Lost my 3rd favorite online dealer..... (1 Viewer)

[tdubel]

To my dealer friends, I understand your feelings on this and if I was sitting where you are, I may have similar views.

BUT as a simple business 101 guy, I still think that there has to be some sort of flexibility built in for those dud products that don't sell. There has to be a closeout option.

Again, I only look at this very black and white accounting with inventory turnover and sales volume.

I also am a pure capitalist and it is dog eat dog for me, ala all is fair and so on. I still don't like pricing standards. A product either sells at its worth or it doesnt. If you have a good product, it sells.

TD

 

[rharry]

Ok, as a dealer I've tried to stay clear of this thread, I really have, but I guess I can't help myself, time to enter the discussion.

I'm somewhat confused with where the original poster was going on this one; so you deal with three online only retailers who've been offering discounts below 10% and now that Britains has cracked down on that, they are dropping the line, or so they say? As another poster pointed out, they cracked down a long time ago on deep discounting, so not sure why it's an issue now for them.

Also, as an online/toy soldier/wargaming/militaria show dealer, offering storefronts a special figure and allowing them to sell it for three years; not sure about that idea, can just see the conversation now; "So George, I want this figure, here is my credit card number"......."I won't have that figure for three years because I don't have a storefront".............."Click"............."Hello, are you still there Mr customer?"....... :rolleyes2:

Lastly, this really speaks to me..................



So where are the fly by nighters getting their product? Good question, as I see plenty of fly by nighters, or ham and eggers, at the shows who have K & C, JJD, Britains, Collectors Showcase, etc, etc and are not authorized dealers for any of those companies, I'm seeing it more and more at the shows to be honest.

Not only are they not authorized dealers, they are blowing out the merchandise for 20% to 30% off on top of it all. At the Annandale Show this past February, a fly by nighter who used to clean out Walmarts, Targets, TRU's, etc, etc of their FOV and 21st Century vehicles and peddle them at the shows shows up with quite a bit of a prominent manufacturers stock and was selling it at a deep discount; when I asked him where he got it, he told me "Oh, a guy near me sold the collection to me and he is no longer collecting brand XYZ"..........................to which I said "Gee, that's pretty funny because 95% of the "collection" he had was codes that were less than 4 to 6 months old and he had multiples of all of them; so let me see if I get this strait; a collector dives in and buys a boatload of multiples of nearly new codes, then decides to bail on brand XYZ and sell it to you at a 40% loss so you can sell it at 20% to 30% off of retail"................ok, sure, pull this leg it plays jiggle bells.

He got that "collection" from a dealer who was sitting on excess inventory, plain and simple.

There is another guy who comes to a lot of the East Coast shows who always has newer stock from some of the major companies and his standard line is "I bought a collection"............yeah, sure you did.

So to answer your question Paul, the fly by nighters on Ebay and the ham and eggers at the shows are getting their stock IMO from dealers who are sitting on it, I guess to them it's better to sell it at 40% off to someone who will blow it out at 20% to 30% than to sit on it.

Sorry for not doing well explaining this. One of my dealers and I just spoke about when he would have future items. At that time he said WB just recently informed them to stop selling at a discount. Thats why I just brought it up...I know the rule went in last year but some dealers have sold for discounts and still do but I guess not for long....... I too have not toy shop the closes one is 8 hours west of me....anyway we will all get through it and glad to see mature responding and not over reacting on this issue. We will sort it out in time...we all love WB

 

[thebritfarmer]

I have just one question.

What's a Toy Soldier Shop?

Without the Internet - I simply wouldn't have a hobby. jb

Me either, the nearest one to me is a 3 hour car drive each way. I wouldn't have my model railway either.

Before the internet it wouldn't have made any difference though as there still wasn't anything available to me. I probably would still just have what I had when I left the UK.

 

[lcdr1635]

I'm also one of those who has no convenient physical dealers, unless I want to drive the 4 hour round trip to Gettysburg. It was the internet that got me back into this hobby and I only buy through the internet. Of the several hundred figures in my collection, I can think of two that I bought in a physical store, and both of those were overseas (one in London, one ion Moscow). I don't miss the Toy Soldier store because I have never been in one (in this country). I DO miss old fashion hobby shops that sell plastic models, which I now buy almost entirely on the internet as well. But that is another story.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Tom,
You are right. If I am in Australia and can get "grumpy" over Ebay sellers in the USA imagine how it must be to be a shop dealer in the USA competing with guys with no overheads.

