I can understand how the "brick and motar" businesses would feel the online dealers have an advantage. Too bad I have to experience a "win/lose" solution to this problem. I love WB ACW. I will continue to collect them. I will just be more selective. As a retired professional counselor I've never been a fan of compromise. I'm a 3rd alternative solution fan. "I win/you win". It just takes creative problem solving.
Lost my 3rd favorite online dealer..... (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter rharry
- Start date
Simpson & his donkey.
Sergeant Major
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UM OK. Simmo.^&confuse
Sorry for not explaining this better. I been dealing with 3 online dealers. They were selling at discounts. Now the new policy from WB is that no dealer can sell for less then 10% as a discount. This is to artifically equal the brick and motar dealers who because of overhead can't discount as well as an online dealer.....So, three of my past dealers on line are dropping their relationship with WB. (so they say) They believe they have lost any advantage to gather a base of customers. I believe it is a "us vs them" solution. Basically restricting the pricing with one group to enhance the selling of the other group.
It's an honest problem. Both groups have an honest concern. All involved will lose because as others have said it means they will become selective and buy less. Win/lose is a lousy compromise.
If I was involved in the issue I would try these steps. First, we need a win/win solution. It would take creative brain storming. "My problem", and "your problem" needs to become "our" problem. WB has the flexablity to do this with these groups. For example I may suggest that WB create a special figure that will be released only to the Brick and Motar dealers for 3 years. Only walk in customers can buy them. After 3 years these figures will be released to all dealers. I would also suggest all Brick and Motar dealers will be given WB older issues of the standard and catalogs to hand out to their walk in customers. There are other special concepts WB can create to help equal out the balance between the two dealers.
In the short term it may cost WB a bit more to find a win/win solution but in the long term the volumn of selling will continue to grow. Stephen Covey covers this concept in his book titled "The 3rd Alternative.
I spent $3000.00 last year on WB. I am a loyal customer. I will continue to buy WB. It will be less volumn.
It's an honest problem. Both groups have an honest concern. All involved will lose because as others have said it means they will become selective and buy less. Win/lose is a lousy compromise.
If I was involved in the issue I would try these steps. First, we need a win/win solution. It would take creative brain storming. "My problem", and "your problem" needs to become "our" problem. WB has the flexablity to do this with these groups. For example I may suggest that WB create a special figure that will be released only to the Brick and Motar dealers for 3 years. Only walk in customers can buy them. After 3 years these figures will be released to all dealers. I would also suggest all Brick and Motar dealers will be given WB older issues of the standard and catalogs to hand out to their walk in customers. There are other special concepts WB can create to help equal out the balance between the two dealers.
In the short term it may cost WB a bit more to find a win/win solution but in the long term the volumn of selling will continue to grow. Stephen Covey covers this concept in his book titled "The 3rd Alternative.
I spent $3000.00 last year on WB. I am a loyal customer. I will continue to buy WB. It will be less volumn.
Jack
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I suppose it is much like the situation facing book shops as they compete with (although against is perhaps the more informative word) online sellers. We probably all know people who browse for books at the brick and mortar stores, find what they like, then go home and order online.
I am impressed, though, with people who sustain an interest in the hobby if they do not have a store nearby. Part of the fun of the hobby for me is the Thursday night ritual of a visit to the store, talk some toy soldiers, some politics, some treefrog, make a purchase, go home, add to the collection, make insincere comment about my concerns about the amount I am spending, then my wife reassures me by saying 'You don't smoke, you don't drink...' and then I do it all again next week. One of the few free things (apart from the forum!) in the hobby is the fun of buying at the same time as friends who are after different ranges.
