King & Country Dispatches -- July 2018 (2 Viewers)

[semperrandyfi]

Perhaps I used the wrong term... A War Crime, by definition, is a violation of international law. The word I shold have used is "atrocity". Dresden was primarily a civilian target. The mass killing of civilians most certainly is an atrocity. So was the bombing of London, Coventry and any other attack on a target that is primarily civilian. Some atrocities can be argued as necessary; I would suggest that the atomic bombings of cities with large civilian populations (ie Hiroshima and Nagasaki) were atrocities but essential to save vast numbers of lives that would have been lost on both sides during a potential invasion of Japan. Same goes for Sherman's March to the Sea. Dresden on the other hand? Sounds more like the RAF getting payback for the Blitz as opposed to having any legitimate military purpose.

Churchill 'sacrificed'Coventry in order to keep the "Ultra Secret"..exactly that.The Russians insisted Dresden be torched as it was a railway center.
Ain't war hell?

 

[Gazza]

Perhaps I used the wrong term... A War Crime, by definition, is a violation of international law. The word I shold have used is "atrocity". Dresden was primarily a civilian target. The mass killing of civilians most certainly is an atrocity. So was the bombing of London, Coventry and any other attack on a target that is primarily civilian. Some atrocities can be argued as necessary; I would suggest that the atomic bombings of cities with large civilian populations (ie Hiroshima and Nagasaki) were atrocities but essential to save vast numbers of lives that would have been lost on both sides during a potential invasion of Japan. Same goes for Sherman's March to the Sea. Dresden on the other hand? Sounds more like the RAF getting payback for the Blitz as opposed to having any legitimate military purpose.

Again I am not so sure I would use atrocity given its modern interpretation. I think WW2 was the first war where Clausewitz’s Total War game to realisation and man had the mechanics to do it.

I am not sure the focus was on civilians but to destroy the morale of the German nation and associated war machinery. Dresden had military factories, command centre for East and key railway logistics.

War is hell and cruel; always has been.

As to revenge for Coventry; I am sure the British population had no qualms about giving it back to the Germans. That is human nature. Coventry was one of many cities to suffer; as in fact was Dresden just one of many as part of joint RAF / USAAF operations.

 

[Gazza]

Churchill 'sacrificed'Coventry in order to keep the "Ultra Secret"..exactly that.The Russians insisted Dresden be torched as it was a railway center.
Ain't war hell?

That is the conspiracy theory view.

Interesting article here from BBC on it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11486219


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It's 70 years since Germany launched one of the most devastating bombing raids of World War II, on Coventry. But did Winston Churchill have prior warning of the attack?

It has been claimed in a number of books that the wartime prime minister knew that the city was to be targeted by the German Luftwaffe, but chose to do nothing because it would have alerted Adolf Hitler to the fact the Allies had recently cracked the Nazis' top-secret Enigma codes.

Coventry and its people were sacrificed, the theory goes, "for the greater good" - that is, that the benefits of playing the long game outweighed the short-term costs of leaving the West Midlands city to a terrible fate.

It's not just historians who have written about the so-called Coventry conspiracy, though - it's a theory which lives on to this day.

Jean Taylor spent the night of her 14th birthday in a communal shelter, utterly terrified. Speaking ahead of the 70th anniversary, she said: "The rumour was that they decided to sacrifice the few (in Coventry) to save the many. Nobody has ever confirmed or denied that, and that says a lot."

But was Sir Winston really such a utilitarian - the philosophical term given to those who strive to bring about the greatest gain for the greatest number, even though that means making painful sacrifices?

Or is the explanation far more mundane than the conspiracy theorists believe - that Mr Churchill and his advisors were just as much in the dark about the Germans' Operation Moonlight Sonata as the people who spent the night cowering in their shelters?

The conspiracy theorists argue that Sir Winston chose to sacrifice the city to keep secret Britain's decoding of the Germans' Enigma machine.

Their position initially gained credence during the 1970s with the publishing of several books about the cracking of Enigma.

In his book The Ultra Secret, the former World War II intelligence officer FW Winterbotham recalled how he passed intelligence on to Churchill that Coventry would be the target of the bombing raid a few hours before it took place.

