King & Country Dispatches -- July 2018 (2 Viewers)

I really don't believe that Mr Nelson or any manufacturer has to apologise for the poses or the subjects his chooses for his figures. Last month T. Gunn launched a captive ready to be decapitated by his captor. Is this over the top or too much ? Just realistic figures and something that happened million of times. We must not forget that we, the collectors , ask for realism. We all know the photo of a Japanese officer ready to cut if the head of an Australian (I think) prisoner. If Mr Nelson decides to make this as part of his FoB series, would this be over the top and must explain or apologise once more or it would be just stunning? I don't know. I just collect and I don't criticise.
All the best
Thanasis

Fantastic post.

While it is easy to forget the "soldier" part of "toy soldier" the fact is that this hobby depicts one of the most brutal aspects of mankind. Every manufacturer has walked the fine line between product and reality. To single out K&C is both baseless and uninformed.
 
I really don't believe that Mr Nelson or any manufacturer has to apologise for the poses or the subjects his chooses for his figures. Last month T. Gunn launched a captive ready to be decapitated by his captor. Is this over the top or too much ? Just realistic figures and something that happened million of times. We must not forget that we, the collectors , ask for realism. We all know the photo of a Japanese officer ready to cut if the head of an Australian (I think) prisoner. If Mr Nelson decides to make this as part of his FoB series, would this be over the top and must explain or apologise once more or it would be just stunning? I don't know. I just collect and I don't criticise.
All the best
Thanasis

The forum is a place to comment, suggest, recommend, debate and criticize toy soldiers. As long as it is done constructively and respectfully what's the problem? Some people are defensive and thin skinned when it comes to their favorite maker. Sometimes makers are too sensitive when someone criticizes or comments on an item, choice of range or release timing. I personally find it interesting and enjoyable to hear collectors express their feelings and suggestions about the products we all collect.
As Andy has stated many times there are many different types of collector with different tastes and interests. If you don't like something don't buy it but also make your opinions heard so the makers and collectors can have some input.
We all know that our hobby, passion or business comes with some controversy or misunderstandings. People who have viewed my collection sometimes ask if I am glorifying war or trivializing acts of violence. I think of my collecting as acknowledging historical events, appreciating the artistry of the products and sometimes a link with my childhood. I have used toy soldiers and dioramas as a teaching tool for my children and grandchildren and young students in general.
As far as the subject matter, it is a personal choice. I won't collect Nazis on parade and poses that depict decapitation, torture or gruesome wounds.
I think there is a line when it comes to showing your collections to children and some more sensitive adults (e.g. families of soldiers who suffered wounds or death).
Showing a US cavalryman being tortured turns me off and I would never show it to my grandchildren.....very hard to explain why mankind can be so cruel. Eventually they will learn about the atrocities performed throughout history. Would collectors purchase a "Joan of Arc" burning on the stake? I think there are limits to what we try to depict in a toy soldier.
My reaction is the same for all forms of art.
Now all this said, Andy and other makers feel that each collector makes his own choices.
Like I have said before K&C is a leader in our hobby and I have collected their figures from the very beginning (over 35 years I think). The vast majority of their products are appealing to me and I appreciate their diversity and creativity. Heh, there are some items I don't prefer and a few that make me question their thinking.
Andy is not shy about answering our concerns and again that is what this forum is for.
 
I was just looking back through this month's dispatches and noticed the jousting knights. They both have a connection with the Wars of Scottish Independence, as did the earlier set MK083(SL) "The Duel" (Robert the Bruce & Henry de Bohun). I'm not sure if that's intentional, but I'd like to see K&C cover this conflict.

Brendan
 
I was just looking back through this month's dispatches and noticed the jousting knights. They both have a connection with the Wars of Scottish Independence, as did the earlier set MK083(SL) "The Duel" (Robert the Bruce & Henry de Bohun). I'm not sure if that's intentional, but I'd like to see K&C cover this conflict.

Brendan



So would I, Brendan...
All the best,
Andy.
 
