Napoleonic Wars - Waterloo as post script (2 Viewers)

[Fitzgibbon]

I recently visited les Invalides in Paris; an awe inspiring institution and a great national monument. But, aware of the French Revolution's central contest between monarchy and republicanism, I was teased by the actions of King Louis Phillipe and his motive for repatriating the remains of Napoleon from St Helena to France, and the grandiose project that entailed. It seems today that it positions what is arguably French history such that it is accessible to the French people, and that wresting it from the British was an astute political manoeuvre.
As my mind wandered along this track, it occurred to me that the icon foremost in the global imagination tends to negate more than a decade of intensely active history. Napoleon was beaten at the Battle of Nations (Leipzig) in 1813. It was an epic battle of a scale that dwarfs Waterloo. So why are we so hung up on Waterloo?

 

[Obee]

Napoleon was beaten at the Battle of Nations (Leipzig) in 1813. It was an epic battle of a scale that dwarfs Waterloo. So why are we so hung up on Waterloo?

Maybe it's because Waterloo was the final battle, and the British were the main opponents AND they then wrote the history ??????

If you get to Germany, go to Leipzig and see the Memorial to the Nations, and the 1813 Museum there, well worth a visit and find out why this is the most important battle of the Napoleonic Wars, from the German perspective !!!



Taken in May 2017

John

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Maybe it's because Waterloo was the final battle, and the British were the main opponents AND they then wrote the history ??????

If you get to Germany, go to Leipzig and see the Memorial to the Nations, and the 1813 Museum there, well worth a visit and find out why this is the most important battle of the Napoleonic Wars, from the German perspective !!!

View attachment 221159

Taken in May 2017

John

Thanks John,
Next visit it will be on the list. I agree that we get a dominantly anglophile potted version of Napoleonic history, which probably explains the implied British defeat of Napoleon. But Waterloo is such a ho hum affair - no military wizardry, just a slogging match of attrition. There is little to indicate why Napoleon was considered such a threat. Following Austerlitz, of which little is made, the most interesting campaign is Austria in 1809. Through the contest of Aspern Essling to the major head butting of Wagram, there was a lot to indicate the mental jockeying that portrays the challenges of the day. And it is the dogged determination of Austria that assured the eventual defeat of Napoleon. So much richness is overlooked in the focus on Waterloo.

 

[Warrior]

So why are we so hung up on Waterloo?

I blame it on the ABBA song.

 

[Obee]

Thanks John,
Next visit it will be on the list.

While in Leipzig take time to also visit Torhaus Dölitz, the Toy Soldier Museum just south of the city.

I made email contact with them before I left and got all the info on which tram to get there, and then which bus to get to the Monument of the Nations.
Its open on weekends and Wednesdays, and has over 100,000 flats on display in various dioramas and well worth a few hours exploration.
Check out the website http://www.torhaus-doelitz.eu/index.php and make it a must.

John

 

[Fitzgibbon]

While in Leipzig take time to also visit Torhaus Dölitz, the Toy Soldier Museum just south of the city.

I made email contact with them before I left and got all the info on which tram to get there, and then which bus to get to the Monument of the Nations.
Its open on weekends and Wednesdays, and has over 100,000 flats on display in various dioramas and well worth a few hours exploration.
Check out the website http://www.torhaus-doelitz.eu/index.php and make it a must.

John

Thanks John - looks like a worthy visit. I visited Le Drapeaux de France and was amazed at the quality of flats. Artwork at its best! Not something that ever fired my imagination but credit where credit's due; they were outstanding.
Bob

 

[The Military Workshop]

I blame it on the ABBA song.

and the Scots / Highlanders were at Waterloo.

 

[Obee]

and the Scots / Highlanders were at Waterloo.

AND the "Bloody' Irish .... 6th 'Inniskilling' Dragons and the 27th Foot Inniskilling Regiment !!!!

John

 

[Fitzgibbon]

AND the "Bloody' Irish .... 6th 'Inniskilling' Dragons and the 27th Foot Inniskilling Regiment !!!!

John

Yes, but we know this from the potted history of that skirmish. Who was at Wagram when 300,000 combatants fought to an inconclusive end over two days? The promised British support for Austria did not show up until August and then could not beat the French Commander Bernadotte who was in disgrace following poor performance at Wagram. Walcheren has some interesting diorama possibilities but no-one makes defeated British for Napoleonic battles. 8 million pounds and 40 ships of the Royal Navy failed to take the French.
The Austrian campaign has some doable scenes with figures that are available but there are a lot of gaps.

