K & C Bulge Question (1 Viewer)

W

wadepat

Moderator
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
3,231
Gentle Friends,

While I have been collecting toy soldiers for some years, it has only been the past couple of years that I have paid any real attention to K & C figures. Consequently, I am still learning about them and occasionally I have questions about earlier sets that have been produced. Cannonfodder, in his recent thread concerning the UK LiveBid, makes reference to the "1st Series Bulge."

One of the K & C lines that I collect is the present "Battle of the Bulge" series which I now have complete. However, I was unaware that K & C might have produced an earlier series concerned with the Bulge. Am I correct in assuming that there is an earlier series? If so, where might I find information regarding what figures have been produced in the past? I have not seen anyone make reference to this earlier series before Cannonfodder's post, so I am curious if anyone collects these earlier figures.

Thanks for your help!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat
 
He must be talking about the old winter waffen sets that go for alot on ebay and the yanks sets.
 
wadepat,

Check out Sagers Soldiers and Miniatures Website. It's the best resource anywhere on the web regarding previous KC releases.

Specifically earlier BB releases (Germans and Yanks) start on this address:
http://www.toysoldiersusa.com/cgi-l...&subsubcategory=BATTLE OF THE BULGE&offset=10

Some of the items depicted in the diorama picture borrowed liberally from earlier DD releases (e.g. GMC Cargo trucks).

Enjoy,

Carlos
 
Sorry about the delay in replying Pat: time-zones and football (soccer). Most of the 12 Winter versions of the Waffen SS sets were intended for use as Eastern Front sets but 3 American sets were also released to complement these as a Bulge series, and they were referenced as YA01, YA02 and YA03. The machine-gunner and some of the other figures look like repaints/resculpts from the DD, IWJ and VN series. Sager's site is useful if you want to look at the original promotional brochures.

In this attachment the YA01 set is displayed beside the WS14(w) StuG III, which shows the interchangability of the WS(w) sets to nice effect. However, many of the Winter sets would be specifically intended to use exclusively with the RA sets, eg in WS17(w) it'd appear that one German has a captured Russian PPSh-41

Regards,
Joe
 

Attachments

  • YA01.jpg
    YA01.jpg
    53.3 KB · Views: 252
Alex, Carlos, and Joe,

Thanks for the clarification of the term "1st series Bulge." Unfortunately, as is often the case with me, new information leads to new questions. Perhaps you could shed some more light on my new confusion.

Are the WS (w) sets, which apparently were to be conceived to be Eastern Front sets, also considered to be BB sets even though they have a different product designation (WS (w) vs. BB)? I understand that the WS (w) sets could easily be used in a Bulge diorama, but since they were originally intented to be Eastern Front sets, are they not really a separate catagory?

Also, since the earlier Winter Americans (my term) carry a YA designation, are they considered genuine Bulge sets? Or, are they simply winter figures and not truly Bulge series figures?

Finally, in my opening post, I mentioned that I own the complete Battle of the Bulge series, meaning I own all those presently on the market as BB figures. Am I making a misleading statement to say I own the complete Battle of the Bulge series?

Any additional clarification you can provide to help me understand the issue will be greatly appreciated. And,...thanks so much for what you have already provided!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat
 
Pat
I would consider the WS (W) series and the YA series to be seperate sets from the current BOB series.
As you know the earlier K&C sets which include the above YA & WS(W) do not meet todays standards, so that alone would make them seperate.
I have all the YA & WS(S), except the tiger & stug, and would not put them together.
Gary
 
Dear Pat,

If you look on Bill Sager's site, you will also see Andy's first U.S. Battle of the Bulge vehicle, an extremely limited (10-15 ever made) winter version of the IWJ13 Sherman tank. Sold only by Tony Ciccarello of the Toy Soldier Gallery (Andy's first ever dealer) it was listed as IWJ13(w).

I pulled mine out of the original box for the first time for this year's Symposium, alongside the white winter version of the T34 sold only by Tony at about the same time.

Regards,

Louis
 
Hi Guys,

Re the above question…Originally all of our early “Winter” Germans were conceived for the “Russian Front” – after a very short while I realized that with one or two exceptions they could be easily transferred to the “Western Front” – especially for cold weather fighting.