The forum is a place to comment, suggest, recommend, debate and criticize toy soldiers. As long as it is done constructively and respectfully what's the problem? Some people are defensive and thin skinned when it comes to their favorite maker. Sometimes makers are too sensitive when someone criticizes or comments on an item, choice of range or release timing. I personally find it interesting and enjoyable to hear collectors express their feelings and suggestions about the products we all collect.
As Andy has stated many times there are many different types of collector with different tastes and interests. If you don't like something don't buy it but also make your opinions heard so the makers and collectors can have some input.
We all know that our hobby, passion or business comes with some controversy or misunderstandings. People who have viewed my collection sometimes ask if I am glorifying war or trivializing acts of violence. I think of my collecting as acknowledging historical events, appreciating the artistry of the products and sometimes a link with my childhood. I have used toy soldiers and dioramas as a teaching tool for my children and grandchildren and young students in general.
As far as the subject matter, it is a personal choice. I won't collect Nazis on parade and poses that depict decapitation, torture or gruesome wounds.
I think there is a line when it comes to showing your collections to children and some more sensitive adults (e.g. families of soldiers who suffered wounds or death).
Showing a US cavalryman being tortured turns me off and I would never show it to my grandchildren.....very hard to explain why mankind can be so cruel. Eventually they will learn about the atrocities performed throughout history. Would collectors purchase a "Joan of Arc" burning on the stake? I think there are limits to what we try to depict in a toy soldier.
My reaction is the same for all forms of art.
Now all this said, Andy and other makers feel that each collector makes his own choices.
Like I have said before K&C is a leader in our hobby and I have collected their figures from the very beginning (over 35 years I think). The vast majority of their products are appealing to me and I appreciate their diversity and creativity. Heh, there are some items I don't prefer and a few that make me question their thinking.
Andy is not shy about answering our concerns and again that is what this forum is for.

You don't need to justify your previous comments mate, by and large we're all on the same page. We all share an interest in TS because we love the hobby and enjoy military history.

I've generally found kids are far more perceptive and understanding about such things these days then you'd imagine.

I'd encourage you to engage with them and try to explain things in a language that they will appreciate when the time presents itself.

Cheers.
 
I think I've stated this before but it's worth repeating...

The brightly coloured miniatures we collect represent Armies that have committed unbelievable atrocities, whether we like to admit it or not. It goes beyond just the whole stereotypical "evil Nazi" image pushed by the media... during WWII, we committed our share of war crimes; the firebombings of civilian targets such as Dresden, the massacre of unarmed POWs, the mass rapes and murders of German civilians on the Eastern front. One thing I've learned as a student of military history and as a Soldier is that war is unspeakably brutal and brings out the absolute worst (and best) in men. I don't find anything particularly objectionable about the captured cavalryman; really brings home the old adage of "Keep the last bullet for yourself". For those hoping for a happier ending, it might make a nice vignette of a few of his "bunkies" moving in to the rescue. At the end of the day, it's all history.
 
I think I've stated this before but it's worth repeating...

The brightly coloured miniatures we collect represent Armies that have committed unbelievable atrocities, whether we like to admit it or not. It goes beyond just the whole stereotypical "evil Nazi" image pushed by the media... during WWII, we committed our share of war crimes; the firebombings of civilian targets such as Dresden, the massacre of unarmed POWs, the mass rapes and murders of German civilians on the Eastern front. One thing I've learned as a student of military history and as a Soldier is that war is unspeakably brutal and brings out the absolute worst (and best) in men. I don't find anything particularly objectionable about the captured cavalryman; really brings home the old adage of "Keep the last bullet for yourself". For those hoping for a happier ending, it might make a nice vignette of a few of his "bunkies" moving in to the rescue. At the end of the day, it's all history.


...And I have to agree my friend...It's all history and history is chock-full of 'The Good, The Bad and,all too often, The Downright Ugly'...However, most of us just like collecting toy soldiers.

If, occasionally we venture into somewhat darker or even 'whimsical' areas it's not the end of the civilised world as we know it...Just wanting to reflect a different aspect of warfare in miniature...no more no less.

And that is the beauty of collecting you select what works for your own personal collection... and reject what doesn't.

In the particular case of the Cavalryman undergoing a slow, lingering demise I personally felt it was an important part of how the Apaches conducted their guerrilla war against encroaching Anglo Americans and Mexicans...However I fully respect the views of others who feel differently.

Best wishes and happier collecting!
Andy.
 
