Marshal Petain - Both Hero and Traitor - But No Longer on the Map (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

France does have a history of anti-semitism that was especially strong in the military, witness the Dreyfus Affair that tore France apart at the turn of the 19th-20th century. There is also a constant struggle within France regarding "The Resistance" in WW2. Post war legend has it almost all Frenchmen were involved when in fact it was the opposite. The outstanding documentary "The Sorrow and the Pity" addressed exactly that. Some history is indeed hard to swallow. -- Al

I also understand DeGualle wanted all British SOE agents, who had done such a heroic terribly dangerous job, out of France as soon as possible. I think this was a disgrace myself, what those men and women did to help free France and to be treated like that because of small minded National pride, well I won't say anything about Degaulle on the day a very nice figure of him is released!

Rob

 

[Sans Culotte]

On my first trip to France, I met a man whose family had been actively engaged in the Resistance, smuggling downed Allied pilots to freedom. Death truly did go before dishonor in that family. It was all about choices. Petain had choices, too. Only his age & his WWI fame prevented the same fate as Laval's. King Christian of Denmark wore a Star of David and so did so many other Danes. Drop the Vichy water in the trash can & kick it over for good measure when you're dealing with a Petain who shrinks from greatness to do the cheap & sordid thing. He changed his own stirring words from Verdun to "they shall pass!"

 

[lancer]

On my first trip to France, I met a man whose family had been actively engaged in the Resistance, smuggling downed Allied pilots to freedom. Death truly did go before dishonor in that family. It was all about choices. Petain had choices, too. Only his age & his WWI fame prevented the same fate as Laval's. King Christian of Denmark wore a Star of David and so did so many other Danes. Drop the Vichy water in the trash can & kick it over for good measure when you're dealing with a Petain who shrinks from greatness to do the cheap & sordid thing. He changed his own stirring words from Verdun to "they shall pass!"

Petain is a man who is easy to admire or hate depending on which war you are dealing with. It is my opinion that if not for Petain's handling of the mutinies and his handling of the army post-mutiny, France and thus the Allies, lose WW1 or at least must negotiate peace at a disadvantage. The USA never gets the chance to help turn the tide. History changes, a great what if. As for the disaster that was Vichy, what happens to France if Petain isn't drafted into the position he was? Form the gov't under Laval? How much worse would the whole period have been? Petain didn't take the position to help the Germans, he did it to help the French, thinking he could help influence events. It didn't work for many reasons. Dealing with the Nazis was a delusion and corruption along with the many collaborators in the Vichy gov't (yes, I know this includes Petain, by definition) made the whole effort a losing proposition. The whole question of treason during this period is still a sore point in France. Petain could have refused to head Vichy, but I think his initial intentions were good. Choose whatever reason, but the good intentions were doomed as anyone who ever tried to deal with the Nazis found out. -- Al

 

[Napoleon1er]

Even Benedict Arnold was a patriot once. Often, it's not the best or greatest things that people are remembered for, but the least or last deeds.

Arnold was our best general!

 

[Napoleon1er]

I have done a lot of reading on Mr. Petain. I just don't know. This is coming from a Jewish person too!

 

[Mitch]

Although the article by combat was rather incriminating on face value I always am concerned when these things just happen to turn up in the hands of those who have the very most to gain from it. I know lots of documents have emerged in the recent years with the fall of the russian regime etc but, who were the experts who said it was his writing were they challenged and, if not why not? Another question is was it really Petain running the show as the document purports or were there other senior officials using Petain as as figure head??

I still don't see, from what I have read, how he is a traitor in terms of say quisling et al.

I also find it startling that he is being seen as some form of anti semitic when at that time large proportions of the continent were rather anti semitic. I just cannot see how everything can be laid at this mans feet unless, its just convinient to do so in current climes
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Although the article by combat was rather incriminating on face value I always am concerned when these things just happen to turn up in the hands of those who have the very most to gain from it. I know lots of documents have emerged in the recent years with the fall of the russian regime etc but, who were the experts who said it was his writing were they challenged and, if not why not? Another question is was it really Petain running the show as the document purports or were there other senior officials using Petain as as figure head??

