Lost my 3rd favorite online dealer..... (2 Viewers)

[waynepoo]

Brett

If you ever have to have a fire sale, I call dibs on the Nile Steamer!

Jack

I wonder if you can time share a Nile Steamer? {eek3}:rolleyes2:
Wayne.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Finance. Huge sums of capital tied up in stock, some of which may not sell well.

Oh is that how it works! So let me get this straight,(just thinking out loud here) Bitains (or any other manufacturer) invest huge amounts of money, time and effort to make figures that hopefully the customer will want. Because they are in the manufactureing side they have to sell this product in order to invest in more new and varied product. So they then sell this product to a dealer, who will take this product to shows, where collectors can see the product in the flesh. In order to take the product to said shows they have to pay for delivery of the product to them (we all know postage isn't cheap) they then have to transport this same product to the show, pay for the table, possibly a hotel room, fead themselves etc. etc. If they do have a shop front that shop has to be closed while they are at the show. Then when they get to the show they probably find a dozen other dealers. Half of these are collectors that simply try to buy in bulk in order to get there own figures cheaply. A lot of these "dealers" have a full time job, so as long as they get what they want they're happy to get rid of the excess at very little mark up. This then drops the "perceived value" across the board.
Having looked around variouse shows, especially London over the past thirty years. It is obvious that these "spare bedroom dealers" can carry vary little stock and only what is popular at that time, so a collector that is interested in an unusual subject has no chance. What they do carry is cheap though! To be a full time dealer on the other hand means that you have to carry all of a manufactureers products and obey any rules that manufacturer sets out. Woebetide that he might want to actualy make a profit though, because now everyone knows at least one other place he can buy it cheaper. Even though the legit trader has had to pay all expenses up front there are still collectors that believe they are being "ripped off" if they're asked to pay more! And of course Britains wouldn't want to protect their traders would they.
I don't know how many people remember the last time this happened, when Britains was still British! What happened then was that the retail prices kept going down as moer and more people were selling it. Collectors stopped buying anything at full retail price when they new if they just waited they could get it dirt cheap, untill the product dried up and Britains/Petite pretty much went bust. Around the same time a lot of small manufactures stopped trading because now the percieved value had gone. It is of interest to me that these figures are now much sought after.

Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

I remember when I was a kid collecting toy soldiers and building model kits, there were over a dozen places close to my house that sold such items. When I got out the hobby in my teens and then back into it in my late twenties, I was shocked at how many of those stores where gone when I visited their locations; try all of them.

As has been pointed out in this thread, we live in a different time today as far as shopping is concerned, there's this new fangled thing called the internet that allows people like me to have a website and sell a product offering to literally a worldwide audience.

I also attend about 20 shows per year where I set up my products and hundreds if not thousands of people get to see them up close and in person. From what I've seen at the shows the past 15 years, the hobby is growing, not shrinking, people keep showing up in large numbers and drop big coin at the shows, they are all thriving, at least the ones I attend.

If a storefront is struggling because they do not have a website and depend solely on walk ins, they are missing the boat in a major way.

Three of the biggest toy soldier companies in the states (and you all know who they are) have both a storefront and a website; they use both to put themselves where they are saleswise.

I've thrown around the idea of opening a store a few times and each time I do, my accountant shoots down the idea faster than you can blink an eye; I pay him a lot of money to keep this ship moving in a positive direction, so I do what he says.

As far as the comments about why don't the manufacturers drop the dealer network altogether and sell their product direct; collectors go to shows and stores to see the product in the flesh, canning the dealer network would kill both the stores and the shows, where as collectors would you go to see the product before buying?

Luckily the manufacturers don't think the way some of you do or myself and hundreds of dealers would be out on the street.

But keep the brilliant suggestions coming..................

The manufacturer could hire people to just go to the shows, where they could see all of the product and talk to a representative of the company about new products etc. Oh, like most of us do now!

I see sarcasm doesn't always come across on the internet. Although it is interesting that when a shop can't compete the online traders are more than happy, when a sugestion is made that might cut out the online traders, less so.
Not nice, is it?

I believe that Britains were trying to get rid of the "spare room dealers" not all online traders.


Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

"'One more interesting thought about perceived value: those who have been in the hobby since the days of $89 tanks perceive that the price has gone through the roof and that current offerings 'are not worth the higher price.' Those who are new to collecting have only known the higher prices, thus often don't have the same perception"

This is very true. New collectors coming in have no previous price comparison and buy based on current pricing across all brands. I recently tried to broker a sale of some long retired K&C items at what I thought was a fair price. The potential buyer appears to have done a Google search and seen the original price and made an offer which was pretty much original RRP but about half the asking price (note in Australia they would have sold for at least 40-50% more than he offfered due to the exchange rate at that time).

Just a point on discounting and discounting by dealers. The ''dealers'' I am referring to in my posts are those on Ebay (ie. as per first post) whose ''business'' is run entirely on the basis of significant discounting to get the sales. Personally as a dealer with a shop I would prefer suppliers not supply those kind of dealers as they drive prices down (sorry guys {sm4}).

Somebody commented on suppliers doing away with dealers and selling direct themselves. An example of this would be FL for the first few years who had no USA shop dealers and then changed this policy recently. In my case I would like to think my shop display and product knowledge (ie. what is available for different eras and pricing and quality issues) helps sell the brands I stock more than any online image can. However you will rarely find me promoting a brand I do not stock (exception being if they cover an era I do not have covered). I am sure other dealers are the same.

Regards
Brett

Brett,
I was trying to be sarcastic (my smileys aren't working) I've been doing this for thirty years, so I know the value of a good trader!

Martin

 

[VIRIATO]

I don't know how many people remember the last time this happened, when Britains was still British! What happened then was that the retail prices kept going down as moer and more people were selling it. Collectors stopped buying anything at full retail price when they new if they just waited they could get it dirt cheap, untill the product dried up and Britains/Petite pretty much went bust. Around the same time a lot of small manufactures stopped trading because now the percieved value had gone. It is of interest to me that these figures are now much sought after.

Martin

Hmm, that's a good point, thanks for sharing your experience. So Britains and others are really trying to protect themselves while passing a heavy part of the risk to dealers. Thats's fine. Possibly there should be some sales periods allowed during the year or under certain circunstances (more than a year of stock lying around) or the 10% sale margin now allowed. But I guess the secondary market is not going to go away, and if the product has good quality and is scarce enough or retired this might mean prices through the roof instead, just look at the fantastic Britains Zulu War series, highly sought after and some unbelievable high prices for retired items lately, amidst a general economic slump... In this particular case I say waiting to get a good price mustn't be a very good gamble^&grin...

Paulo

 

[Martin Tabony]

Hmm, that's a good point, thanks for sharing your experience. So Britains and others are really trying to protect themselves while passing a heavy part of the risk to dealers. Thats's fine. Possibly there should be some sales periods allowed during the year or under certain circunstances (more than a year of stock lying around) or the 10% sale margin now allowed. But I guess the secondary market is not going to go away, and if the product has good quality and is scarce enough or retired this might mean prices through the roof instead, just look at the fantastic Britains Zulu War series, highly sought after and some unbelievable high prices for retired items lately, amidst a general economic slump... In this particular case I say waiting to get a good price mustn't be a very good gamble^&grin...

Paulo

Is it suddenly wrong to try and protect a business that you've built up? Half of the collectors on here only discovered figures because of the investment the larger companies put in. When I sugested that Britains could cut out the dealers, that didn't go down well, so I don't think the traders mind this "risk" as long as they can make a profit.
As to the Zulu war figures on the secondary market, yes they are making good prices but that money isn't going to anyone that will make new figures! If they did, they would be more Zulu Wars because that's what made them the money in the first place. So who is going to make the varied ranges that Britains produce. You've only got to look around here to see the comments about, what a shame this company or that no longer makes figure, especially from the collectors of the less popular periods.

I don't know if youre a football fan but if you only paid for matches were your team scored a goal the money would soon dry up.

