KC v CS - Battle of the Scots Greys (1 Viewer)

[Gazza]

KC v CS - Scots Greys

When CS recently released their Scots Greys there were some studio comparison shots of them alongside each other that were interesting. As I recently got a number of CS to add to my KC diorama I thought I would take some shots and have the following observations.

Background

I believe KC released their Scots Greys in 2006 and CS is far more recent at 2010; I think during this period product development has moved on. However, KC has not retired their Scots Greys and in fact these will be subject to new pricing in 2011.

Cavalryman

The facial sculpting is far better on CS; as is the overall body which appears to have more definition, be more dynamic and animated. The attention to detail is more distinct in CS from the spurs to the jacket cuffs. The CS weapons are far more detailed from the firing mechanism of the musket to the sword hilt. I prefer the KC uniform painting though; it is brighter and whilst I appreciate ‘parade ground’ uniforms were not the order of the day at Waterloo the KC style makes them more distinct. Another interesting difference is the hats - no idea who is right – KC looks large and CS small.

Horses

I am no expert here but I would say CS horses appear larger than KC and as the Scots Greys were Heavy Cavalry I really like that. The sculpting on the CS appears better, the mouth is closed (I understand that is a point Bill always makes) and the bridal detailing is again superior. The biggest difference though is in the colouring and CS is a far darker grey; to me it feels too dark and so again on the painting I prefer KC.

Compatibility

I think that in a diorama below the CS and KC work fine together and are compatible. In a smaller display I think the size differences would be more noticeable as KC appears smaller and potentially undersized (never thought someone would say that about KC!!!). The CS pieces do appear to weigh more when handling them.

I do though think CS have missed a trick by not releasing a Sgt Ewart set because I think this set from KC was, and still is, one of the best stand alone sets they have done. I also prefer the KC collapsing horse set and chose to pass on the CS one.

Price Point (UK specific)

My KC collection was built up a couple of years ago when I believe they were competitively priced; I understand that the KC’s Scots Grey Charging in January 2011 will be £80.77 and yet CS is only £60. That is a massive variance in pricing for what I believe are comparable products. KC want 33% more for a product with less detailed sculpting.

Winner – Collectors Showcase by at least 16 furlongs !!!

CS wins for me because the sculpting is considerably better; the figures appear more dynamic; the detailing is superior and the pricing means it is far better value for money.

Any thoughts - Gazza

 

[Jackaroo]

Gazza,

Whilst I don’t personally collect NAPs from CS or K&C, I enjoy reading other collectors views/comparisons on products. Whilst at the end of the day an individuals collection is very much a personal thing, reviews such as yours can really assist a collector who may not have access to certain ranges. It never hurts to listen to someone’s opinion!!!

Thanks for taking the time to put your opinion out there, Merry Xmas … Alby

 

[marco55]

Yes I know a lot will holler at comparing different brands this is what the forums about,helping each other.
Mark

 

[tdubel]

Interesting thread.

Here is my take, I don't collect either in this arena (thank god, enough is enough!).

BUT, I think the CS horses on this comparison are nicer and more appealing to my eye.

The sculpting of the humans is a very each his own thought. I personally like K&C's style, the CS ones still look to "harsh", now some of you say my harsh is your realism and that's fair. Just my 2 cents.

Again, regarding CS"s forthcoming Patton Command Car, from what I saw, that Patton is dead on!

TD

 

[marco55]

I think the clothing on the CS figures look more like cloth.Must be that new technique they have.
Mark

 

[trooper]

It is hard to tell from the photographs, but it would appear that the K&C troopers have been given gold lace and caplines which is inaccurate. I know that their trumpeter, although not shown here, is wildly inaccurate showing a uniform that was never worn at that time. So my vote would go to CS.

 

[Obee]

From what I see the uniform details on CS are way off.... the troopers had yellow lace not gold, that was for officers. Same goes for the chords on the bearskin.

CS horses are too grey, as 'real grey' is much lighter like K&C.

I may be biased towards K&C, but I have them already and wouldn't buy more CS to build up numbers, but its great to see them lined up like this, well done, and thanks for the opertunity of a comparison, I'd love to see more

John

 

[Currahee Chris]

I cannot comment on the historical accuracy of the unis as I am not a Naps guy. I can say that the KC figures always look more visually appealing as it seems their colors are brighter and more vibrant. That said, I feel the muted tones of the CS figures are more realistic of someone who has been in the field, mud and the crud

 

[jazzeum]

Interesting thread.