The forum is a place to comment, suggest, recommend, debate and criticize toy soldiers. As long as it is done constructively and respectfully what's the problem? Some people are defensive and thin skinned when it comes to their favorite maker. Sometimes makers are too sensitive when someone criticizes or comments on an item, choice of range or release timing. I personally find it interesting and enjoyable to hear collectors express their feelings and suggestions about the products we all collect.
As Andy has stated many times there are many different types of collector with different tastes and interests. If you don't like something don't buy it but also make your opinions heard so the makers and collectors can have some input.
We all know that our hobby, passion or business comes with some controversy or misunderstandings. People who have viewed my collection sometimes ask if I am glorifying war or trivializing acts of violence. I think of my collecting as acknowledging historical events, appreciating the artistry of the products and sometimes a link with my childhood. I have used toy soldiers and dioramas as a teaching tool for my children and grandchildren and young students in general.
As far as the subject matter, it is a personal choice. I won't collect Nazis on parade and poses that depict decapitation, torture or gruesome wounds.
I think there is a line when it comes to showing your collections to children and some more sensitive adults (e.g. families of soldiers who suffered wounds or death).
Showing a US cavalryman being tortured turns me off and I would never show it to my grandchildren.....very hard to explain why mankind can be so cruel. Eventually they will learn about the atrocities performed throughout history. Would collectors purchase a "Joan of Arc" burning on the stake? I think there are limits to what we try to depict in a toy soldier.
My reaction is the same for all forms of art.
Now all this said, Andy and other makers feel that each collector makes his own choices.
Like I have said before K&C is a leader in our hobby and I have collected their figures from the very beginning (over 35 years I think). The vast majority of their products are appealing to me and I appreciate their diversity and creativity. Heh, there are some items I don't prefer and a few that make me question their thinking.
Andy is not shy about answering our concerns and again that is what this forum is for.
BH0519-1.jpg

I prefer a Joan of Arc on the stake than this skinny old man (Black Hawk Toy Soldiers/ The Templars)
 
Several years ago I attended a book signing event for Don Troiani. Don is undoubtedly one of the most highly acclaimed military artists in the world.
I asked him why he never shows "blood and guts" in any of his paintings. His answer was simple, "I can't believe that anyone would buy my art if it depicted soldiers blown apart in a battle scene or relieving themselves in a camp scene. I give people a sense of history with accurate uniforms, formations and scenery. Of course they can read and study about the horrors of war but putting it on your wall can not only be depressing but offensive to those who have experienced war and families whose loved ones were victims of war."

I suppose people can say I am a hypocrite or trying to sterilize warfare. I was a medic in the army during the Vietnam War stationed in Texas. I worked in the hospital and saw grievous wounds, burns and disfigurement so I am aware. I just don't want to see it in my hobby. But everyone has their own tastes and objectives. Some people love "contact" sports like boxing, UFC fighting, American Football and Rugby. Others enjoy watching track meets, gymnastics, golf and baseball.

As far as showing children, my six year old grandson is not going to understand torture and I would not expose him to that kind of figure. Let children be children.....ultimately they will learn about man's inhumanity to man!
 
Ric...

the forum is the place to air your opinions...
nothing wrong with that...
that's one of the reasons we're here...
opinions should be aired here...
and everyone is entitled to one...

I personally love a set of figures that tell a story...
when I look at a member's diorama and see the figure selection...
the placement of the figures...
I love to see the story he is telling without words...

I bought this set...
it tells a story to me...
I'm not anymore revolted by it than a set of Nazi SS marching...
or a Saracen holding a severed Crusader's head in the air...
war is brutal...
these things happened...

I understand your adverse affinity to seeing it...
you have had first hand knowledge of the cruelties of war...
something most of us have never seen...

in the end...
they are just toy soldier...
and Andy is not holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to buy them or display them...
it's just a personal choice...

again...I bought them...
but I understand your personal distaste for them...
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine is that in order to be historically accurate there is an ugly side of war to be depicted. For children, there is probably more harm in glamorizing war than depicting it as it is. Given the cost of these products, I doubt there is any kid who collects them. Kids today spend hours playing video games that are a lot more violent than anything here. They would likely fall over laughing if you asked them if these figures were objectionable. And how many of us grew up watching westerns with all the violence they contained without being traumatized? If you are concerned about kids in your household, then not buying them is a total solution to any real or imagined issue along those lines. As a result, any objection expressed on the forum appears to imply that perhaps the point being made is that others here shouldn't collect them or they shouldn't be made because they are objectionable to some. That is probably not the intent but that is the impression given since there is already an obvious solution for individual collectors who don't like them.
 
I suppose people can say I am a hypocrite or trying to sterilize warfare. I was a medic in the army during the Vietnam War stationed in Texas. I worked in the hospital and saw grievous wounds, burns and disfigurement so I am aware. I just don't want to see it in my hobby. But everyone has their own tastes and objectives. Some people love "contact" sports like boxing, UFC fighting, American Football and Rugby. Others enjoy watching track meets, gymnastics, golf and baseball.