I am impressed, though, with people who sustain an interest in the hobby if they do not have a store nearby. Part of the fun of the hobby for me is the Thursday night ritual of a visit to the store, talk some toy soldiers, some politics, some treefrog, make a purchase, go home, add to the collection, make insincere comment about my concerns about the amount I am spending, then my wife reassures me by saying 'You don't smoke, you don't drink...' and then I do it all again next week. One of the few free things (apart from the forum!) in the hobby is the fun of buying at the same time as friends who are after different ranges.
waynepoo
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It is also the only chance Jack has to ware his Elvis Hawaiian shirts in public. {eek3}:rolleyes2:
Wayne.
Jack
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Generally speaking, strictly bedroom wear!
The internet has destroyed the brick and mortar bookstore business. There is no way a bookshop can compete with the lower, no overhead, prices that an internet dealer can charge. The TS companies, with their strict 'no discount' pricing structure, are trying to prevent the brick and mortar stores from going down the tubes, as happened with the bookstores. I'm for it. -- Al
BLReed
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The customer adapts as well to imposed restrictions. For starters
no sales tax. Free shipping and in some cases "reward" points.
My favorite is eBay listings where the Seller bought into the
limited production and bought several. Then finds themself
short of funds. It takes a while but watch eBay. Then after
watching for a while you find you really didn't want it anyway
after all the hype on forums subsides.
Another favorite is a certain manufacturer that says "all sold out."
Maybe at the wholesale level, but not at the retail level. They
can't get rid of them, and have no other option, but to make
a "deal" under the table.
If you have spent $3000 a year with one Retailer, you have
an edge. Just keep your mouth shut.
no sales tax. Free shipping and in some cases "reward" points.
My favorite is eBay listings where the Seller bought into the
limited production and bought several. Then finds themself
short of funds. It takes a while but watch eBay. Then after
watching for a while you find you really didn't want it anyway
after all the hype on forums subsides.
Another favorite is a certain manufacturer that says "all sold out."
Maybe at the wholesale level, but not at the retail level. They
can't get rid of them, and have no other option, but to make
a "deal" under the table.
If you have spent $3000 a year with one Retailer, you have
an edge. Just keep your mouth shut.
lenswerks
First Sergeant
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- 1,399
I don't want to see anyone fold their tent, but I am buying at the best price I can find and I am not paying sales tax so buy on-line.
rharry that is the policy but it's not new. It went in place early last year as I recall. One solution is giving back a reward each month based on your purchase which a couple do. Which is better than a poke in the eye with a stick.
The other option that WB allows is when the seller, in addition to the 10% discount at time of purchase, allows an additional discount IF it applies to everything in the store. It is based on the amount you buy and discounts applied at check-out.
rharry that is the policy but it's not new. It went in place early last year as I recall. One solution is giving back a reward each month based on your purchase which a couple do. Which is better than a poke in the eye with a stick.
The other option that WB allows is when the seller, in addition to the 10% discount at time of purchase, allows an additional discount IF it applies to everything in the store. It is based on the amount you buy and discounts applied at check-out.
The Military Workshop
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- 4,778
As a dealer who sells Britains figures at the RRP you will not be surprised if I say this is good news and I would expect other bricks and mortar shops, particularly in the USA, will feel the same.
I had noted a few US Ebay sellers, who did not appear to be a shop, selling Britains at very low prices. Assuming they were paying the same as myself and other shop dealers, and after Ebay fees, some were going on incredibly low margins which did not make commercial sense. Some were doing high volume and would obviously be taking away sales from the physical shops who are the places that create the new collectors.
Thomas Gunn only a few days ago announced that he had cut off an USA Ebay dealer who was also discounting and K&C has done so in the past.
This has been an ongoing problem for years. Whilst many collectors obviously approve of discounting it is actually bad for the industry as collectors gravitate towards those who discount the most and those who do not discount lose their customer base. I recall in another thread Gideon mentioned he stopped dealing in Britains due to discounting although in that case it was a neighbouring comic shop. One of the problems as I see it is "dealers" who work from home (and in some cases may have a day job) who have a major advantage over a physical shop in terms of overheads. Some of the Ebay sellers I have seen appeared to have not even bothered to create their own web page which costs money and effort to maintain.