As I see it Britains are simply trying to make a level playing field. What we have now is a situation where legit traders (shop or internet) who are paying all the relevant costs and taxes (20% VAT in the UK) are competing against "spare bedroom dealer" who cherry pick and I doubt are VAT registered. Ask yourself how you'd feel if your job was replaced by someone that wasn't paying any taxes? Ofcourse I understand that anyone likes to buy things as cheaply as possible but useing cloths is not a fair comparison, their mark up is masive compared to collectables especially smaller makers that are working hand to mouth.

Two phryses spring to mind "They want Harrods quality at Woolworths prices" and "You can't have your cake and eat it".

Martin

 

[damian]

What about the model that a number of our cottage type manufacturers use. They do not have ny dealers at all. They have websites and you place an order and they make it up for you. Marlborough, WM Hocker, Little Legion etc all use this.

 

[Martin Tabony]

What about the model that a number of our cottage type manufacturers use. They do not have ny dealers at all. They have websites and you place an order and they make it up for you. Marlborough, WM Hocker, Little Legion etc all use this.

That's what I've been involved with but I just thought the discusion was about the companies that have stock made (China) rather than the cottage manufacturers who as you say will never run out because it's made to order. Of course then you get the question "Have you got a U.S. dealer? Well that's another can of worms! (smiley working now?)

Martin

 

[damian]

That's what I've been involved with but I just thought the discusion was about the companies that have stock made (China) rather than the cottage manufacturers who as you say will never run out because it's made to order. Of course then you get the question "Have you got a U.S. dealer? Well that's another can of worms! (smiley working now?)

Martin

Well those companies chose to globalize now they have global problems. The cottage guys stayed local so they do not have these problems to such a great extent

 

[Martin Tabony]

Well those companies chose to globalize now they have global problems. The cottage guys stayed local so they do not have these problems to such a great extent

Very true and it won't harm the cottage business if some of the Chinese made figures disapear!^&grin

Martin

 

[VIRIATO]

I was reading Martyn's post and thinking of the cottage manufacturers. Then saw that Damian came up and posted about it^&grin. That's a different ball game alltogether, and still a beautiful one at that. When they have dealers do they use non discounting policies too? I also did say that if Britains wanted to protect their product through this policy I would understand it (that's fine I said), nothing wrong with it, just a little bit artificial interference with the market of course. But like Damian very well said, Britains and others have chosen a different kind of game, a global bigger one I guess, hence face different problems and use different policies compared to the cottage industries (am I getting the right picture?).
On discounts, of course I really like a discount but that is very very far from being the only factor leading my collecting choices (at least for now^&grin^&grin^&grin).

Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

Very true and it won't harm the cottage business if some of the Chinese made figures disapear!^&grin

Martin

I have this curse that is haunting me^&grin: when I look at a figure or a set I don't care if it is Chinese made or cottage manufactured, if it's matte or gloss, if I like it I like it^&grin...
Oh and Martin, I am self employed and unfortunately have to compete with people who don't pay their taxes ALL THE TIME. Of course that is very unfair and I hate it but it's a fact of life and I just have to live with it the best way I can{eek3}...

Regards,
Paulo

 

[Warrior]

The manufacturer could hire people to just go to the shows, where they could see all of the product and talk to a representative of the company about new products etc. Oh, like most of us do now!

The cost of attending shows is pretty steep and I can speak from personal experience as I attend over 20 per year, the most of anyone in the states outside of The Hobby Bunker, he goes to the most.................oh and lets not forget Crown Miniatures, he goes to a lot too, even the London shows three times a year, maybe he wears the crown then.

Here's an idea; why doesn't Andy, Richard, Rick, Brian, Thomas, Gerard, Matt, John, etc, etc, etc, all get together and buy a tour bus and paint "WORLD TOY SOLDIER TOUR" on the side of it, then have a second bus with all the goodies in it following along as they go from show to show across the US where they each set up their stand and pitch their products.

Wouldn't that be awesome; imagine all the toy soldier groupies hanging out in the hotel waiting for the tour bus to arrive and when it does, someone screams "THEY'RE HERE!!! THEY'RE HERE!!!" and you can wait in the lobby to get autographs, take pictures, blow kisses, throw underwear and all the usual things groupies do.