 

[Johnboy]

Yes, but we know this from the potted history of that skirmish. Who was at Wagram when 300,000 combatants fought to an inconclusive end over two days? The promised British support for Austria did not show up until August and then could not beat the French Commander Bernadotte who was in disgrace following poor performance at Wagram. Walcheren has some interesting diorama possibilities but no-one makes defeated British for Napoleonic battles. 8 million pounds and 40 ships of the Royal Navy failed to take the French.
The Austrian campaign has some doable scenes with figures that are available but there are a lot of gaps.[/QUOTE
I would say that Walcheren is mainly remembered as a British fever disaster most of the troops never fully recovered ,
As a general rule , the British in the Napoleonic wars never fielded massive armies (British finance mainly went towards propping up the various Europeon coalitions , the "fighting" cash as a priority went to the Navy which protected the trade lanes which generated financial support for Europe)
Wellington usually made do with 30,000-50,000 troops but managed to pin down 100,000 French in Spain , with the help of Portugal and Spain. Wellington could only dream of commmanding 100,000 men. Austria should have done much better sooner with their numbers. During the Napoleonic period British troops in relatively small numbers were spread over a fair area around the world also fighting an unwanted war in America.
The "slogging match" that WAS Waterloo had to be just that. Wellington promised to stand there and wait for Prussian assistance and this is of course what happened. Bear in mind that it is on record that during breakfast for Napoleon and his staff several of his "Peninsular " generals warned against a direct attack on well placed British infantry .He ignored their suggestions. Although there were several more small scale actions later, Waterloo was and is to most people the climax of over 20 years warfare and it fell to Wellington and Blucher to finish it and no wishfull thinking can change that. Like many countries Britain had defeats as well as victories but came out of the wars with an Empire that lasted for another century.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Yes, but we know this from the potted history of that skirmish. Who was at Wagram when 300,000 combatants fought to an inconclusive end over two days? The promised British support for Austria did not show up until August and then could not beat the French Commander Bernadotte who was in disgrace following poor performance at Wagram. Walcheren has some interesting diorama possibilities but no-one makes defeated British for Napoleonic battles. 8 million pounds and 40 ships of the Royal Navy failed to take the French.
The Austrian campaign has some doable scenes with figures that are available but there are a lot of gaps.[/QUOTE
I would say that Walcheren is mainly remembered as a British fever disaster most of the troops never fully recovered ,
As a general rule , the British in the Napoleonic wars never fielded massive armies (British finance mainly went towards propping up the various Europeon coalitions , the "fighting" cash as a priority went to the Navy which protected the trade lanes which generated financial support for Europe)
Wellington usually made do with 30,000-50,000 troops but managed to pin down 100,000 French in Spain , with the help of Portugal and Spain. Wellington could only dream of commmanding 100,000 men. Austria should have done much better sooner with their numbers. During the Napoleonic period British troops in relatively small numbers were spread over a fair area around the world also fighting an unwanted war in America.
The "slogging match" that WAS Waterloo had to be just that. Wellington promised to stand there and wait for Prussian assistance and this is of course what happened. Bear in mind that it is on record that during breakfast for Napoleon and his staff several of his "Peninsular " generals warned against a direct attack on well placed British infantry .He ignored their suggestions. Although there were several more small scale actions later, Waterloo was and is to most people the climax of over 20 years warfare and it fell to Wellington and Blucher to finish it and no wishfull thinking can change that. Like many countries Britain had defeats as well as victories but came out of the wars with an Empire that lasted for another century.

Still on different pages I think. Napoleon had already 'met his Waterloo' at Leipzig at the hands of a united Europe. His escape from Elba and the 100 days campaign failed because he could not unite disenchanted France. His Giants were gone; Lannes at Aspern Essling, Lasalle at Wagram to name just two. Murat in disgrace. Ney of confused loyalty etc. The outcome little more than a matter of probabilities.
We don't need to look past the TS inventory to see the result, however, of prioritising that skirmish as representative of the Napoleonic Wars. Though it pales in comparison to so many full-scale battles, the telling of those rich events is lost.
Casting about for alternatives for dioramas is a limiting experience.

 

[Grognard]

Still on different pages I think. Napoleon had already 'met his Waterloo' at Leipzig at the hands of a united Europe. His escape from Elba and the 100 days campaign failed because he could not unite disenchanted France. His Giants were gone; Lannes at Aspern Essling, Lasalle at Wagram to name just two. Murat in disgrace. Ney of confused loyalty etc. The outcome little more than a matter of probabilities.
We don't need to look past the TS inventory to see the result, however, of prioritising that skirmish as representative of the Napoleonic Wars. Though it pales in comparison to so many full-scale battles, the telling of those rich events is lost.
Casting about for alternatives for dioramas is a limiting experience.

I think the writing was on the wall starting with Spain and even more with Russia...It was just a matter of years. I agree with the above. Also that the fact that most of his remaining "available" staff was not hungry for more battles but more at a stage of their life were they wanted to enjoy their position and wealth didn't help to motivate them to follow him further.

 

[nysoldiers]

If you are willing to go "gloss" there are opportunities to collect and display the "early Empire" and non-Waterloo battles.

I have done large dioramas of Leipzig using ATS French, Russians, Prussians, Austrians and Swedes.
Soldiers of the World also did French, Prussians and Austrians for earlier campaigns.
Kronprinz does some nice 1805 (Austerlitz) Russians, Austrians and French in matt.
K&C did Russians for Borodino and now TCS has Russian Grenadiers, artillery and upcoming cavalry for Borodino. For the retreat from Moscow you have FL, Fusilier and Tradition.
Trophy had a nice line of Napoleon in Egypt as did K&C, ATS and FL.