I first came across this 10 years ago when an IT guy set up a web page in Australia with 12" action figures listed $20 cheaper than RRP. The supplier did not bother to check him out. Even though he never really got going I had people quoting his prices to me. A few years later my main action figure supplier started supplying to one of my customers without checking his background (ie not a shop) who then onsold at cost plus $5 to several of my hard core customers (ie. guys who bought every WWII figure). He did not sell any of the suppliers many other lines. To him it was a hobby and about being popular with the other collectors. Within about a year I went from being the biggest action figure seller in Australia to not selling them at all as was no longer interested.

Those selling on Ebay have very low overheads and in some cases it may not be their main form of income but just extra income. By selling so low they attract many buyers who would otherwise buy from bricks and mortar shops (BMS). The BMS as a result have inventory that sells slower and they in turn have to discount it to pay for further new releases. Another result is that the shop dealer may reduce the quantities and variety they order. Over time they may give up.

As I said some of the prices of brand new Britains releases on Ebay were ridiculously low and I could see some Ebay sellers selling multiples of higher value new Ltd Ed items at attractive discounts. If it is a popular limited item this may mean the BMS having to wait until the discounters have sold out their inventory first to get RRP for the same items.

George also raises the issue of dealers onselling cheap to others who get enough that it appears they are a dealer. Even from Australia it is obvious. One of my customers recently pointed out to me a Ebay seller selling a new item from a brand and he was not on the list of dealers but was the first to have them on Ebay. However he was starting the bidding at RRP.

It is a difficult subject because the suppliers obviously benefit by having more outlets ordering. However the work from home Ebayer in my mind does not do anything to actually promote the hobby or industry. Those that buy from them will probably disagree.

However it is an interesting subject for discussion.

Regards
Brett

 

[jomartvr]

Hello,
As a toy soldier collector living in eastern North Carolina all of my purchases are made through online vendors in the USA, UK and France. I have emailed Richard and expressed my displeasure that they have dropped a number of online vendors. Let me qualify my following statement by noting that I am a tenured professor at E.C.U. in Greenville, N.C. I have not had a raise in salary for three years and doubt that one will be forthcoming in the for foreseeable future, given the economy. That said altruism is not a consideration when I make my toy soldier purchases. In other words I do not purchase Britain's products from brick and mortar stores in order to support them. I purchase where I can find the best price, period. Furthermore prices offered by online vendors reflect what I believe is the street value of Britains products. I realize that brick and mortar stores have higher overheads, but as a customer that is not my problem.

I am sorry for the brick and mortar dealers however, the market place has changed for good and many of them will go out of business. In particular, the number of people who can afford this hobby are declining. Furthermore, collectors are not locked into purchasing through brick and mortar stores and there are a lot of products to chose from. For example, I am now shopping on EBAY.fr for Hachette/King and Country French Foreign Legion figures. Good pricing and good value even with shipping costs. The same is true for the Guards Centre, EBAY.co.uk, which offers great prices on older Britains’ merchandise. EBAY, the internet, provides a global platform for toy soldier shopping.

The internet has even lead to the demise of hard copy academic journals. I am on the editorial board of the Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research. Due to market forces, subscriptions from university libraries and jstor, in two years we will only publish soft copies of the journal. On demand printing will be available but for a higher price.

Just my 2 cents albeit with an edge
Benjamin

 

[tdubel]

Hello,
As a toy soldier collector living in eastern North Carolina all of my purchases are made through online vendors in the USA, UK and France. I have emailed Richard and expressed my displeasure that they have dropped a number of online vendors. Let me qualify my following statement by noting that I am a tenured professor at E.C.U. in Greenville, N.C. I have not had a raise in salary for three years and doubt that one will be forthcoming in the for foreseeable future, given the economy. That said altruism is not a consideration when I make my toy soldier purchases. In other words I do not purchase Britain's products from brick and mortar stores in order to support them. I purchase where I can find the best price, period. Furthermore prices offered by online vendors reflect what I believe is the street value of Britains products. I realize that brick and mortar stores have higher overheads, but as a customer that is not my problem.