Anyway just the very biased thoughts of a dealer who makes his living selling TS's. As I said I appreciate many collectors always want a discount but perhaps when they get their next pay day they might offer their employer the same discount {sm4}.
Regards
Brett
I had noted a few US Ebay sellers, who did not appear to be a shop, selling Britains at very low prices. Assuming they were paying the same as myself and other shop dealers, and after Ebay fees, some were going on incredibly low margins which did not make commercial sense. Some were doing high volume and would obviously be taking away sales from the physical shops who are the places that create the new collectors.
Thomas Gunn only a few days ago announced that he had cut off an USA Ebay dealer who was also discounting and K&C has done so in the past.
This has been an ongoing problem for years. Whilst many collectors obviously approve of discounting it is actually bad for the industry as collectors gravitate towards those who discount the most and those who do not discount lose their customer base. I recall in another thread Gideon mentioned he stopped dealing in Britains due to discounting although in that case it was a neighbouring comic shop. One of the problems as I see it is "dealers" who work from home (and in some cases may have a day job) who have a major advantage over a physical shop in terms of overheads. Some of the Ebay sellers I have seen appeared to have not even bothered to create their own web page which costs money and effort to maintain.
Anyway just the very biased thoughts of a dealer who makes his living selling TS's. As I said I appreciate many collectors always want a discount but perhaps when they get their next pay day they might offer their employer the same discount {sm4}.
Regards
Brett
Toy Soldier Brigade
Sergeant Major
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- 1,662
If the Feds get their way you will be paying the sales tax rate of the state your online seller is located in.
The Military Workshop
1st Lieutenant
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TSB,
See my new thread about Amazon and UK and USA state taxes in General Discussion area. Amazon currently only pays state taxes in 5 states but apparently this is being looked at.
In Australia there is a nationwide sales tax of 10%.
Regards
Brett
See my new thread about Amazon and UK and USA state taxes in General Discussion area. Amazon currently only pays state taxes in 5 states but apparently this is being looked at.
In Australia there is a nationwide sales tax of 10%.
Regards
Brett
ucla1967
Major
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- Jan 28, 2006
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- 6,752
The effect of the internet on brick and mortar shops is something I have been concerned about for several years. It just isn't possible for them to compete, given their overhead and fixed costs, with internet sellers. In Southern California, we have lost three of the five brick and mortar toy soldier shops we had here over the past ten years.
I understand Richard Walker's policy of limiting discounts to 10%. I would like to reminder you that King & Country doesn't permit its dealers to discount at all, although some of them do offer free shipping, which is, in fact, a form of discount. They have even dropped dealers who didn't comply. When Andy bought a set of Hiriart toy soldiers from me at last month's West Coaster Show, he asked me about a discount. I smiled and replied that I would give him the same discount that King & Country offers---none. He smiled and bought the set anyway. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
I understand Richard Walker's policy of limiting discounts to 10%. I would like to reminder you that King & Country doesn't permit its dealers to discount at all, although some of them do offer free shipping, which is, in fact, a form of discount. They have even dropped dealers who didn't comply. When Andy bought a set of Hiriart toy soldiers from me at last month's West Coaster Show, he asked me about a discount. I smiled and replied that I would give him the same discount that King & Country offers---none. He smiled and bought the set anyway. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
tdubel
Major
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- Jan 18, 2007
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- 6,740
I am going to offer my opinion here and probably will not be welcome, but in my opinion it is a hard truth on all sides.
1. The Economy sucks, no ifs ands or buts and discretionary income has shrunk.
2. Pricing has gone through the roof on all manufacturers. Formerly $15-$19 figures are now $35 to $50.
A product is worth what its perceived value, no more no less at date of issue. Some products will always be "home runs" and will sell out at the perceived retail price. However, most items will not, they will linger. In most retail situations, this is taken care of with "closeout" pricing. In this industry, the manufacturers put strains on the normal process by minimum pricing standards. I don't and never will agree with this, if your product is strong and in demand it will sell, if not, it will NOT sell out.