You could sell teeshirts too that say "World Toy Soldier tour 2012" on the back and list all the stops on the front, truly spectacular idea, is it not.

Taking it worldwide might be more difficult, perhaps they can all pitch in and buy a plane for that.

How's that for sarcasm...............

 

[VIRIATO]

The cost of attending shows is pretty steep and I can speak from personal experience as I attend over 20 per year, the most of anyone in the states outside of The Hobby Bunker, he goes to the most.................oh and lets not forget Crown Miniatures, he goes to a lot too, even the London shows three times a year, maybe he wears the crown then.

Here's an idea; why doesn't Andy, Richard, Rick, Brian, Thomas, Gerard, Matt, John, etc, etc, etc, all get together and buy a tour bus and paint "WORLD TOY SOLDIER TOUR" on the side of it, then have a second bus with all the goodies in it following along as they go from show to show across the US where they each set up their stand and pitch their products.

Wouldn't that be awesome; imagine all the toy soldier groupies hanging out in the hotel waiting for the tour bus to arrive and when it does, someone screams "THEY'RE HERE!!! THEY'RE HERE!!!" and you can wait in the lobby to get autographs, take pictures, blow kisses, throw underwear and all the usual things groupies do.

You could sell teeshirts too that say "World Toy Soldier tour 2012" on the back and list all the stops on the front, truly spectacular idea, is it not.

Taking it worldwide might be more difficult, perhaps they can all pitch in and buy a plane for that.

How's that for sarcasm...............

Love the bus part, you've really made me laugh now^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin...

Cheers,
Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

Ladies and gentlemen, it's now official, this thread has upgraded its status to DEFCON 3^&grin...


Paulo

 

[Warrior]

Love the bus part, you've really made me laugh now^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin...

Cheers,
Paulo

Glad I could make you laugh..........I do like the "spare room dealers" line, that is brilliant on Martins part, I'm going to use that instead of "ham and eggers" which is what I call them.

Had one of these spare room dealers across from me at a show recently and here was his sales pitch whenever anyone got within ten feet of his table "ALL prices are negotiable, just ask and we can haggle"................man it that brilliant or what, he must have attended one of those weekend "how to peddle toy soldiers in your spare time" seminars hosted by zip zeller...............

 

[Martin Tabony]

Glad I could make you laugh..........I do like the "spare room dealers" line, that is brilliant on Martins part, I'm going to use that instead of "ham and eggers" which is what I call them.

Had one of these spare room dealers across from me at a show recently and here was his sales pitch whenever anyone got within ten feet of his table "ALL prices are negotiable, just ask and we can haggle"................man it that brilliant or what, he must have attended one of those weekend "how to peddle toy soldiers in your spare time" seminars hosted by zip zeller...............

To be honest what I hate is when they sneak in to see what one dealer is selling it for, then marking their stuff down! Although that's not just "spare room dealers" you've already mentioned someone that was doing it at the London show.

By the way that's not sarcasm, if you could set it up there would be a market!^&grin^&grin

Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

Ladies and gentlemen, it's now official, this thread has upgraded its status to DEFCON 3^&grin...


Paulo

I don't have DEFCONs I'm on Bikini Black Alfa.

Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

Glad I could make you laugh..........I do like the "spare room dealers" line, that is brilliant on Martins part, I'm going to use that instead of "ham and eggers" which is what I call them.

Had one of these spare room dealers across from me at a show recently and here was his sales pitch whenever anyone got within ten feet of his table "ALL prices are negotiable, just ask and we can haggle"................man it that brilliant or what, he must have attended one of those weekend "how to peddle toy soldiers in your spare time" seminars hosted by zip zeller...............

The next step is when they creep up and wisper " psst, mista you wana buy some toy soldiers" and open their raincoat to show all the figures hanging on the inside!^&grin^&grin

Martin

 

[Warrior]

The next step is when they creep up and wisper " psst, mista you wana buy some toy soldiers" and open their raincoat to show all the figures hanging on the inside!^&grin^&grin

Martin

Ok, now that's comical, but don't say anymore Martin as you're giving them too many good ideas...........next they won't bother getting show tables but set up out in the parking lot and sell out of the trunk of their car...................