I also recognized that they required an “enemy” to fight…hence the original “Yanks” series. These couple of “Battle of the Bulge” sets are among my own favourite early K&C sets. Of course, compared to today they’re a wee bit crude but there is a certain charm to them (at least in my eyes) – I specially like the GI with the dog set which I think is pure K&C!

When they were first released they were modestly successful but did not set the world on fire. We did a nice little diorama scene using our original Normandy Village…a few old GMC trucks and heaps of imitation snow (thanks to Dept. 56).

As Louis mentioned we even did a few “Winterized” Shermans for my old pal Tony Ciccarello of the Toy Soldier Gallery. What’s nice about all of these old “winter” sets is to see the Genesis of an idea and how, over the years, K&C has developed it and, I hope, improved it.

By the by I know a few collectors who display all B of B K&C figures, past and present, together. It’s all a matter personal taste.

Best wishes and …happy collecting!

Andy C
 
Gary, Louis, and Andy,

I really appreciate all the great information you are providing me. It gives me a much clearer understanding of the history of the development of the Battle of the Bulge series. Now, let me see if I follow all of this.

1. The WS(w) series was intended to be a Russian Front series.

2. After the series was being produced, Andy noted that the figures could also be seen as Battle of the Bulge figures.

3. If the WS(w) figures were "transferred" to the Western Front, they needed allied forces to oppose them. Hence, the YA (Yank) series.

4. Because of items 2 and 3 above, the two series, WS(w) and YA, are seen as "1st series Bulge" figures.

Is my understanding correct?

If so, then is it accurate for me to say that I have the "2nd Series Bulge" complete? Might it also be accurate to say that I own all the sets that have a BB set designation? I know that new German figures will be released later this year, but it is fun to say that I have a series complete, at least to date. My concern is simply that I want to be accurate in describing my collection, hopefully, without getting too wordy.

Again, thanks for all the wonderful information. It deepens my understanding and appreciation of K & C history and figures!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat
 
Pat, I would say you have the complete BOB sets if you have all the current sets.
I would not include the WS W or Yanks in the BOB mix, again inmy mind they are a different series.
Gary
 
Pat,
To further Andy's comments, I recall at OTSN one year him coming across the hall from his room to mine and telling me he had a new display he wanted me to see.

I walked into his room and there up against the window was the spectacular K & C Village all decked out with snow, Winter American and German troops and vehicles as well as the above mentioned Sherman. The thing that struck me the most was the fact that it was a cloudy, rainy day and the view from the window provided a perfect background for that awesome display.

What a great site that was to see for me. The Battle of the Bulge is my second favorite series aside from the Normandy sets, with the Pacific range being a close third..........
 
wadepat said:
Gary, Louis, and Andy,

I really appreciate all the great information you are providing me. It gives me a much clearer understanding of the history of the development of the Battle of the Bulge series. Now, let me see if I follow all of this.

1. The WS(w) series was intended to be a Russian Front series.

2. After the series was being produced, Andy noted that the figures could also be seen as Battle of the Bulge figures.

3. If the WS(w) figures were "transferred" to the Western Front, they needed allied forces to oppose them. Hence, the YA (Yank) series.

4. Because of items 2 and 3 above, the two series, WS(w) and YA, are seen as "1st series Bulge" figures.

Is my understanding correct?

If so, then is it accurate for me to say that I have the "2nd Series Bulge" complete? Might it also be accurate to say that I own all the sets that have a BB set designation? I know that new German figures will be released later this year, but it is fun to say that I have a series complete, at least to date. My concern is simply that I want to be accurate in describing my collection, hopefully, without getting too wordy.

Again, thanks for all the wonderful information. It deepens my understanding and appreciation of K & C history and figures!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat
Click to expand...

Essentially yes, and Bill Sager lists the Winter series that way under the Battle of the Bulge section. However, I wouldn't call them the Second Bulge series because I don't think that appellation is made. Because the Winter series is quite rare and it's neither Russian nor really Bulge, it's just WS Winter to me. BTW, the new German Bulge series has a different lettering/numbering system than the first Winters series, WS v. BBG.
 