His account has been questioned since by several historians.

But Coventry-born writer Alan Pollock explores the theory in his play One Night In November, currently performing at the city's Belgrade Theatre.

He says an RAF report reveals that by 1500 on the day of the raid - several hours before the bombing began - enemy navigation signals were intersecting over Coventry, indicating an imminent raid.

"By this time, every non-Enigma source of intelligence was also pointing toward the Midlands, and increasingly toward Coventry," he adds.

Pollock also notes that Sir Winston's private secretary, John Martin, subsequently recorded that Churchill received a red box containing details of the raid shortly after 1500. Churchill apparently told Martin a heavy raid on London was predicted, and headed for the capital.

The Coventry Blitz
Eleven hours of relentless bombing began in early evening of 14 November 1940
Three-quarters of city centre destroyed and 550 people killed on first night
Targeted as it was a major manufacturing city
But bombs fell indiscriminately, and this medieval city's cathedral was largely destroyed
Nazis coined the verb Coventrierung (literally, to Coventrate) to describe total annihilation of a city through aerial bombardment
70 stories for 70 years since the Blitz

"Whether John Martin's recollection was accurate, and whatever Churchill's reasons for saying what he did, the only thing we can be pretty certain of is this: that piece of paper could not possibly have carried the information that the beams indicated London," Pollock argues.

However, Terry Charman, senior historian at the Imperial War Museum is sceptical of the conspiracies - arguing that while British intelligence knew Moonlight Sonata was coming, they did not know what would be its target.

Enigma was, Mr Charman says, in its infancy at this stage, and while code-breakers deciphered a reference to "Korn" - the German code name for Coventry - they believed it referred to a radar system rather than a location.

Mr Charman says it is significant that Mr Martin, the only witness to Mr Churchill opening the red box, believed the prime minister "genuinely didn't know that Coventry was to be attacked - he thought London was the target".

The fact that a small air raid did in fact occur in London that night, Mr Charman adds, gives credence to the suggestion that the box really did predict a raid in the capital - and suggests Mr Churchill's haste to return to the city was founded on a genuine desire to be where the action was.

Mr Charman says the RAF did indeed detect the the navigation signals over Coventry, but tried to intercept and then jam them; one theory suggests this failed because the wrong frequency was chosen.

Plus, he argues, there would have been very little the British authorities could have done to protect the people of the city even if they had been forewarned.

"Even if you had put every air raid defence in the country around Coventry it would still have been devastating," he adds. "People prefer to think of things as a conspiracy.

"But even if Churchill had known at that short notice (that Coventry was to be targeted) imagine the logistics of evacuating a city the size of Coventry - it would have been enormous."

 

[Panzer ace]

Again I am not so sure I would use atrocity given its modern interpretation. I think WW2 was the first war where Clausewitz’s Total War game to realisation and man had the mechanics to do it.

I am not sure the focus was on civilians but to destroy the morale of the German nation and associated war machinery. Dresden had military factories, command centre for East and key railway logistics.

War is hell and cruel; always has been.

As to revenge for Coventry; I am sure the British population had no qualms about giving it back to the Germans. That is human nature. Coventry was one of many cities to suffer; as in fact was Dresden just one of many as part of joint RAF / USAAF operations.

The definition of atrocity seems to apply to Dresden, Coventry and any other number of acts:

a·troc·i·ty: an extremely wicked or cruel act, typically one involving physical violence or injury.

 

[Guest]

Again I am not so sure I would use atrocity given its modern interpretation. I think WW2 was the first war where Clausewitz’s Total War game to realisation and man had the mechanics to do it.

I am not sure the focus was on civilians but to destroy the morale of the German nation and associated war machinery. Dresden had military factories, command centre for East and key railway logistics.

War is hell and cruel; always has been.

As to revenge for Coventry; I am sure the British population had no qualms about giving it back to the Germans. That is human nature. Coventry was one of many cities to suffer; as in fact was Dresden just one of many as part of joint RAF / USAAF operations.

There are two great books by Fredrick Taylor which I would recommend, one on Dresden and another on Coventry.

