Loving the Elephant! (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Ok guys i'm definetly going to get me one of these bad boys.Will any of you be using it in an Arnhem or Normandy scenario?.Me i just really like the look of it and have to have one!

Rob

 

[rws591]

Ok guys i'm definetly going to get me one of these bad boys.Will any of you be using it in an Arnhem or Normandy scenario?.Me i just really like the look of it and have to have one!

Rob

Since its not wintery and i already have 5 German Tanks for the bulge i think ill be putting it in my Little Arnhem Dio

 

[Combat]

Were there any Elephants at Normanday or Arnhem? I was under the impression that they were used primarily in Russia and Italy. A few were also in Berlin for the final battle.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

The advertising claims "No reason why it can't also look good in a Normandy or Arnhem diorama". I can think of a pretty good reason - it was never in those theatres to my knowledge! Certainly not in Arnhem - I have the Concord book "German Armored Units at Arnhem" and it lists every vehicle present - no elephants for sure. This was a rare beast that only served in a couple of units that saw action mainly in the East but also Italy. Unfortunately these are also the two theatres K&C has produced the fewest products for.

 

[jazzeum]

What I've found so far that it was confined to Russia and Italy, with a few in Berlin. There is mention that it was in France but I don't know about Normandy.

This raises the question of why it's called "BBG" when it was apparently not in the Battle of the Bulge

 

[debrito]

What I've found so far that it was confined to Russia and Italy, with a few in Berlin. There is mention that it was in France but I don't know about Normandy.

This raises the question of why it's called "BBG" when it was apparently not in the Battle of the Bulge

Another GOOD reason to bring some East front characters. These beast was first used (I think) in the Battle of Koursk June 1943.

Cheers

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

Here is what I have on these big boys, The Ferdinands were issued to Panzerabteilungen 653 and 654 in April and May of 1943. These units fought at Kursk and were used to plug holes in the line through out the summer and fall of 43. The units were pulled from the lines in the late autum of 43 so the vehicles could be overhauled. The were refitted with the commanders cupola and hull MGs. There was some consolidation of units and the 653d became a Battalion and the there was a 614th company equiped with these vehicles also. They were also deployed in Italy and I have not discovered which units had them but will continue to dig to see if I can sort it out. Here is the kicker though. The 653rd was part of the 6th SS Panzer Army and was used in Operation Griffon in support of the attack on Leige and Huy. So it is possible there were some of these vehicles in the mix of the really jumbled equipment the Germans had thrown together inorder to make Autum Mist work. The information on this operation came from the book Panzer a Revolution in Warfare by Roger Edwards. Pg 244. So its quite possible there were some of these bad boys in the Ardennes but I cant say 100% for sure. So it will be interesting to see what K&C does with this vehicle.

All the best

Dave

 

[Combat]

Hi Guys,

So its quite possible there were some of these bad boys in the Ardennes but I cant say 100% for sure. So it will be interesting to see what K&C does with this vehicle.

All the best

Dave

My understanding is that a few Elephants were converted for other purposes (e.g. bergepanther) and used in France in that capacity. So that may explain it. Note that I am not knocking KC, just responding to questions about whether they could be used as part of a Normandy or Arnhem dio. I have been asking for the Elephant for a long time - so very pleased to see it released. It will join my German sets in Berlin.

 

[damian]

My understanding is that a few Elephants were converted for other purposes (e.g. bergepanther) and used in France in that capacity. So that may explain it. Note that I am not knocking KC, just responding to questions about whether they could be used as part of a Normandy or Arnhem dio. I have been asking for the Elephant for a long time - so very pleased to see it released. It will join my German sets in Berlin.

So it is fine for Fall of Berlin type diorama then?
Regards
Damian

 

[jazzeum]

Damian,

I believe so, yes. This is from Achtung Panzer:

"Elephants saw final service with Kampfgruppe "Ritter" in area of Zossen (south of Berlin) in mid April of 1945. As of January 1st of 1945, there were still 4 Elephants in service of which some took part in the defence of Berlin as part of Kampfgruppe Ritter."

 

[damian]

Thanks Brad. It is good to know I can use it for something. it is a great model but I have to make choices and a stand alone thing is difficult to justify.
Damian

 

[debrito]

All theses Ant-tank weaponries were much useful as defensive way against T-34-35, KV-1, since after Stalingrad and Kursk, the Wehmarcht started to move backwards into Germany frontier.

Created by Ferdinand Porsche Company
SdKfz 184, Ferdinand
Equipped with 88mm, could face any of Soviet Tanks and destroyed

Cheers


Cheers

 

[Combat]

Thanks Brad. It is good to know I can use it for something. it is a great model but I have to make choices and a stand alone thing is difficult to justify.
Damian

It could also be used in an Italian Anzio scene with generic KC Wehrmacht and/or US GI figures. Something a little different.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

There is mention that it was in France but I don't know about Normandy.