Here is my take, I don't collect either in this arena (thank god, enough is enough!).

BUT, I think the CS horses on this comparison are nicer and more appealing to my eye.

The sculpting of the humans is a very each his own thought. I personally like K&C's style, the CS ones still look to "harsh", now some of you say my harsh is your realism and that's fair. Just my 2 cents.

Again, regarding CS"s forthcoming Patton Command Car, from what I saw, that Patton is dead on!

TD

I'm with Tom on this one. I don't collect Napoleonics but the CS figures look a little gaunt but to each his own. Also, let's not forget the K & C version is a few years old.

The one thing I don't like on both is the expression of the horses. I would think that the adrenalin would be flowing and they would show more excitement, if you will. In that vein, the K & C expression seems to come closer to what I imagine would be happening. Of course, I'm no horse expert but just my thoughts.

However, a big thank you to Gazza for taking the time to do this. Much appreciated

 

[Mitch]

I am not a Nap collector have a few flag sets but only as I like the flag carriers. I was interested in a comment I read the other day and this thread will be able to answer it for me and it was that K&C are moving to far away from realism in this area.

Is this right?? as an appreciator of the releases rather than an avid collector I can't see how they are not realistic in appearance.
Mitch

 

[Spitfrnd]

Thank you for a most interesting and comprehensive review. Your photos and descriptions are most insightful. I have only seen the K&C Greys in the flesh but using your photos I have the following thoughts.

Cavalrymen: From the photos I quite agree that the CS versions are more animated and offer more definition. You can see that particularly well in the faces where the K&C versions offer less distinct features, almost if they were done from a blurred photo. The same appears true for the weapons. However, as has been a problem for CS, some of their dragoon faces are a bit on the harsh side and seem to reflect much older troops than was the norm for the unit but I think these faces are still much improved over their earlier Napoleonic offerings. The poses for both are interesting and reasonably realistic. The CS poses are obviously more dramatic. As to the uniforms, each has some noted inaccuracies and both are pretty close overall. The hat size seems to favor CS since most of my sources indicate the Greys’ bearskins were on the small side at this time. My sources also suggest that the tone of the CS colors is more appropriate for the field.

Horses: Here there is no contest. The sculpting of the CS horses offers much more definition and is more accurate. Besides the mouths, the CS horse leg positions are also generally more realistic and the faces much more accurate. For color, K&C is generally more correct but both are partly right and wrong. So called “grey” horses come in many variations from near black to all white with virtually no marks. Besides genetics, age is a large variable with younger greys being darker and older ones lighter, eventually becoming near white. So one could say that K&C caught one color period or variation and CS another. Of course the odds of having a full regiment or even troop with perfectly matched grey coloration are rather small, especially on campaign so in this respect both are somewhat wrong. I can say that I have no idea what the coloration on the K&C horse hooves is supposed to be but it is not natural for any horse I have ever seen. For those interested in how the horses would show their excitement, it is not through their mouth positions. That is a human characteristic that does not transfer. No doubt horses in a charge would be jazzed but it would be manifested in their ear positions, eyes and nasal apertures and body language and generally NOT their mouth positions. For the horses tack, again the edge goes to CS for better detail and definition.

From these choices, if your preference is for detail and accuracy, I would agree with Gazza that CS offers the better option, especially given the price. The one reservation would be the size. CS figures are already on the large side so having horses and figures even larger seems a bit unfortunate. Of course none of this means that anyone cannot enjoy either is that is their orientation for their own reasons.

 

[Currahee Chris]

.....So called “grey” horses come in many variations from near black to all white with virtually no marks.

Besides genetics, age is a large variable with younger greys being darker and older ones lighter, eventually becoming near white.

No doubt horses in a charge would be jazzed but it would be manifested in their ear positions, eyes and nasal apertures and body language and generally NOT their mouth positions. For the horses tack, again the edge goes to CS for better detail and definition.

Thanks for the insights sir. I spoke with my 10 year old daughter on these- aren't these "Dapple" greys?? They are her favorite. She said the same thing you did about horses being excited. Question- weren't these horses trained or bred or whatever to be a bit more fearless to handle charges? Blinders, etC?

also- the description of aging hair- isn't that sort of like people too?? We start out with darker hair, then it goes white or goes away alltogether???

