Little Big Horn and Deadwood (1 Viewer)

[Combat]

I was finally able to make the trip to see the LBH battlefield and Deadwood. A bucket list trip. It was a task to get there from the East Coast with the inept airlines (one canceled flight, one missed connection, no luggage yet on the return trip, had to fly into Philadelphia in the middle of the night and rent a car to get home when they cancelled the flight to the airport where my car was parked at, no reimbursement from the airlines for the $300 spent to rent a car to get home etc.), but otherwise a great trip. I boned up a bit on the LBH battle before I left and it was a good thing as the LBH visitor's center is antiquated and there were only two park service guys who were working there. One of whom was Native American and spent most of his time with what I consider to be politically correct dialogues on the wrongs committed against the Native Americans. All the more ironic given that the battlefield is on the Crow Reservation and the Crow were actually assisting Custer against their enemies who had routinely abused them. A great bookstore there but the artifacts were typically reproductions and underwhelming. It was also boiling, soul crushing hot. Still had chills, though, to set eyes on Custer's Hill.

My impression of the place is that topography is a more complex and different than I had anticipated. It is almost impossible to see the Little Big Horn river, for example, from any place on the ridge which overlooks it. Different from the typical "high ground" of Civil War battles. The lines of sight are limited from the higher ground by long, sloping ridges (particularly when trying to look to the left or right or directly down), the distance between Custer's Hill and Reno's Hill were much longer and isolated from one another than I would have anticipated. Not walkable in the heat but you can take the short drive to Reno's Hill. The ravines heading up the hills were of obvious importance to the Indians who could use them to infiltrate the higher positions. Even with hundreds of books and maps written on the battle it is difficult to follow what exactly happened when looking at the place. It must have been a very confused melee for the participants who suddenly found themselves there in the midst of battle. The hardships that the participants must have endured in those hellish conditions in all that vast open distance just to reach that place are incredible. There was a sign that attempted to show the location of the so called "Crow's nest" in the distant mountains where Custer's scouts first spotted the Indian village. It is so far away from the battlefield as to be a speck even with binos. Amazing that Custer could began the day there and even reach the LBH battlefield that day. The distances and hardship of the conditions can't be understated. And that's even in the modern age of cars and AC. Hard to imagine what it was like on horseback in that nothingness facing death at every turn. I also visited the Fetterman battlefield in Wyoming. A lesser known but fascinating battle that mirrored Custer's battle in many respects. That place is surreal on a lonely, wind swept ridge line in the middle of absolutely nowhere. The signs warning of rattlesnakes on the trail adds to the excitement.

In terms of Deadwood, I had low expectations. Tourism has apparently benefitted from the popularity of the HBO show. It was crowded even on a weekday in 100 degree heat. It is the kind of hokey souvenir shop, Hollywood-influenced place that you might expect but still has a certain Old West charm. Worth the visit. I made the trip to the cemetery to see the graves of Wild Bill, Calamity Jane and Rev. Smith. Old Seth Bullock is buried outside the main cemetery on a very, very steep walk on some higher ground. All the middle age guys who made that trip were sucking wind while their wives stood below and shook their heads. It turned out to be fun. Not a place that you need to spend a lot of time to see everything. Also had a chance to visit Mt. Rushmore (more impressive than I anticipated) and the Crazy Horse monument (interesting). At the latter, the gift shop allows you take some of the chiseled away rocks from the memorial as souvenirs. My son and I grabbed several which delighted my wife who asked the age old question "what do you plan to do with those?" I figure they make a great backdrop for some of my western themed toy soldier figures in my collection. And they were also fun to carry in our luggage by adding to our travel burden! My son chose the biggest rock he could find which looked like it could have served as Crazy Horse's ear lobe. Fun trip even if often hot and crowded. All the sights are at vast distances by East Coast standards but you can rocket along on the empty highways at 90 MPH. Someone told me once that when you ask for directions on the East Coast they will tell you how long it takes to get there, while in Montana and Wyoming they tell you have far it is. Lastly, when in Buffalo, WY, I stumbled on the author Craig Johnson's books that are sold in every shop there (and apparently the basis of a Netflix Longmire series). Had a chance to read one on the trip back given ample opportunity provided of the airlines. And they are very good. Or at least the very first one in the series.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Sounds like a great trip.

