto the market - to be enjoyed by somebody else in pristine form.

As to buying some of the higher priced models of today as unpainted castings - bring them on!

However, highly priced painted versions - COULD mean just highly priced unpainted castings. I frequently buy castings versions of painted - and a rough and ready rule of thumb appears to be that castings are usually around half of painted prices. So if you are charging (say) £25 for a painted soldier - then a casting would cost £12.50. Compare that to another company who charge £6 for a painted model - who then ask £3 for a casting. Which one would you choose????

Don't forget - you can adapt and alter ANY casting - and THEN you paint it. From my experience - you can make virtually ANY casting look as good as some of the most expensivee items available - given enough time, care and patience (providing you have the skills). Indeed, a lot of us modeller/painters look upon it as a challenge, to replicate or improve on many highly priced painted versions of soldiers - and get quite a kick out of doing it for very low costs.

There also appears to be quite a few differences around the world in experiences. Given that the UK is a relatively small area with a high number of folks per square mile - and has a thriving "cottage industry" of smaller makers/suppliers of both painted and casting TS', - maybe it's not so surprising that the experience of collectors here is different from (say) Oz. There are very different demographics there - so not surprising that availability and distribution problems may be different too.

The Internet is probably changing these differences as I write - and will likely continue to do so in the future. The World is indeed getting to be a smaller place - witness this very discussion we are having via this medium, wher folks from all corners of the World are discussing TS. I am currently buying castings from a supplier in the USA - something new for me - just because I want something that I cannot get here as a casting! Great Stuff.

But enough - I'm rambling on a bit....... BUT the more I do what I do....currently, the more choices that I CAN afford seem to pop up. I have no fears for the hobby - I think both it - and (most of) us - are doing fine. Thanks for listening....johnnybach

 

[Warrior]

JB,
Very few people that I have met in Oz paint "castings" (Obee an exception again) and they would have to be
imported. Simply can not do the kind of display over such a wide variety of subjects that can be had from brands
like K&C, Britains, CS, FL etc. You clearly enjoy the painting side of things more and that is part of the whole
experience for you.

Alex, My comments had nothing to do with whether I like you or not. I just picked on the modeller to collector
idea and added my thoughts. In fact when Mitch mentioned I was probably responding to Alex's comments I
thought he was referring to the Alex from Canada and had to look back through the thread.

George's experience is quite different to mine regarding modellers. Admittedly I get some collectors who probably
wish they could make and paint a kit and have tried but without much success. I am mainly talking about the average
modeller who can make a reasonable vehicle or aircraft. To them the main attraction is the making and the hobby
side of it. An admirable hobby and I respect those who have that patience and ability to do it.

Simmo would be the only collector I know who has been a modeller before. He now uses his modelling skills to
make his great diorama scenes and that is a point I have tried to push on other modellers without much success.

I think George's story is a good example of what can happen. I met one modeller who said he had 3,000 unmade
kits. Imagine what kind of display he would have if he had been collecting TS's instead. A good friend has a small
storage room full of Dragon kits and has 4 of each of many. He thinks he is going to make them. He was the same
person who, when I was producing resin figure kits, said I should make sure the box art was nice as 90% would
not be made. (Useless trivia : I met an Aussie who had painted box art image for three
Dragon armour kits and he was paid $1500 for each - about 5 years ago).

Regards
Brett

I guess the bottom line is at the end of the day, a collector is a collector whether it be painted 54mm/60mm figures, unpainted kits or model kits.

To each his own, whatever makes a person happy, finding rare items and collecting the items is really half the fun is it not? It's FUN at the end of the day.

Myself I collect 20mm figures as many of you know and I enjoy painting them and mounting them on stand and setting them up in huge "dioramas" and just admiring them for days, to me it's fun and relaxing and I enjoy planning out my displays, setting it up and looking at it. I also enjoy buying the figures and adding to my armies.

I recently found on Ebay two extremely rare 20mm ACW sets from a now defunct company called Qualitycast, Union and Confederate command sets from Gettysburg; each one comes with all of the major personalities, plus tents, tables, chairs, etc, etc, they are incredibly tough to find and I scored them both, when that package arrived I was thrilled.

This scale is also popular with wargamers and when I go to the wargaming shows and discuss my collection, people will ask me what rules I use, etc, etc and I tell them I don't wargame, I collect.

They look at me like I've got three heads; I also buy all the rules sets and scenario booklets that come out, most of which have superb color shots of figures all laid out in games and they look superb and also nice scenario maps that help me recreate specific battles; again, I dont' wargame, I just like the books.

So again, all that matters is whatever you collect and for whatever reason you collect it, just enjoy it and don't get caught up in all the nonsense as afterall in the end, it's a hobby, not life and death........

 

[Mitch]

So, coming full circle back to the title, what have we concluded??? that the economy is hurting collecting or, that there are collectors who are seen as weird by some for what they wish to collect and why???

I suppose, maybe both. for all the gripes about price the majority are still on here posting and buying so, it looks like its just the same old same old. Ten years from now the topics will probably still be the same
Mitch

 

[Currahee Chris]

Hey Mitch-

my conclusion is that this hobby is as healthy as ever. Manufacturers may not be as bold as they once were with stepping forward and creating completely new ranges but in the end, things are just fine. Personally, it really defys all logic but I just chalk it up to the fact that this is a real niche market which has a lot of elasticity in demand and that gives it the ability to survive. I also believe the profile of the average consumer (retired, avid interest in history, modest disposable monthly income) is the biggest key here. I am not sure if in 25-35 years if the profile of the average retire at that point (ie us) would be able to support it- I just think that our generation- the almost 40's {sm4}- represent a significant decline in history or toy soldier interest and if this recession and this hobby collided in 2035, it would probably be a different story.

Good, bad or indifferent, I believe all the companies are quite healthy and the rumors of their demise are greatly exaggerated. For the consumer, it's an all you can eat buffett with plenty of choices on the menu- and I for one am having a HUGE helping of Romans!! {sm4}

BTW- Trooper- I have in fact given some serious thought to painting my own!! I'm telling you there won't be a worse looking band of ragtag misfits in such disheveled looking kit on the planet!! {sm4} But, in the end, they will be all mine!! lol

STANDS ALONE!!
CC

 

[Currahee Chris]

The more I think on the subject of this thread and where I stand collecting wise, I know for a fact that I have hit the ceiling as far as price points are concerned with me, irrespective of who the manufacturer is, these are the thresholds I really see as the upper limits for me:

individual soldiers- not to exceed $35/ trooper
Mounted figures- not a lot of experience in buying these though I would say not to exceed $90 or so

Vehicles- well, I have bought the figarti Abrams at $239. Collectors Showcase WW2 AFV price points are still in my league, everyone else is now out of it. Will be neat to see where TGM price points stabilize.

Going forward, I see myself getting 1 WW2 AFV a year and maybe enough troops for a squad, Modern forces, with the exception of a Bradlyer release, will just monitor ebay for troops. Otherwise, it's pedal to the metal with Romans. And with the influx of Romans this year, I really don't feel the pressure to buy like I have in the past.

I setup my WW2 table this past weekend with my dad and I have enough stuff to fill 2+ full size plywood sheets- really can't see the justification for more. I see the CS Jagdpanther and 88 settling in and 2-3 shermans over the next couple years but that is really it.

Essentially I have sort of run out of space- I don't do figures in "storage". I view myself as very fortunate to have started 12 years ago and could accumulate a sizeable army. I have to admit, I really think I can see the finish line and can envision the day when I won't be collecting anymore. Hard to believe but I have come to that conclusion.........