I think that the stated retail value in many cases across manufacturers is not the perceived or market value. It is just the way it is, this is not a slam to any quality of one product or another, in my opinion, it is just the truth.
Now, as to what is happening currently. Dealers know how much they can sell and at what price point, if they don't then they should not be in business.
I believe these referenced online dealers knew how much volume they could sell and at what price point they could do it. And unfortunately, it appears that the numbers do not work with the manufacturer policy. If I am a dealer, I would cut off the relationship if it would not allow me to make money or acheive the goals.
SO, couple of points that could be taken from this turn of events:
1. Toy Soldier retail is over priced versus percieved market value
2. At full retail, volume sales are decreasing.
I don't agree with strict pricing standards, I like the market to go where it will, so to me, after I pay the manufacturer, I would want the opportunity to employ my own sales tactics. Also, I know how much I can sell and how much the market will take (If I was a dealer).
Unfortunately, I think it is just a sign of the current state of the industry.
Brett, I am sorry to disagree with your statement, but in almost every retail industry, there is discounting that is done at the point of sale level, it is free market. Your comment comes off as a grumpy dealer who was undercut by another. Again, that happens! It is not personal, you have to run your business in the manner that suits you.
Maybe the solution is that all the manufacturers need to look at their suggested retail pricing and make sure it is in-line. As a CPA solely (trying) to look at this objectively, if I see rising inventories and product hanging around on all types of shelves for longer than normal (Inventory Turnover), it tells me a few things -
1. Pricing is out of touch with perceived market pricing.
2. Economy is not doing well as disposable income is shrinking.
3. The Industry is not growing the same leaps and bounds it has in the past.
Anyhow, a few cents,
Tom
1. The Economy sucks, no ifs ands or buts and discretionary income has shrunk.
2. Pricing has gone through the roof on all manufacturers. Formerly $15-$19 figures are now $35 to $50.
A product is worth what its perceived value, no more no less at date of issue. Some products will always be "home runs" and will sell out at the perceived retail price. However, most items will not, they will linger. In most retail situations, this is taken care of with "closeout" pricing. In this industry, the manufacturers put strains on the normal process by minimum pricing standards. I don't and never will agree with this, if your product is strong and in demand it will sell, if not, it will NOT sell out.
I think that the stated retail value in many cases across manufacturers is not the perceived or market value. It is just the way it is, this is not a slam to any quality of one product or another, in my opinion, it is just the truth.
Now, as to what is happening currently. Dealers know how much they can sell and at what price point, if they don't then they should not be in business.
I believe these referenced online dealers knew how much volume they could sell and at what price point they could do it. And unfortunately, it appears that the numbers do not work with the manufacturer policy. If I am a dealer, I would cut off the relationship if it would not allow me to make money or acheive the goals.
SO, couple of points that could be taken from this turn of events:
1. Toy Soldier retail is over priced versus percieved market value
2. At full retail, volume sales are decreasing.
I don't agree with strict pricing standards, I like the market to go where it will, so to me, after I pay the manufacturer, I would want the opportunity to employ my own sales tactics. Also, I know how much I can sell and how much the market will take (If I was a dealer).
Unfortunately, I think it is just a sign of the current state of the industry.
Brett, I am sorry to disagree with your statement, but in almost every retail industry, there is discounting that is done at the point of sale level, it is free market. Your comment comes off as a grumpy dealer who was undercut by another. Again, that happens! It is not personal, you have to run your business in the manner that suits you.