 

[Spitfrnd]

Thanks for the insights sir. I spoke with my 10 year old daughter on these- aren't these "Dapple" greys?? They are her favorite. She said the same thing you did about horses being excited. Question- weren't these horses trained or bred or whatever to be a bit more fearless to handle charges? Blinders, etC?

also- the description of aging hair- isn't that sort of like people too?? We start out with darker hair, then it goes white or goes away alltogether???

Always listen to your daughter mate; especially about horses. Yes these are (supposed to be) dapple greys. Actually though that is a stage in some grey horses, not a coat type per se. It maybe be described as a coat with dark rings with lighter hairs on the inside of the ring. Typically it occurs between the very dark young stage and the nearly white older stage. Here is a fair example and as I think you can see, neither company really got this right:

Interestingly the progression in color for greys is different from the normal greying of hair color in humans and even other horses. While both are age related, the progression in greys occurs much more quickly and is nearly universal for that coat color. Interestingly, even greys in the older white stage or what we would call early middle age, have black skin underneath. True white horses have pink skin.

Yes cavalry horses of the period were both bred and trained for combat but they were still horses with a very strong survival instinct. They would all be excited in a charge, as they are even now when galloping, especially in a group. That is why so many charges ended up getting out of hand; the combination of the horses natural excitement and poorly trained or disciplined troopers and officers. This was particularly a British problem (read Galloping at Every Thing by Fletcher) Blinders would not have been effective since they only restrict vision to the side and actually would impair the horses ability to do its job once it had closed on the enemy.

 

[jazzeum]

Shows what I know about horses. I got kicked in the stomach by one when I was 8 and that's about the closest I want to get to them again.

However, although I know you have a pet peeve about the open mouth, wouldn't their eyes show some excitement or something. The faces on the K & C and CS just appear rather docile, like Chris' daughter was taking them out for a little canter.

 

[Currahee Chris]

....... like Chris' daughter was taking them out for a little canter.

She rides em like she stole em Brad

No, she is actually quite gentle when handling the horses.

Bill- thanks for the writeup- one of the greatest joys of my life has been watching my children learn something and then they turn and teach me- I am not talking about pre-pubescent "I know it all and you're a dumb adult" phase but the- "I really want to learn about this and really care a lot about it"- phase.

Just got a call from my wife a couple hours ago- the restoration company had to throw out her Schleich horse stable from Christmas last year- it was unrecoverable from our house fire. Thankfully we can get her another....my military history library.....'nother story . Now it's history (fortunately it was the books I already read, but there were a lot of signed editions in there).

 

[Spitfrnd]

I am truly sorry for your early horse experience Brad. I know all to well how a childhood trauma can bias your perceptions for potentially your whole life. Ironically thanks to my parents' misguided efforts to make me ride as a pre-schooler, I didn't ride a horse until my mid 20s and only seriously 10 years later.

There is no more gentle and kind creature on this planet than a horse but, as one of the oldest prey species, they react quickly and instinctively to perceived threats and remember the bad things that happen to them much more readily than the good. Most likely the horse that kicked you did so for that reason. Like people, there are some true sociopaths but much fewer as a percentage than for our species. Too bad you are not closer or I could introduce you to my 1500 pound lap dogs.

You are correct, as I tried to say the horses in a charge would show their excitement. Yes it would be pretty obvious in their eyes, nostrils, ears, head positions and the wrinkles in the skin on their faces. You are also correct that neither version of the greys conveys that. The gapping mouths in not just a peeve of mine though, it is simply wrong in context.

Chris, I remain very sorry for your fire loses. I am glad though that you can replace your daughters Schleich horse stable.

 

[Napoleon1er]

I say WBritain-have both new sets and they far surpass both companies in quality AND price. The sculpting is incredibly detailed, and the painting is great, and the price is in the range of $75...or 50 GBP...anyway, there are only two so far, so if I were making a similar display, I would definatly give them a chance....

 

[thebritfarmer]

I say WBritain-have both new sets and they far surpass both companies in quality AND price. The sculpting is incredibly detailed, and the painting is great, and the price is in the range of $75...or 50 GBP...anyway, there are only two so far, so if I were making a similar display, I would definatly give them a chance....

Any chance of some snaps?

 

[Spitfrnd]

Any chance of some snaps?

Yes please by all means. I haven't seen any shots of Britains Greys and they are not listed at TF?????

 

[thebritfarmer]

Yes please by all means. I haven't seen any shots of Britains Greys and they are not listed at TF?????

Bill,

One was the Greys & Gordons which was limited and sold out already and the other is an exclusive for Manchester House. They are both on the WB site.