Lions led by Donkeys? (1 Viewer)

I frankly think these kinds of discussions aren't very fruitful, hence my comment above. However, I do have to take issue with the comment that history has universally condemned Grant as a butcher. To me universally means all of one thing and, although I am not as knowledgeable as others, he has not been so universally condemned by historians. It's true he was called a butcher but that moniker was given to him by Mary Lincoln, who disliked him. Although it may not lessen what happened at Cold Harbor, Grant regretted what happened there.

I also read somewhere that Lee suffered equivalent losses to Grant's and let's not forget that he authored Pickett's charge. Let's also not throw out the baby with the bath water as Grant did win many important victories and was what was needed at the time.
 
This is a can of worms. Almost all generals, Allied or other, had damage done to their reputation in one way or another. Redemption of said reputation depended on learning, applying, and timing. A who's who in British High Command is neccesary to continue. Where do you start? What theater? How about Hamilton at Gallipoli? Murray, Smuts, Allenby, Plumer, Byng, Birdwood, Gough, Robertson, Munro, Rawlinson? Where do you end? All were bad and good at some point. Like I said earlier, casting stones is a risky business. -- lancer
 
Anyone in a position of prominence, politician, actor, sportsman, businessman,lawyer or soldier will always have their supporters and detractors. You only have to look at some of the so called "celebrities" who feature daily in the media. Many men who served under Haig, my father included, held him in high regard. He is condemned for the high casualties incurred at the Somme etc., but the DAILY rate of casualties was about 5,000 on all fronts. This was not down to Haig, it was just the norm for that war. One of the main causes for Haig's bad reputation was down to Lloyd George, who was worried not so much by the casualty rate as the effect it might have on the voting public. In consequence he did as much as he could to paint Haig as a black hearted,cold individual with no regard for the lives of his men in an attempt to shift the blame on to his shoulders alone. Typical politician.
 
For anyone who is interested in this thread(and its been great to hear all the viewpoints-there seems to be discussions on WW2 quite a lot,but few on WW1)may i recommend this book i'm reading. 'Tommy-The British soldier on the Western Front 1914-1918' by Richard Holmes.Its very interesting and sets out the life of the average soldier 'Thomas Atkins' and how he fitted into the Army and how the command structure above him worked.It has lots about the Generals and i think is a fair and balanced view of these events.Well worth reading.:)

Rob
 
Leaving aside the generals (although I will state that I am more in Louis's camp than anyone elses over this), we must place the blame for the most monumental failure on the diplomats who allowed this all to happen in August 1914 and to continue for four years. That is where the failure is as far as I am concerned. Clausewitz would have been horrified. War was supposed to be there to achieve some sort of political goal. In WWI it simply destroyed all the powers that fought it and I include the victors (USA excluded) as the collapse of colonial empires in the latter half of the 20 th century had their origins in WWI. I have read many books on the origin of WWI and still cannot quite understand why this all happened. Niall Ferguson places the blame squarely on the shoulders of Imperial Germany and there may be some thruth in this.
 
Leaving aside the generals (although I will state that I am more in Louis's camp than anyone elses over this), we must place the blame for the most monumental failure on the diplomats who allowed this all to happen in August 1914 and to continue for four years. That is where the failure is as far as I am concerned. Clausewitz would have been horrified. War was supposed to be there to achieve some sort of political goal. In WWI it simply destroyed all the powers that fought it and I include the victors (USA excluded) as the collapse of colonial empires in the latter half of the 20 th century had their origins in WWI. I have read many books on the origin of WWI and still cannot quite understand why this all happened. Niall Ferguson places the blame squarely on the shoulders of Imperial Germany and there may be some thruth in this.

Not just Germany most of Europe was playing the expansionist game on what became a deadly chess board. And Britain? she just wanted to maintain her status quo but woke up most nights from a nightmare of an ever increasing size of the Imperial German Naval Fleet.

But the tinder-box that would generate the spark had happened a few years before the outbreak of war-the Franco-Russian Alliance which placed Germany between two very unfriendly neighbours and a possible war on two fronts. The German High Command were in a state of panic that evolved into an arms race across most of Europe and the Germans adopting Count Schlieffen's plan for attacking and destroying France first before the Russian army could mobilise. And the spark was provided by a seventeen year old assassin in Sarajevo June 1914.

Reb
 
Not just Germany most of Europe was playing the expansionist game on what became a deadly chess board. And Britain? she just wanted to maintain her status quo but woke up most nights from a nightmare of an ever increasing size of the Imperial German Naval Fleet.