Maybe the solution is that all the manufacturers need to look at their suggested retail pricing and make sure it is in-line. As a CPA solely (trying) to look at this objectively, if I see rising inventories and product hanging around on all types of shelves for longer than normal (Inventory Turnover), it tells me a few things -
1. Pricing is out of touch with perceived market pricing.
2. Economy is not doing well as disposable income is shrinking.
3. The Industry is not growing the same leaps and bounds it has in the past.
Anyhow, a few cents,
Tom
Toy Soldier Brigade
Sergeant Major
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2005
- Messages
- 1,662
My two cents. It is a fact of life that the Internet has completely changed retail as we know it. If you are a brick and mortar store, and do not have a strong online presence you will probably cease to operate in today's global economy. There are many people making very good livings with internet only businesses. I have operated mine for almost fourteen years. Every year my business has grown. Now if I was trying to run a store front with my product line I wouldn't have lasted six months. With an online store you are open 24/7 globally. No way brick and mortar stores can compete with that kind of exposure. I have watched the largest hobby store in NJ steadily go down hill because they simply do not understand this concept. I am not even allowed in the store because they now consider me the enemy.
Several years ago I contacted Britain's about becoming a dealer. I was told that they were no longer offering dealerships to "Online Only Businesses", even after I told them what kind of sales volume I was doing at the time. Not sure how any manufacturer can turn away business like that. But after thinking about I was kinda glad that was there response. With the steady decline of the physical store front I'm sure that policy will change in the future.
I would also like to know how there are so many eBay dealers selling all of the major toy soldier manufactures that have no store or their own web site. Someone has to be selling to them. Are they businesses that we all know selling under a different name ? Are they manufacturers dumping their old inventory. I think its a big conspiracy
I was not allowed a dealership, but these fly by nights have goods to sell. Very strange.As far as manufacturer suggested retail pricing I am a big fan. Why - because I have watched numerous retailers selling product like mine at or below cost because they need funds to buy new inventory. This hurts all dealers. Rule number one when starting a business is to have enough cash on hand to run your daily business operations.
johnnybach
Major General
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I have just one question.
What's a Toy Soldier Shop?
Without the Internet - I simply wouldn't have a hobby. jb
What's a Toy Soldier Shop?
Without the Internet - I simply wouldn't have a hobby. jb
Warrior
Lieutenant General
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- May 12, 2005
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- 15,358
Ok, as a dealer I've tried to stay clear of this thread, I really have, but I guess I can't help myself, time to enter the discussion.
I'm somewhat confused with where the original poster was going on this one; so you deal with three online only retailers who've been offering discounts below 10% and now that Britains has cracked down on that, they are dropping the line, or so they say? As another poster pointed out, they cracked down a long time ago on deep discounting, so not sure why it's an issue now for them.
Also, as an online/toy soldier/wargaming/militaria show dealer, offering storefronts a special figure and allowing them to sell it for three years; not sure about that idea, can just see the conversation now; "So George, I want this figure, here is my credit card number"......."I won't have that figure for three years because I don't have a storefront".............."Click"............."Hello, are you still there Mr customer?"....... :rolleyes2:
Lastly, this really speaks to me..................
So where are the fly by nighters getting their product? Good question, as I see plenty of fly by nighters, or ham and eggers, at the shows who have K & C, JJD, Britains, Collectors Showcase, etc, etc and are not authorized dealers for any of those companies, I'm seeing it more and more at the shows to be honest.
Not only are they not authorized dealers, they are blowing out the merchandise for 20% to 30% off on top of it all. At the Annandale Show this past February, a fly by nighter who used to clean out Walmarts, Targets, TRU's, etc, etc of their FOV and 21st Century vehicles and peddle them at the shows shows up with quite a bit of a prominent manufacturers stock and was selling it at a deep discount; when I asked him where he got it, he told me "Oh, a guy near me sold the collection to me and he is no longer collecting brand XYZ"..........................to which I said "Gee, that's pretty funny because 95% of the "collection" he had was codes that were less than 4 to 6 months old and he had multiples of all of them; so let me see if I get this strait; a collector dives in and buys a boatload of multiples of nearly new codes, then decides to bail on brand XYZ and sell it to you at a 40% loss so you can sell it at 20% to 30% off of retail"................ok, sure, pull this leg it plays jiggle bells.