Holy Cow, you were busy back then::confused:

https://forum.treefrogtreasures.com/showthread.php?66008-Cnn-quot-1968-quot&p=824053#post824053

-Moe
 
Ric...

the forum is the place to air your opinions...
nothing wrong with that...
that's one of the reasons we're here...
opinions should be aired here...
and everyone is entitled to one...

I personally love a set of figures that tell a story...
when I look at a member's diorama and see the figure selection...
the placement of the figures...
I love to see the story he is telling without words...

I bought this set...
it tells a story to me...
I'm not anymore revolted by it than a set of Nazi SS marching...
or a Saracen holding a severed Crusader's head in the air...
war is brutal...
these things happened...

I understand your adverse affinity to seeing it...
you have had first hand knowledge of the cruelties of war...
something most of us have never seen...

in the end...
they are just toy soldier...
and Andy is not holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to buy them or display them...
it's just a personal choice...

again...I bought them...
but I understand your personal distaste for them...

Thanks for your thought Mike....always appreciated and informative.
This was just airing my opinion and I welcome others including the makers.
Many valid points on all sides of the debate.
I dont condemn others for their individual tastes I just may not agree and feel the forum is a place for respectful debate on our hobby.
After all while we call our hobby "toy soldiers" or "military miniatures" many will just call them "war toys".
for me there is a line I do not want to cross. The same with real war where we supposedly have limits. The Geneva Convention gave rules of war. We can bomb the crap out of our enemy firebomb cities but shouldn't use chemical weapons. You get my point.
I enjoy the history behind the conflict and I use
my dioramas as teaching tools.
If you want to really depict accurate history in battles then why not produce a set of blown off limbs, disemboweled soldiers or the charred bodies of tank crews. I doubt many would go for these. So I guess illustrating torture set me off. Heh, it happened and we can teach about it and the individual collector can use it for their own purposes. Just not my taste.
 
Thanks for your thought Mike....always appreciated and informative.
This was just airing my opinion and I welcome others including the makers.
Many valid points on all sides of the debate.
I dont condemn others for their individual tastes I just may not agree and feel the forum is a place for respectful debate on our hobby.
After all while we call our hobby "toy soldiers" or "military miniatures" many will just call them "war toys".
for me there is a line I do not want to cross. The same with real war where we supposedly have limits. The Geneva Convention gave rules of war. We can bomb the crap out of our enemy firebomb cities but shouldn't use chemical weapons. You get my point.
I enjoy the history behind the conflict and I use
my dioramas as teaching tools.
If you want to really depict accurate history in battles then why not produce a set of blown off limbs, disemboweled soldiers or the charred bodies of tank crews. I doubt many would go for these. So I guess illustrating torture set me off. Heh, it happened and we can teach about it and the individual collector can use it for their own purposes. Just not my taste.


I think my opinions align with yours. I have certain lines I do not cross when it comes to what I depict. Those are lines I have chosen for myself and do not believe everyone has to agree. As others have said, and you have done, I think one of the main values of forums like these are to express opinions that force us to think.

I have no problems with manufacturers making products like these, or if they add more gore. I won’t buy them, but if others want them then that’s fine. If they claim more fanciful figures as historically accurate I and others will call BS.

When it comes to accusations of the “thought police,” “lack of open mindedness,” “taking things to seriously” or “lack of common sense” that the “you smelt it, you dealt it” rule applies. The first accuser is usually the guilty party.

Thanks fo
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine is that in order to be historically accurate there is an ugly side of war to be depicted. For children, there is probably more harm in glamorizing war than depicting it as it is. Given the cost of these products, I doubt there is any kid who collects them. Kids today spend hours playing video games that are a lot more violent than anything here. They would likely fall over laughing if you asked them if these figures were objectionable. And how many of us grew up watching westerns with all the violence they contained without being traumatized? If you are concerned about kids in your household, then not buying them is a total solution to any real or imagined issue along those lines. As a result, any objection expressed on the forum appears to imply that perhaps the point being made is that others here shouldn't collect them or they shouldn't be made because they are objectionable to some. That is probably not the intent but that is the impression given since there is already an obvious solution for individual collectors who don't like them.