I am sorry for the brick and mortar dealers however, the market place has changed for good and many of them will go out of business. In particular, the number of people who can afford this hobby are declining. Furthermore, collectors are not locked into purchasing through brick and mortar stores and there are a lot of products to chose from. For example, I am now shopping on EBAY.fr for Hachette/King and Country French Foreign Legion figures. Good pricing and good value even with shipping costs. The same is true for the Guards Centre, EBAY.co.uk, which offers great prices on older Britains’ merchandise. EBAY, the internet, provides a global platform for toy soldier shopping.

The internet has even lead to the demise of hard copy academic journals. I am on the editorial board of the Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research. Due to market forces, subscriptions from university libraries and jstor, in two years we will only publish soft copies of the journal. On demand printing will be available but for a higher price.

Just my 2 cents albeit with an edge
Benjamin

Benjamin,
Great post, a lot of what I was trying to say!

Tom

 

[tdubel]

Tom,
You are right. If I am in Australia and can get "grumpy" over Ebay sellers in the USA imagine how it must be to be a shop dealer in the USA competing with guys with no overheads.

I first came across this 10 years ago when an IT guy set up a web page in Australia with 12" action figures listed $20 cheaper than RRP. The supplier did not bother to check him out. Even though he never really got going I had people quoting his prices to me. A few years later my main action figure supplier started supplying to one of my customers without checking his background (ie not a shop) who then onsold at cost plus $5 to several of my hard core customers (ie. guys who bought every WWII figure). He did not sell any of the suppliers many other lines. To him it was a hobby and about being popular with the other collectors. Within about a year I went from being the biggest action figure seller in Australia to not selling them at all as was no longer interested.

Those selling on Ebay have very low overheads and in some cases it may not be their main form of income but just extra income. By selling so low they attract many buyers who would otherwise buy from bricks and mortar shops (BMS). The BMS as a result have inventory that sells slower and they in turn have to discount it to pay for further new releases. Another result is that the shop dealer may reduce the quantities and variety they order. Over time they may give up.

As I said some of the prices of brand new Britains releases on Ebay were ridiculously low and I could see some Ebay sellers selling multiples of higher value new Ltd Ed items at attractive discounts. If it is a popular limited item this may mean the BMS having to wait until the discounters have sold out their inventory first to get RRP for the same items.

George also raises the issue of dealers onselling cheap to others who get enough that it appears they are a dealer. Even from Australia it is obvious. One of my customers recently pointed out to me a Ebay seller selling a new item from a brand and he was not on the list of dealers but was the first to have them on Ebay. However he was starting the bidding at RRP.

It is a difficult subject because the suppliers obviously benefit by having more outlets ordering. However the work from home Ebayer in my mind does not do anything to actually promote the hobby or industry. Those that buy from them will probably disagree.

However it is an interesting subject for discussion.

Regards
Brett

Hi Brett,
It is a tough sign of the times, the online guys will always have lower overhead, it is a difference that I do not dispute.

More of what I wanted to point out in my post is the difference (In my opinion) of retail price of toy soldiers versus the "street price" or perceived value.

Again, just my opinion,
Tom

 

[waynepoo]

Living in Brisbane Australia I am very lucky to have Bretts 'Bricks and Mortar store' here. I work on the simple plan - I ask Brett first if it's in stock if not I go E-Bay. I say I am lucky that there is a bricks and mortar store near by because 1. you can see in the flesh first always better than going on pics. 2. it is a social thing as well, I would not have come to know some of the madmen who all so visit his store. His prices are still better than any thing on Ebay as shipping to Oz is very costly, Just MHO.
Wayne.

 

[The Military Workshop]

In my view the street value or price on certain brands is lower becuase of the fact the price has been driven down by the sellers discounting and this is because of dealers with no overheads (and as I mentioned perhaps also a day job). The collector then comes to expect that kind of pricing.

Wayne,
and I appreciate all the "madmen'' who visit the shop although there are some who are clearly madder than others (you can sometimes identify them by their choice of shirts !!!).