Never knew Deadwood was a real place. Enjoyed the Longmire series as it was a different type of law and order show. Pity Longmire cant go to Yellowstone as that place needs a decent Sherriff!

If only Custer had taken some Gatling guns you probably would not have made the trip to the battlefield.

 

[Andanna]

Deadwood is a gambling town. I think it has always been popular and I am not sure the TV show added much.

My favorite part was the bison museum of Kevin Costner, but I stumbled upon it by chance. It does not seem to be very well known.

https://www.storyofthebison.com/

I was in the area for a week of backpacking. So yes, it is hot and the distances are huge. And if you run out of water, you need to turn back.

 

[Combat]

Sounds like a great trip.

Never knew Deadwood was a real place. Enjoyed the Longmire series as it was a different type of law and order show. Pity Longmire cant go to Yellowstone as that place needs a decent Sherriff!

If only Custer had taken some Gatling guns you probably would not have made the trip to the battlefield.

I think old George would still be humping those Gatling guns to the Little Big Horn over that terrain! As I recall, they even left their sabers behind because of the weight. Major Reno is buried at the LBH cemetery. He apparently died penniless back east and his body was later moved to the battlefield. Reno's reputation suffered a great deal at the battle. Claims that he was drunk and panicked. Apparently Reno and Benteen were not on good terms with Custer and didn't exactly make the effort to come to his rescue.

 

[paxtoysoldier]

I think old George would still be humping those Gatling guns to the Little Big Horn over that terrain! As I recall, they even left their sabers behind because of the weight. Major Reno is buried at the LBH cemetery. He apparently died penniless back east and his body was later moved to the battlefield. Reno's reputation suffered a great deal at the battle. Claims that he was drunk and panicked. Apparently Reno and Benteen were not on good terms with Custer and didn't exactly make the effort to come to his rescue.

The question remains: should Custer have brought the Gatlings. A simple but fun topic. I say that was the least of his mistakes, if it was even logistically possible. He could have won without them but with some sense. Fun topic. Especially for we collectors. Let's keep it up & same with other similar topics.
All The Best & Safe Wishes
Paddy

 

[Terp152]

Glad to hear you were able to make the trip from your bucket list. I visited the battle field in 2019. FOund the exhibits of Custer items in the visitor center very interesting. It was a moving experience for me to follow the progression of Custer's column marked by the steady flow of headstones of the fallen troopers. Also visited the Rosebud Battlefield in the Crow Reservation, not far from LBH. Rosebud is not nearly as developed as LBH and practically no one was there during my visit.

On my trip back home I also stopped at Ft Kearny. It was mid-October and the small visitor center was closed. I was able to see the fort and I walked the route of Fetterman's soldiers. The signs posted to be on the lookout for rattle snakes caught my eye. {sm2} Ft Kearny is in the middle of nowhere and a feeling of desolation overcame me. The troops were under constant attack as they cut timber and hay for the fort.

BTW, Reno was later court martialed for alleged lewd behavior.

Second pic is of Fetterman memorial.

 

[marco55]

Yes it does look desolate.
Mark

 

[Combat]

I picked up a book at the LBH bookstore about the archeological study done of the battlefield back in the 80s after a fire. It's not exactly easy reading but it apparently provided a lot of insight into the battle because the Indians used all manner of different guns and can be distinguished from Custer's soldiers. So the location and number of shells found at different parts of the battlefield tells a bit of the story. The big issue - that took on some more political tones - was whether Custer and his men made a coherent last stand or quickly disintegrated. In that respect, it has some overtones of the recent debates about the Alamo. I've only read a part of the book but it seems to lend itself to the latter interpretation that the gallant last stand was largely a product of myth. But, as we all know, many of these accounts are written with some bias or desired outcome.