Brad, I read the Achtung Panzer article you linked to and I don't think it specifically says they were in France, what it says is "PzJagAbt 654 was moved to France in late 1943 and rearmed with Jagdpanthers". So while the unit formerly fielding elephants was in France, it apparently traded the elephants for Jagdpanthers.

I think the easiest thing to do for most K&C collectors is put this in with your Berlin stuff, which is pretty cool because that line has been neglected for a while. Or, as Combat says, get a bit more creative with Italy or Eastern Front. For the latter, some of the Berlin troops (e.g. WS 63 & 64) work well as Eastern front Wehrmacht soldiers. The elephant was not in SS units so it's a little less likely to see them around SS figures in the East, especially after Kursk.

 

[Currahee Chris]

This is a fun thread-

My book is saying this beast was a Tank Destroyer. I always thought it was an arty piece.

200mm armor, though prone to sappers, which the Russians used to great effect against these things too as they lacked infantry defensive measures (which Dave discusses in regards to the MG refits). Looks like the Russians would blow the tracks and then dispatch the crews.

Kursk looks to be the Baptism of Fire.

Had a range of only 93 miles!!! Gas guzzler to say the least and at 18.6 mph, it was REALLY slow, even for 1943. At 64 tons, it was slightly heavier than the Abrams

I gotta think this thing is best dio'd on the Eastern Front- how cool would it be if this were a precursor to some KURSK pieces!!!!!

I am not sure I am reading this correctly- it appears as if Porsche and Henschel were in competition for the Tiger 1 contract. Porsche got the T1 but Henschel's design was the winner as the Ellie Tank Destroyer- am I reading that correctly??

 

[jazzeum]

Brad, I read the Achtung Panzer article you linked to and I don't think it specifically says they were in France, what it says is "PzJagAbt 654 was moved to France in late 1943 and rearmed with Jagdpanthers". So while the unit formerly fielding elephants was in France, it apparently traded the elephants for Jagdpanthers.

Yes, you're probably right. I inferred too much. Should know better

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Chris, that's right - Henschel's version won the Tiger I prototype competition but there was about 100 Porsche prototypes already produced, and Porsche still wanted to see his baby see action so they turned it into the elephant - that's more or less why this piece of equipment exists. It seems whenever Henschel and Porsche competed the Germans would end up making both vehicles anyway.

 

[panda1gen]

Chris, that's right - Henschel's version won the Tiger I prototype competition but there was about 100 Porsche prototypes already produced, and Porsche still wanted to see his baby see action so they turned it into the elephant - that's more or less why this piece of equipment exists. It seems whenever Henschel and Porsche competed the Germans would end up making both vehicles anyway.

Also, Hitler wanted the longer 88mm L71 (pak 43) on the Tiger - this version would go on a TD, but the 'poor little Tiger' as was only had the shorter version L56 (against 2 and 6pdr guns in August 1942), until the King Tiger was born to mount it.

The Elephant would have still been good against all of the Allied armour at the end of the war, even the JS series.

I agree, Russia, Italy or Berlin would fit, probably not France - unless you fancy it .

 

[Currahee Chris]

The Elephant would have still been good against all of the Allied armour at the end of the war, even the JS series.

I'd probably have to agree with you there- 200mm armor is THICK!! But at 18mph and with a 93 mile range, it would have a hard VERY hard time staying out of the way of allied bombers. The fuel consumption of that beast is just horrific!! Really made it unsuitable for the Kursk move and fire engagement as well.

Lots of chatter on the net on this one

 

[panda1gen]

I'd probably have to agree with you there- 200mm armor is THICK!! But at 18mph and with a 93 mile range, it would have a hard VERY hard time staying out of the way of allied bombers. The fuel consumption of that beast is just horrific!! Really made it unsuitable for the Kursk move and fire engagement as well.

Lots of chatter on the net on this one

Agree with this point Chris, point is though, as a mobile pill box it is hard to beat - the fact that four survived all that time........

Any tank in Berlin would need that sort of armour though - have you seen the photos of the 152mm and bigger howitzers firing down the street in Berlin!!!!

If in a good defense, as in Italy, where fire and manouver were restricted....... against Shermans with pop guns in comparison...from 2 plus KM across a valley, with camo etc

As for Russia, doctrine learned at Kursk the hard way, lay back, away from infantry. Where you have good optics on the open steppe and can brew a T34 from excess of 2km......the average life of a T34 was six weeks - and most of the crews went with it - you can see why with these babies.

But once the Russians learned real blitzkreig, for example in 1944 Bagration, they just cut through the weak points and penetrated deep, then fuel consumption and speed would really matter.