Again my opinion and I welcome other perspectives. If collectors really want to be historically accurate would they buy sets of blown off limbs, disemboweled soldiers or charred bodies of a tank crew? I doubt it but maybe some would. Even in real wars lines or limits were set by treaties or protocol. The Geneva Convention for example told warring parties how to treat prisoners and what weapons (e.g. Chemical and biological) should not be used. I just think that depicting torture goes over my lines so I gave my opinion and others can disagree.
I use my soldiers to teach young people history. I teach in schools, libraries and museums. The visuals gets their attention and then we can discuss the history, culture and politics behind the battles. I don't minimize the cruelties and devastation of wars but I don't distract them with gory scenes just to be realistic. I think most parents would object to having their kids view dioramas with severed heads and limbs. I am talking about elementary and middle school kids. You are right that today's movies, video games and cable TV are more brutal then toy soldiers but I am not using violence to entertain rather to teach. I grew up with Westerns that never showed blood and guts. There was very little gratuitous violence depicted in films or TV back in the 50's and 60's. There was also very little depiction of death and maiming in toy soldiers back then. I don't remember WB even doing wounded figures.
I enjoy the hobby which I have participated in almost all my life. It has led me to study history in general and conflicts in particular. Collect what you want to, I am not the toy soldier police! I do think, however, that understanding what some people find objectionable is only broadening one's horizons and giving the makers an idea of what their customers approve of or disapprove of. After all Andy listens to the want lists of his customers so why not the other side of the issue. And ultimately you and he are right that we can reject a product by simply not buying it.
 
Again my opinion and I welcome other perspectives. If collectors really want to be historically accurate would they buy sets of blown off limbs, disemboweled soldiers or charred bodies of a tank crew? I doubt it but maybe some would. Even in real wars lines or limits were set by treaties or protocol. The Geneva Convention for example told warring parties how to treat prisoners and what weapons (e.g. Chemical and biological) should not be used. I just think that depicting torture goes over my lines so I gave my opinion and others can disagree.
I use my soldiers to teach young people history. I teach in schools, libraries and museums. The visuals gets their attention and then we can discuss the history, culture and politics behind the battles. I don't minimize the cruelties and devastation of wars but I don't distract them with gory scenes just to be realistic. I think most parents would object to having their kids view dioramas with severed heads and limbs. I am talking about elementary and middle school kids. You are right that today's movies, video games and cable TV are more brutal then toy soldiers but I am not using violence to entertain rather to teach. I grew up with Westerns that never showed blood and guts. There was very little gratuitous violence depicted in films or TV back in the 50's and 60's. There was also very little depiction of death and maiming in toy soldiers back then. I don't remember WB even doing wounded figures.
I enjoy the hobby which I have participated in almost all my life. It has led me to study history in general and conflicts in particular. Collect what you want to, I am not the toy soldier police! I do think, however, that understanding what some people find objectionable is only broadening one's horizons and giving the makers an idea of what their customers approve of or disapprove of. After all Andy listens to the want lists of his customers so why not the other side of the issue. And ultimately you and he are right that we can reject a product by simply not buying it.

Yes, I agree with this.

I remember as a kid in the 70s unpacking the old 1:72 Airfix German infantry, and being taken aback and a little uncomfortable even then about the German soldier holding his eyes in agony...
 
... during WWII, we committed our share of war crimes; the firebombings of civilian targets such as Dresden, ..... At the end of the day, it's all history.

Why is Dresden referred to this way?

What made it a war crime in 1945?

What about the bombing of London for 57 consecutive nights in 1940?

What about Coventry, in 2 nights in Nov 1940 they dropped 30,000 incendiary bombs?

Referring to Dresden as war crime appears to be more ‘revisionist history’
 
Perhaps I used the wrong term... A War Crime, by definition, is a violation of international law. The word I shold have used is "atrocity". Dresden was primarily a civilian target. The mass killing of civilians most certainly is an atrocity. So was the bombing of London, Coventry and any other attack on a target that is primarily civilian. Some atrocities can be argued as necessary; I would suggest that the atomic bombings of cities with large civilian populations (ie Hiroshima and Nagasaki) were atrocities but essential to save vast numbers of lives that would have been lost on both sides during a potential invasion of Japan. Same goes for Sherman's March to the Sea. Dresden on the other hand? Sounds more like the RAF getting payback for the Blitz as opposed to having any legitimate military purpose.

Why is Dresden referred to this way?

What made it a war crime in 1945?

What about the bombing of London for 57 consecutive nights in 1940?

What about Coventry, in 2 nights in Nov 1940 they dropped 30,000 incendiary bombs?

Referring to Dresden as war crime appears to be more ‘revisionist history’
 

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