I still don't see, from what I have read, how he is a traitor in terms of say quisling et al.

I also find it startling that he is being seen as some form of anti semitic when at that time large proportions of the continent were rather anti semitic. I just cannot see how everything can be laid at this mans feet unless, its just convinient to do so in current climes
Mitch

Good questions, Mitch. As with most history, there is probably a little bit of truth in all points of view. French trials following the war were rather one-sided and full of vitrol towards those on trial, especially Petain's trial. Determination on the part of the French to root out scape goats to blame for France's failures was more akin to a witch hunt than justice. It was an ugly period. Getting to the truth in Petain's case is almost impossible because there is no real middle ground. Those who accuse do so with a hate that borders on fanaticism while those who defend tend to totally gloss over the bad with a myriad of excuses. It is really tough to decipher. I believe that Petain went in with good intentions and those intentions became subverted. As head man he is ultimately responsible but I don't believe he deserves the vitrol heaped on him. Time and place, walk in the man's shoes. No one could deal with the Nazis. -- Al

 

[Combat]

Although the article by combat was rather incriminating on face value I always am concerned when these things just happen to turn up in the hands of those who have the very most to gain from it. I know lots of documents have emerged in the recent years with the fall of the russian regime etc but, who were the experts who said it was his writing were they challenged and, if not why not? Another question is was it really Petain running the show as the document purports or were there other senior officials using Petain as as figure head??

I still don't see, from what I have read, how he is a traitor in terms of say quisling et al.

I also find it startling that he is being seen as some form of anti semitic when at that time large proportions of the continent were rather anti semitic. I just cannot see how everything can be laid at this mans feet unless, its just convinient to do so in current climes
Mitch

I don't believe there is any real debate that Petain was anti-semitic, collaborated with the Germans, and facilitated the rounding up of Jews for deportation to the death camps. Those are matters of historical fact. No one that I can think of has anything to "gain" by supporting those facts with false evidence. Nor is there any evidence that's the case here. If there is any bias inherent in discussing Petain's role during the Vichy era, it derives from his record in WWI which mitigates, in the opinion of some, judgment of his actions. Absent his WWI contributions, I doubt he would be viewed any differently than someone like Hans Frank.

 

[Currahee Chris]

This is a very interesting and important find. First I have seen of it. It will certainly turn the perception of Petain's and Vichy's role in WW2 on it's head. Thanks for posting this. Don't know how I missed it. -- Al

You missed it because he spend an hour between posts typing all that up and proofing and polishing it to sound like a professional editorial/article

 

[lancer]

I don't believe there is any real debate that Petain was anti-semitic, collaborated with the Germans, and facilitated the rounding up of Jews for deportation to the death camps. Those are matters of historical fact. No one that I can think of has anything to "gain" by supporting those facts with false evidence. Nor is there any evidence that's the case here. If there is any bias inherent in discussing Petain's role during the Vichy era, it derives from his record in WWI which mitigates, in the opinion of some, judgment of his actions. Absent his WWI contributions, I doubt he would be viewed any differently than someone like Hans Frank.

True, as far as it goes. Absent his WW1 contributions, Petain would have been nothing more than a long retired ex-military man with no status, or standing in France and of no real importance, thus he would never have been in position to head Vichy anyway. Petain must be discussed as the whole of his parts, as any one is. -- Al

 

[jazzeum]

I can't agree with Al's post. The man is lucky he wasn't executed like Laval. Unfortunately, you can't separate people from what they have done and isolate their good parts from their bad parts.

 

[lancer]

I can't agree with Al's post. The man is lucky he wasn't executed like Laval. Unfortunately, you can't separate people from what they have done and isolate their good parts from their bad parts.

Which post, Brad? I do not condone trying to separate the good from the bad, just that all sides be taken into account. I do agree that Petain was lucky not to be executed and that was because DeGaulle commuted his sentence, purely on grounds of past service (WW1) and personal feelings. -- Al