Brett

 

[kogu]

I am curious to watch how it will work out for Britains.
For years and years, there were possibilities for a collector to buy their figures at a pretty good discounted price.
With the new policy, these options will disappear.
I very much doubt, that the collector who was used to discounts for years, will now just turn around and say: Oh well, I guess I go and pay retail now.
It might be that one or the other BMS dealer will sell a few more pieces, but I believe that a considerable amount of the online customers will just call it quits.
So, to me the question is, if Britains did itself a favor?
Konrad

 

[Jack]

In my view the street value or price on certain brands is lower becuase of the fact the price has been driven down by the sellers discounting and this is because of dealers with no overheads (and as I mentioned perhaps also a day job). The collector then comes to expect that kind of pricing.

Wayne,
and I appreciate all the "madmen'' who visit the shop although there are some who are clearly madder than others (you can sometimes identify them by their choice of shirts !!!).

Brett

No ebay seller ever mocked me in a public forum!

 

[waynepoo]

No ebay seller ever mocked me in a public forum!

Again no one mentioned your name, subconscious complex about loud shirt criticism is it? :wink2:{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}
Wayne.

 

[Jack]

Again no one mentioned your name, subconscious complex about loud shirt criticism is it? :wink2:{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}
Wayne.

Go to your Firefly Dio - someone is joking with you about size - does that push you own subconscious buttons...because size doesn't matter... does it?

 

[Peter Reuss]

The economic theory behind all this intrigues me.

In a classic sense, supply and demand meet at a point which determines the price of an item. Classic Econ 101.

But...is the collectible market the same as a classic market? Collectibles are not technically 'necessary' to life (OK, I suspect some collectors might disagree ^&grin). They are purchased bsed on a 'perceived value' of an item. If a collector thinks an item is worth what he paid for it...of if he thinks he got a bargain...then he is a happy bunny. He knows that what he paid for an item is at LEAST what it is still worth. This is where loss aversion comes into play. If that same item is discounted, the collector looks at the item that he paid full price for and thinks, "This isn't worth what I paid for it." The next time he wants to purchase an item, he will hesitate before buying at a retail price, fearing that the value may drop once again. The collector has two choices: he can either wait to see if an item will be discounted (helping him avoid a 'loss' on his purchase) or he can purchase an item from a company that fixes prices and will 'guarantee' that he will not have to see his purchase 'devalued.'

I don't think that the loss aversion effect is insignificant in any collectable market. People feel good about purchases that they think will at least hold their value. Some markets have collapsed because the perceived value could not be sustained, driving prices lower and lower to the point where people left the market because they did not want to 'lose more' on their purchases. I view the pricing structures of many toy soldier manufacturers (and most manufacturers are strict on this) as a way of maintaining a perceived value at a suatainable level for both manufacturers (who need to sell product) and dealers (whom the manufacturers need to make the product visible and available).

I'm not going to pretend that I don't know what side my bread is buttered on...but I find the economics of this interesting. Time for someone to write a graduate thesis on the economics of the toy soldier marketplace!!

 

[Partner]

I am 8 hours away from a BMS and it is in a different country ! By necessity most of my purchases are online but mainly from MBS sites . Wherever I travel I am always on the lookout for a BMS to visit. There is nothing like seeing shelves of soldiers on display . I like to make a purchase as well a a reminder of the trip.

Regarding discounts , I believe in free enterprise and once the wholesaler is paid the retailer should sell for whatever price they want. Cash flow and inventory turnover is the life blood of the retailer.

 

[VIRIATO]

To my dealer friends, I understand your feelings on this and if I was sitting where you are, I may have similar views.

BUT as a simple business 101 guy, I still think that there has to be some sort of flexibility built in for those dud products that don't sell. There has to be a closeout option.

Again, I only look at this very black and white accounting with inventory turnover and sales volume.

I also am a pure capitalist and it is dog eat dog for me, ala all is fair and so on. I still don't like pricing standards. A product either sells at its worth or it doesnt. If you have a good product, it sells.
Also most of my collection comes from the Internet, and another part from a very nice Portuguese dealer who has a website and a small showroom in an office area (and it's really great to see items live). No TS shops that I know of and many kit/hobby shops are going down.