Many cities suffered, I would not go as far as saying it was giving it back to the Germans, but it was war and many people say the war was nearly over so why bomb Dresden, but we only knew that in mid May 1945. At the point in Feb 1945 it was still total war, I could go through the various reason why Dresden was a military target, but will not as it has been shown it was a military target, plus the amount of civilian deaths was exaggerated, I am not demeaning the civilian deaths, but there were less than was reported. Secondly we must not impose our view on people's decisions made in the context of their life/viewpoint at the time, hindsight is a great thing. You have to realise this was getting on for the 6th year of war for many and it was the second time around 30 years this had happened and there may have been a certain feeling that the job must be done to stop the same country/people thinking of doing it again. To make it personal my old PT/unarmed combat instructor used to say if someone tries to hit you then stop them from hitting you and restrain them, but if after you let them go they try to hit you again, them go over the top and destroy their ability to try and hit you, brake something. I think that could have been the viewpoint of military and political leaders at the time. I went to an international conference in Dresden and we went for a drink with a few delegates and the talk got around to the bombing and it was the Dutch and French we had their own take on it, the Dutch delegate had a forthright view and simple said it was not wrong "because they f**king started it". He was from Rotterdam, which may explain his view.

There are other things to take into context, many people thought we would be at war with Russia within a few years after the war, so it was [could be] a geo-political show of strength. The Battle of Bulge only ended about a month earlier, which shock the Allied command and with troop casualties rising the Allies were seeking a knock out and bombing was it.

Another incredible read which is shocking, sad and realistic is Savage Continent: Europe in the Aftermath of World War II by Keith Lowe. which shows for millions the war did not end in May 1945, the treatment of the Jews by the Dutch, French, Hungarians and the Germans was an atrocity. Hundreds of thousands starved in Holland, Italy and Greece, no matter what religion they were.

 

[Guest]

The captive and tortured cavalry man is really over the top! Not in a good way but I guess there are some collectors with a sadistic bent.
Makes me sick to think how these captors were tortured to death.

Does this mean you think the same about the new Vietnam series? After My Lia, 300 to 500 massacred there
Indian Wars - there were massacres committed by all sides.
WW2 - too many to mention, but the little known torture and murder of U-546's survivors by Americans

The list goes on and on, but I would rather have the realism in life than the 1940s to 1960s 'Hollywood version' of war, where people get shot and there is a little wound and they die quickly or manage to suffer in silence and say something heroic. I would rather have the 1970s to current versions such as Saving Private Ryan, The Pacific and Hacksaw Ridge, if it shows people what it is like and could sway sending other people out to die..........

Note you are American and it is an 'American' being tortured........did you complain about the German being tortured in the WW2 set or the Roman looking to cut the Native's throat or event the Saracen holding up the Crusaders head in the MK series? We only complain about it when it against 'us' or those like us, there was a complain about the K & C set with the Tommy pissing on the picture of Hitler, it was a German living in the Mid-West [cannot find it on the forum], he complained about the pissing on what was the official leader of Germany at the time............ I thought really, that is your moral standard...................

Lets just collect our hobby, buy what you like and just do not bother with what you don't.

 

[King & Country]

Does this mean you think the same about the new Vietnam series? After My Lia, 300 to 500 massacred there
Indian Wars - there were massacres committed by all sides.
WW2 - too many to mention, but the little known torture and murder of U-546's survivors by Americans

The list goes on and on, but I would rather have the realism in life than the 1940s to 1960s 'Hollywood version' of war, where people get shot and there is a little wound and they die quickly or manage to suffer in silence and say something heroic. I would rather have the 1970s to current versions such as Saving Private Ryan, The Pacific and Hacksaw Ridge, if it shows people what it is like and could sway sending other people out to die..........

Note you are American and it is an 'American' being tortured........did you complain about the German being tortured in the WW2 set or the Roman looking to cut the Native's throat or event the Saracen holding up the Crusaders head in the MK series? We only complain about it when it against 'us' or those like us, there was a complain about the K & C set with the Tommy pissing on the picture of Hitler, it was a German living in the Mid-West [cannot find it on the forum], he complained about the pissing on what was the official leader of Germany at the time............ I thought really, that is your moral standard...................

Lets just collect our hobby, buy what you like and just do not bother with what you don't.