 

[Combat]

BTW: I asked my 11-year old son what his favorite part of the trip was after visiting LBH, Deadwood, Mt. Rushmore, and Crazy Horse. He said without hesitation the 12-foot long alligator at the local reptile zoo. So much for history etc. I have to say the thing looked like Godzilla. It was monstrous and named "Maniac."

 

[Terp152]

BTW: I asked my 11-year old son what his favorite part of the trip was after visiting LBH, Deadwood, Mt. Rushmore, and Crazy Horse. He said without hesitation the 12-foot long alligator at the local reptile zoo. So much for history etc. I have to say the thing looked like Godzilla. It was monstrous and named "Maniac."

Sounds like we followed very similar paths. My son and I also visited Mt Rushmore, Crazy Horse Memorial plus Devils Tower and the Badlands. We followed the Lewis and Clark route up the Missouri to Council Bluffs and then west. There were no crowds in mid-Oct. Incredible country. Chris

 

[WeekendWarrior]

Some of the better recent scholarship on Little Big Horn is Archaelogy, History and Custer's Last Battle by Richard Fox, Strategy of Defeat by Frederic Wagner, Marcus Reno in the Valley of the Little Big Horn by Frederic Wagner and Where the Rivers Ran Red by Michael Donahue.

 

[marco55]

Sounds like we followed very similar paths. My son and I also visited Mt Rushmore, Crazy Horse Memorial plus Devils Tower and the Badlands. We followed the Lewis and Clark route up the Missouri to Council Bluffs and then west. There were no crowds in mid-Oct. Incredible country. Chris

Sounds like a great trip Chris.
Mark

 

[Johnboy]

I picked up a book at the LBH bookstore about the archeological study done of the battlefield back in the 80s after a fire. It's not exactly easy reading but it apparently provided a lot of insight into the battle because the Indians used all manner of different guns and can be distinguished from Custer's soldiers. So the location and number of shells found at different parts of the battlefield tells a bit of the story. The big issue - that took on some more political tones - was whether Custer and his men made a coherent last stand or quickly disintegrated. In that respect, it has some overtones of the recent debates about the Alamo. I've only read a part of the book but it seems to lend itself to the latter interpretation that the gallant last stand was largely a product of myth. But, as we all know, many of these accounts are written with some bias or desired outcome.

Hi,
I visited the battlefield in 2001. What impressed me was the actual size of the area that Custer's 5 troops had to eventually defend. I have read just about everything I could get my hand's on about the battle, but until I actually saw the field,I had no idea how far the Custer battalion had separated. What sprung to mind was that the distances between these troops were OK until many of the soldiers /horse holders either lost their horses or had them driven off by the Lakota/Cheyennes , basically a good cavalry battalion became a second rate infantry unit and were then unable to cover the ground between the various troops (with a few exceptions) so the battle ended up as a defeat in detail by warriors who always held local superiority. Local superiority was also a major factor at the Rosebud fight where Colonel Royall's 3rd cavalry narrowly avoided a similar fate.

 

[Terp152]

Hi,
I visited the battlefield in 2001. What impressed me was the actual size of the area that Custer's 5 troops had to eventually defend. I have read just about everything I could get my hand's on about the battle, but until I actually saw the field,I had no idea how far the Custer battalion had separated. What sprung to mind was that the distances between these troops were OK until many of the soldiers /horse holders either lost their horses or had them driven off by the Lakota/Cheyennes , basically a good cavalry battalion became a second rate infantry unit and were then unable to cover the ground between the various troops (with a few exceptions) so the battle ended up as a defeat in detail by warriors who always held local superiority. Local superiority was also a major factor at the Rosebud fight where Colonel Royall's 3rd cavalry narrowly avoided a similar fate.