Hey Guys,
A little clarification for you. I placed the Winter series under the Battle of the Bulge section because in the Stalingrad brochure in 2000 the Russians, Germans and Americans are all listed and mixed throughout the brochure under the headings of Stalingrad and Battle of the Bulge. It could have gone both ways but I wanted to include the Germans in the Bulge area because there were only 3 sets of Americans to list and I thought they felt lonely:)

The winter series was meant to cover a multitude of differnet battles and now Andy seems to be breaking them down into a specific section a little more than he used to.

Bill Sager
 
Wow! You guys really know how to clear up my confusion! :D Now, let me attempt to summarize all this feedback one more time. Lets see,...

1. According to Andy, the WS(w) series was originally to be an Eastern Front series, consequently, the winter garb. However, Andy thought that they might be "transferred" to the Western Front. Hmmmm. Were they ever transferred?

2. Again, according to Andy, if they were "transferred," they would need some allied opponents. Therefore, Andy created the YA series to be available if the WS(w) were, if fact, transferred.

3. Because the WS(w) figures might be transferred, and, because the WS(w) figures would have to have some opponents, the WS(w) and the YA series can legitimately be called the "1st Bulge series."

4. However, according to Gary, it is okay for me to say that I have the complete Bulge series because the WS(w) and the YA are, if fact, a different series from the genuine Bulge series. I assume Gary's conclusion is based on the fact that we do not know if the WS(w) figures were really transferred to the Western Front and, if not, the YA series would be an orphan group and not really a legitimate Bulge series. Hmmmm.

5. According to Warrior, the WS(w) and the YA figures were all transferred to the OTSN show on a rainy day. Does this mean they are, in reality, "Rainy Day in Chicago" figures and not 1st Bulge or Eastern Front figures at all?

6. Brad adds that the figures are quite rare and neither Russian Front nor Bulge figures. In part, this seems to be because the more recent figures carry a BB designation, which clearly identifies the newer figures as the only legitimate Bulge figures.

7. Finally, Bill Sager tells us he lumps the YA series in the Bulge section of his website because that is where he put the Germans. Hmmmm.

Now it is all very clear to me. I can say I have the Bulge series complete simply because I want to say that and because I have all the BB designated figures in my collection. We simply do not know where the WS(w) and YA figures were transferred or if they were even transferred at all. If they were not transferred, then they certainly are not Bulge figures!

Rest assured, when I suffer another bout of confusion, I will certainly bring my questions to this forum for clarification! :)

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :)
 
To me, they're just the Winter series, repaints of the equivalent issues in the WS series, with the same number, except that they have the W designation. So WS 13 is the same as WSW 13 or WS 13W, just repainted for winter scenes. Here's a scene combining both.
 

Attachments

  • Bulge Germans 001.jpg
    Bulge Germans 001.jpg
    44.9 KB · Views: 194
Hitler did transfer tanks and troops from the Eastern Front to start his new winter offensive in the west in Dec. 1944. New Divisions were formed with new names and numbers. This was done to miss lead anyone that have got wind of what was going on. The Russians would think the old units were still in the east intact
 
Andy often does more than one release of soldiers on a subject, sometimes with higher numbers on the same designation (such as the Afrika Corps), soemtimes with a new numbering system (such as the 8th Army, which was originally designated "SAS" because the first few sets added to the wood and resin 8th Army bren gun carrier and Quad Gun and Limber portrayed the SAS and Long Range Desert group). I think that the YA sets, which were advertised as specifically representing the battle of the bulge, and the Winter Sherman (IWJ13(w)) are clearly part of K&C's Battle of the Bulge series, and will be listed as such in the book. Anybody, other than Andy, who feels otherwise, will have to take my word for it (Andy of course can tell me to list it separately and I will).
 
I prefer the Waffen SS guys in Summer outfits and was looking for some reasons as to why the new WS-79 Hummel was a winter version, and this thread started by Pat seems a good start. But I still can't work out the K & C numbering system and where it's heading.

I was wondering if any of you guys have an idea as why the Winter Hummel is in the WS (Waffen SS) series rather than the BBG (Battle of the Bulge - German) series.

Of course it won't matter to me what series the Hummel is in as I'll get it anyway, I'm just curious.
 
Oz,

I think it's in WS because it's not considered Battle of the Bulge but just a winter series (Eastern Front), not specifically BoB.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Community platform by XenForo® © 2010-2024 XenForo Ltd.
Back
Top