He got that "collection" from a dealer who was sitting on excess inventory, plain and simple.
There is another guy who comes to a lot of the East Coast shows who always has newer stock from some of the major companies and his standard line is "I bought a collection"............yeah, sure you did.
So to answer your question Paul, the fly by nighters on Ebay and the ham and eggers at the shows are getting their stock IMO from dealers who are sitting on it, I guess to them it's better to sell it at 40% off to someone who will blow it out at 20% to 30% than to sit on it.
I'm somewhat confused with where the original poster was going on this one; so you deal with three online only retailers who've been offering discounts below 10% and now that Britains has cracked down on that, they are dropping the line, or so they say? As another poster pointed out, they cracked down a long time ago on deep discounting, so not sure why it's an issue now for them.
Also, as an online/toy soldier/wargaming/militaria show dealer, offering storefronts a special figure and allowing them to sell it for three years; not sure about that idea, can just see the conversation now; "So George, I want this figure, here is my credit card number"......."I won't have that figure for three years because I don't have a storefront".............."Click"............."Hello, are you still there Mr customer?"....... :rolleyes2:
Lastly, this really speaks to me..................
I would also like to know how there are so many eBay dealers selling all of the major toy soldier manufactures that have no store or their own web site. Someone has to be selling to them. Are they businesses that we all know selling under a different name ? Are they manufacturers dumping their old inventory. I think its a big conspiracy
So where are the fly by nighters getting their product? Good question, as I see plenty of fly by nighters, or ham and eggers, at the shows who have K & C, JJD, Britains, Collectors Showcase, etc, etc and are not authorized dealers for any of those companies, I'm seeing it more and more at the shows to be honest.
Not only are they not authorized dealers, they are blowing out the merchandise for 20% to 30% off on top of it all. At the Annandale Show this past February, a fly by nighter who used to clean out Walmarts, Targets, TRU's, etc, etc of their FOV and 21st Century vehicles and peddle them at the shows shows up with quite a bit of a prominent manufacturers stock and was selling it at a deep discount; when I asked him where he got it, he told me "Oh, a guy near me sold the collection to me and he is no longer collecting brand XYZ"..........................to which I said "Gee, that's pretty funny because 95% of the "collection" he had was codes that were less than 4 to 6 months old and he had multiples of all of them; so let me see if I get this strait; a collector dives in and buys a boatload of multiples of nearly new codes, then decides to bail on brand XYZ and sell it to you at a 40% loss so you can sell it at 20% to 30% off of retail"................ok, sure, pull this leg it plays jiggle bells.
He got that "collection" from a dealer who was sitting on excess inventory, plain and simple.
There is another guy who comes to a lot of the East Coast shows who always has newer stock from some of the major companies and his standard line is "I bought a collection"............yeah, sure you did.
So to answer your question Paul, the fly by nighters on Ebay and the ham and eggers at the shows are getting their stock IMO from dealers who are sitting on it, I guess to them it's better to sell it at 40% off to someone who will blow it out at 20% to 30% than to sit on it.
Toy Soldier Brigade
Sergeant Major
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- Aug 5, 2005
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- 1,662
Funny I was thinking the same thing. Without the internet or shows I wouldn't have a collection either. The closest Toy Soldier shop to me in New Jersey is over an hour away, and he only opens when he feels like it. I think there may also be one or two other stores in NJ, but again very far away from me. If any one knows of store in southern NJ please let be know. Except for the guy on Rt 70 in Cherry Hill. Even though I haven't bought a new figure in months.
marco55
Brigadier General
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,457
I live in south jersey and I know of no shop.Like Johnnybach I would not be in the hobby.(But have more money^&grin)I don't understand why once a dealer has bought his merchandise from a manufacturer he can't sell it for what he wants.He is the one who has to accept lower profits and as far as the real stores not being allowed it's not like there's one on every corner so you wouldn't have a repeat of the old gas wars with gas stations on every corner.
Mark
Mark