Plenty of excellent points from yourself Mr. 'W' and several other contributors...The one thing however that we can all agree upon is that 'War is Hell!'...No argument on that simple point...

As far as depicting certain events graphically in toy soldier/military miniature form...Every company chooses what or who they want to replicate in miniature based on their own moral compass...and particular interests.

As many of you already know yours truly and K&C have certain boundaries and borders we do cross and others we don't... As the cofounder and creative director ultimately 'the buck stops here'... And I accept full responsibility for what gets released under the K&C banner.

Like many of you I love history in all its many shapes and guises...There's also an incredible number of people and events from history, Ancient and Modern, that I want to replicate in miniature and to be sure someone, somewhere will find something to object to...And that's fine by me too...It's still mostly a free world...

So, live and let live, buy what you like...collect what you like...and ignore the rest.
Best wishes and happy collecting!
Andy.

P.S. One aspect of our monthly release schedule 'Dispatches' which I really enjoy...It usually gets a lively debate going!!!

 

[nysoldiers]

Does this mean you think the same about the new Vietnam series? After My Lia, 300 to 500 massacred there
Indian Wars - there were massacres committed by all sides.
WW2 - too many to mention, but the little known torture and murder of U-546's survivors by Americans

The list goes on and on, but I would rather have the realism in life than the 1940s to 1960s 'Hollywood version' of war, where people get shot and there is a little wound and they die quickly or manage to suffer in silence and say something heroic. I would rather have the 1970s to current versions such as Saving Private Ryan, The Pacific and Hacksaw Ridge, if it shows people what it is like and could sway sending other people out to die..........

Note you are American and it is an 'American' being tortured........did you complain about the German being tortured in the WW2 set or the Roman looking to cut the Native's throat or event the Saracen holding up the Crusaders head in the MK series? We only complain about it when it against 'us' or those like us, there was a complain about the K & C set with the Tommy pissing on the picture of Hitler, it was a German living in the Mid-West [cannot find it on the forum], he complained about the pissing on what was the official leader of Germany at the time............ I thought really, that is your moral standard...................

Lets just collect our hobby, buy what you like and just do not bother with what you don't.

Just to correct your assumption, I draw the line to purchasing "toy soldiers" depicting torture on anyone. I have stated on the forum that I would not collect figures with decapitated heads and grievous wounds. I understand your feeling about the early movies and TV shows downplaying the realities of war but can a movie or TV show ever really depict the horrors of war. True that some films like Private Ryan are graphic and disturbing but I don't know if that impact stays with the viewer. When you see the wounds and agony up close that certainly will change a person's perspective on war. Maybe taking families to Veteran's hospitals will make them think more realistically about wars.
My personal opinion is that depicting torture with toy soldiers does more to trivialize the violence and is more difficult to explain to young people.
Documentaries, speakers with personal experiences, books and teachers are probably the more practical ways to explain the cruelties of war. Toy soldiers can create the primary interest in history for young students, I have seen this first hand many times. I created a diorama on the Battle of Brooklyn for the New York Historical Society Museum which thousands of young students viewed and talked to many of them. The diorama was very successful in getting students interested in the American Revolution and many sought out books to learn more about the conflict and times they lived in. Showing mutilated figures would turn off many young people, their parents and teachers.
I will say it again. collect what you want and air your constructive concerns here on the forum for healthy and lively debate.

 

[WeekendWarrior]

For the record, my personal take is this...

I have seen death in person. I'm a Police Officer and an Infantry Officer in the National Guard... I am no stranger to violence. My Toy Soldiers are a nice hobby, a pleasant display on my desk to accompany my favorite movies and to annoy my girlfriend. That being said, I personally wouldn't purchase an overly gruesome piece to add to my collection. I do like the Apache set, but unfortunately it's a little too macabre for my pocketbook. That being said, it truly does epitomize the old adage... "Keep the last bullet for yourself!"

 

[arnhem44mad]

These dispatches threads get more entertaining every month!

Scott

 

[Sahara]

KING & COUNTRY DISPATCHES
July 2018​

View attachment 234268

AVAILABLE: Early July [/I]

Outstanding job on these sets! Thinking outside the box and bringing something a little different to the table.