Good post John. Did you also visit Rosebud Battlefield?
Chris

 

[Combat]

Hi,
I visited the battlefield in 2001. What impressed me was the actual size of the area that Custer's 5 troops had to eventually defend. I have read just about everything I could get my hand's on about the battle, but until I actually saw the field,I had no idea how far the Custer battalion had separated. What sprung to mind was that the distances between these troops were OK until many of the soldiers /horse holders either lost their horses or had them driven off by the Lakota/Cheyennes , basically a good cavalry battalion became a second rate infantry unit and were then unable to cover the ground between the various troops (with a few exceptions) so the battle ended up as a defeat in detail by warriors who always held local superiority. Local superiority was also a major factor at the Rosebud fight where Colonel Royall's 3rd cavalry narrowly avoided a similar fate.

Yes, I was surprised by the size of the area and distance of various events. Even with some foreknowledge of the battle and the Osprey book in my hand giving me a map of the battle it was difficult to get oriented. Custer was apparently more concerned that the Indians would get away from him than with performing any type of recon. He was simply trying to get at them regardless of the number of Indians. He would have had little time to access the topography. He had limited means to know what was happening with Reno and Benteen or communicating with them over those distances or they with him. No way to coordinate efforts. Weir point was the first place that you can even see the Custer field and then only with binos. Once the Indians began to use the ravines to infiltrate the hill and began to mass it was too late. Custer was effectively trapped.

 

[Johnboy]

Good post John. Did you also visit Rosebud Battlefield?
Chris

Hi,
I never made it to Rosebud but have the books by Vaughn,Mangum, and Hedren all worth a read. My visit to LBH cleared events in my mind. In that broken terrain 200 soldiers stood no chance as they had to deal with about 10 warriors each with a very limited field of fire. Only a very few of Custer's men present had combat experience against native Americans while most had never fired a shot in anger before and without fire control from officers , a disaster was inevitable. When the horses stampeded so did morale , individual soldiers did their best but as they say "the rest is history"

 

[Terp152]

Hi,
I never made it to Rosebud but have the books by Vaughn,Mangum, and Hedren all worth a read. My visit to LBH cleared events in my mind. In that broken terrain 200 soldiers stood no chance as they had to deal with about 10 warriors each with a very limited field of fire. Only a very few of Custer's men present had combat experience against native Americans while most had never fired a shot in anger before and without fire control from officers , a disaster was inevitable. When the horses stampeded so did morale , individual soldiers did their best but as they say "the rest is history"

Add to what you mention, miserable marksmanship, single shot carbines that had a tendency to jam against rapid fire bows and repeating rifles and you have a recipe for disaster. Chris

 

[Combat]

I'm finishing up the Archeological book by Richard Allan Fox. Not an easy book to read but informative. It doesn't paint a rosy picture of the fighting capabilities of the 7th. He attributes Custer's defeat to inexperienced recruits, fatigue, proximity of the fighting which lended itself to the advantage of the Indian repeating rifles and diminished the range advantage of Army carbines. Resulting in a breakdown and panic among starting on Calhoun Hill. He dismisses ammunition exhaustion and jamming of the rifles as a significant cause. He does make an interesting claim that the left wing managed to make down to the river and then came back to halt on "cemetery ridge" for 20 or minutes (so called because it is now the location of the national cemetery). He disputes the notion that Custer's men were on the defensive and forced to the hill to make an heroic stand. Rather, he believes the 7th thought themselves to on the offensive almost to the end (noting the left wings movement toward the river and pause) and that the Indians infiltrated and massed before they had any idea that they were in trouble. The final "stand" on the hill would have lasted only a few minutes with no real cohesive resistance. The final fighting taking place among survivors who attempted to flee down toward the river. Many of whom died in the Deep Ravine.

 

[Combat]

I just finished "Powder River: Disastrous Opening of the Great Sioux War" by Paul L. Hedren that I bought at the Little Big Horn Battlefield. It turns out to be an outstanding book on that battle and the aftermath involving the court martial of several officers. Hedren has written several other books on the era. I had low expectations but it is very readable with the right amount of detail.