But the tinder-box that would generate the spark had happened a few years before the outbreak of war-the Franco-Russian Alliance which placed Germany between two very unfriendly neighbours and a possible war on two fronts. The German High Command were in a state of panic that evolved into an arms race across most of Europe and the Germans adopting Count Schlieffen's plan for attacking and destroying France first before the Russian army could mobilise. And the spark was provided by a seventeen year old assassin in Sarajevo June 1914.

Reb
Niall Ferguson points out that in traditional European interstate rivalry and politics the diplomats generally had very pragmatic approaches to war. As long as there was something to gain they would pursue military options but were quick to call a halt when it was obvious that everyone was losing. The rivalry between France and Britain which essentially continued from the 18 Century all the way to the end of Napoleon was essentilly 150 years of armed hostility punctuated by truces and peaces whenever it seemed that the opponents stood to gain more from a cessation of hostilities than by armed conflict. These diplomats were schooled by the lesson of Westphalia which restored some order after the pretty mutually destructive religious wars of the 16 th century. Compromise was important. You could always declare victory to your respective populations whilst redrawing a few lines on a map and agreeing to disagree with your opponent. WWI was different. BOth sides allowed the logic of destruction to become self sustaining. Verdun must remain one of the most tragic waste of lives and treasure ever. Would a Metternich or a Richelieau have allowed such madness? WWI remains to me a failure of politics and diplomacy.

As to the causes of all this, I have never really accepted the War by timetable thesis which AJP Taylor proposed. Once the plan was sarted it could not be stopped. Something else possessed the European powers to self destruction. I would simply say that I tend to agree with Niall Ferguson's explanation.
 
As to the causes of all this, I have never really accepted the War by timetable thesis which AJP Taylor proposed. Once the plan was sarted it could not be stopped. Something else possessed the European powers to self destruction. I would simply say that I tend to agree with Niall Ferguson's explanation.

That's assuming that the European powers all knew they were on a path of self-destruction. I don't believe they gave it a thought until late 1917 and the fall of Czarist Russia but Nicholas was such an inept leader that it is almost certain he would have been toppled with or without a war.
 
I've been reading this thread with great interest, but I haven't commented yet, because I'm not as well-versed with the history of the British Army and the home politics, in the Great War. But now we're getting to my side of the topic!

I think I'd have to disagree with Ferguson. German diplomacy bears immediate blame, for allowing the coalitions that Bismarck had so carefully maintained to fall apart and the alignment that fought the war to coalesce. The Kaiser, his prime ministers and foreign ministers were not up to the task of the kind of diplomacy that their internal and external political position demanded.

But the French pursued a policy aimed at restoring their position, so terribly upset by the loss in 1871, and they were much better tacticians than the Germans were.

Another fault may be laid at the nature of the Imperial German constitution and government, a systematic fault. It was designed as an essentially Prussian device, that is, it was designed around an autocrat-not necessarily the monarch, but his first minister, responsible to him alone and acting in his name. With Bismarck and Wilhelm I, this system worked. It worked for the Empire, because Bismarck's goal was peace, to consolidate the new state's position in Europe. And that meant it worked for Europe, because it was in Germany's interest, as Bismarck defined it, to have European peace. One strategy that he followed in pursuit of that interest was to keep France isolated, at least until any hint of revenge for Elsass-Lothringen had faded. And he was sharp enough to carry out that strategy.

But with lesser men, that system was doomed to fail, failure being an international crisis of some kind. And even Bismarck was not perfect. I think he failed to see where the forces unleashed inside the new Germany would go; at least, I don't think he expected them to be as strong as they were. Ultimately, the liberals were not satisfied with his sop to them (universal male suffrage and the Reichstag; nationalists and Pan-Germanist were not happy with his colonial policies; and Marxists couldn't be bought off with his social security plans.

An interesting take on the period from 1871 through 1945 is Goodspeed's "The German Wars", outlining the diplomacy in the 1890's and the first decade of the 20th century, how the French outmanuevered the Germans after Bismarck was dismissed; and how both World Wars can be seen as two phases of the same conflict, with an armistice in between.

Certainly without the First World War, there is no Second, not in the shape that that conflict took. And it can be argued that without the First, the millions who died in the name of Marxism in the 20th century would probably have been spared, too, for the Bolsheviks were an angry and vocal but relatively impotent offshoot of Marxism, right up to the fall of the Tsar, and without the war, who knows whether they would ever have grown beyond that status?

What a great thread!

Prost!
Brad
 
To all -- If interested in reading of the origins of WW1 go to Luigi Albertini's 3 volume study "Origins of the War of 1914". This is the most complete, multi-sided work ever done on the subject. It is available in paperback. -- lancer
 

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