TD

I am not a dealer but I have to agree with this. In my line of work I have to compete with others freely and of course one of the factors is price. The same happens to small stores vs. big chains here, it's the jungle out there. If a dealer needs to discount to sell off excess inventory he should be allowed to do so. If they are not allowed to do so from what I've read above they are still selling at a discount through the back door. Are the manufacturer´s afraid that their prices will be pressed lower by the dealers that sell at a discount? Alternatively should there be a period of time beyond which unsold stock would be allowed to be discounted? Just my 2 cents, what do I know about this really...{sm4}

Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

The economic theory behind all this intrigues me.

In a classic sense, supply and demand meet at a point which determines the price of an item. Classic Econ 101.

But...is the collectible market the same as a classic market? Collectibles are not technically 'necessary' to life (OK, I suspect some collectors might disagree ^&grin). They are purchased bsed on a 'perceived value' of an item. If a collector thinks an item is worth what he paid for it...of if he thinks he got a bargain...then he is a happy bunny. He knows that what he paid for an item is at LEAST what it is still worth. This is where loss aversion comes into play. If that same item is discounted, the collector looks at the item that he paid full price for and thinks, "This isn't worth what I paid for it." The next time he wants to purchase an item, he will hesitate before buying at a retail price, fearing that the value may drop once again. The collector has two choices: he can either wait to see if an item will be discounted (helping him avoid a 'loss' on his purchase) or he can purchase an item from a company that fixes prices and will 'guarantee' that he will not have to see his purchase 'devalued.'

I don't think that the loss aversion effect is insignificant in any collectable market. People feel good about purchases that they think will at least hold their value. Some markets have collapsed because the perceived value could not be sustained, driving prices lower and lower to the point where people left the market because they did not want to 'lose more' on their purchases. I view the pricing structures of many toy soldier manufacturers (and most manufacturers are strick on this) as a way of maintaining a perceived value at a suatainable level for both manufacturers (who need to sell product) and dealers (whom the manufacturers need to make the product visible and available).

I'm not going to pretend that I don't know what side my bread is buttered on...but I find the economics of this interesting. Time for someone to write a graduate thesis on the economics of the toy soldier marketplace!!

IMHO this non discounting policy is an artificial interference with the market basics: supply and demand. It remains to be seen if it does help manufacturers and dealers or if it ends up going against them, as Konrad has very well said. As a consumer I wait for clothes sales all the time for instance, but the stock would probably go nowhere for years if it did not get discounted at the end of the year/after Chrismas...

Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

The Internet provided for most of my collection. Another significative part comes from a very nice Portuguese dealer who has a website and a small showroom inside an office area (great to see the figures live, there just is now replacement for that!). But there are no TS shops here that I know of, only general hobby/kit/toy shops which store your occasional Britains, Distler or Oryon...And most of them are in trouble right now.

Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

Hello,
As a toy soldier collector living in eastern North Carolina all of my purchases are made through online vendors in the USA, UK and France. I have emailed Richard and expressed my displeasure that they have dropped a number of online vendors. Let me qualify my following statement by noting that I am a tenured professor at E.C.U. in Greenville, N.C. I have not had a raise in salary for three years and doubt that one will be forthcoming in the for foreseeable future, given the economy. That said altruism is not a consideration when I make my toy soldier purchases. In other words I do not purchase Britain's products from brick and mortar stores in order to support them. I purchase where I can find the best price, period. Furthermore prices offered by online vendors reflect what I believe is the street value of Britains products. I realize that brick and mortar stores have higher overheads, but as a customer that is not my problem.

I am sorry for the brick and mortar dealers however, the market place has changed for good and many of them will go out of business. In particular, the number of people who can afford this hobby are declining. Furthermore, collectors are not locked into purchasing through brick and mortar stores and there are a lot of products to chose from. For example, I am now shopping on EBAY.fr for Hachette/King and Country French Foreign Legion figures. Good pricing and good value even with shipping costs. The same is true for the Guards Centre, EBAY.co.uk, which offers great prices on older Britains’ merchandise. EBAY, the internet, provides a global platform for toy soldier shopping.

The internet has even lead to the demise of hard copy academic journals. I am on the editorial board of the Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research. Due to market forces, subscriptions from university libraries and jstor, in two years we will only publish soft copies of the journal. On demand printing will be available but for a higher price.

Just my 2 cents albeit with an edge
Benjamin

Very true, I also can't afford to be on a BMS saving mission.

Paulo