Of course FL has Austrians and Russians in beautiful matt painting.

Waterloo still dominates toy soldiers for the Napoleonic era but I believe more early Empire will be available down the road.

 

[Obee]

If you are willing to go "gloss" there are opportunities to collect and display the "early Empire" and non-Waterloo battles.

I have done large dioramas of Leipzig using ATS French, Russians, Prussians, Austrians and Swedes.
Soldiers of the World also did French, Prussians and Austrians for earlier campaigns.

Yes, Nik at Alexanders Toy Soldiers has the biggest range of figures from all eras of the Napoleonic Wars.

I have painted a lot of castings, but he will make them up in gloss or matte, depending on the customer.

Bavarian

Prussian 1805

Prussian 1815

Saxony

Russian 1812

Check them all out here: https://www.ats-uk.net/

John

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Yes, Nik at Alexanders Toy Soldiers has the biggest range of figures from all eras of the Napoleonic Wars.

I have painted a lot of castings, but he will make them up in gloss or matte, depending on the customer.

Hi John, "casting about" wasn't intended to be a pun but I get the point. Not much available then make your own or switch to gloss - well gloss isn't an attraction to me so perhaps...

 

[Johnboy]

Still on different pages I think. Napoleon had already 'met his Waterloo' at Leipzig at the hands of a united Europe. His escape from Elba and the 100 days campaign failed because he could not unite disenchanted France. His Giants were gone; Lannes at Aspern Essling, Lasalle at Wagram to name just two. Murat in disgrace. Ney of confused loyalty etc. The outcome little more than a matter of probabilities.
We don't need to look past the TS inventory to see the result, however, of prioritising that skirmish as representative of the Napoleonic Wars. Though it pales in comparison to so many full-scale battles, the telling of those rich events is lost.
Casting about for alternatives for dioramas is a limiting experience.

I am also a Napoleonic collector and have no particular reason not to collect Europeon troops from the various anti Bonaparte coalitions. It is true that I prefer to collect figures involved in the Waterloo or 100 days campaign .There were several major battles besides Waterloo including Ligny, and Quatre Bras. This 100 days saw troops from Britain ,Belguim,Holland, various German states and of course the independant Prussians also the French army of the North including many allied states. The French were still a formidable army, many veterans of the Empire gathering to the "Eagles". The "ball park" figure for all troops involved in this campaign is over 300,000 men SOME SKIRMISH.
As to the appeal of Waterloo, in a comparatively small area, there were attacks on well defended strongholds, major infantry assaults, mega artillery bombardments, large cavalry attacks, and an assault by one of the most famous units of the Napoleonic wars. It saw a "nick of time" rescue and the total defeat of a field army commanded by one of the best commanders of the age.I hope I have not overstated this but it was a decisive battle, many previous Battles were not.I agree that many of Napoleon's better General's and Marshal's were unavailable, but as this was (as has been noted) a "slogging match"the onus was on the valor of the soldiers rather than intricate tactics. So I would contend there is plenty there for any collector to get their teeth into. Another good source for a different diorama could be Austrian and Russian troops on the road marching like hell to get there.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

The "ball park" figure for all troops involved in this campaign is over 300,000 men SOME SKIRMISH.
As to the appeal of Waterloo, in a comparatively small area, there were attacks on well defended strongholds, major infantry assaults, mega artillery bombardments, large cavalry attacks, and an assault by one of the.

Comparatively small is a good comment that goes to the heart of the topic. Now I wouldn't call myself a collector but more a history buff and dio maker with a long term interest in Napoleonic History and its political context so I guess we are on a different page. Skirmish is a comparative term and Waterloo rates in scale alongside some of the engagements following Leipzig before Napoleon was exiled to Elba. But it does not rate with the likes of Leipzig, Borodino or Wagram. Artillery alone - at Wagram over 800 pieces spread over a front of twenty kilometres with a grand battery of 100 pieces deployed on a front of two kilometres - a two day epic battle with Austria withdrawing in good order and fighting for another two days less than a week later.
But comparisons do not have effective measures for valour and none is intended. It's just a question of scale

 

[Johnboy]

But comparisons do not have effective measures for valour and none is intended. It's just a question of scale

Hi,
Well, I cannot possibly disagree with your comments re. the scale of previous battles. Napoleon was at the peak of both his generalship and administrative capabilities during these times. I'm sure you agree his biggest mistake was wasting one of the most formidable armies in the world in Russia. However he still worked wonders in 1813-14 with what he could muster. But as you remarked the "writing was on the wall"
and go he must.
Now, the point I have been trying to make is not of scale but of the drama of the 100 days which still draws history buffs and model makers alike. The reason from my point of view is that it had everything that drama needs: a thrilling escape, a dramatic and eventfull march to Paris , amazing logistical wizardry almost succeeding in "divide and conquer" strategy. The epic final defeat of which I have previously mentioned and Napoleons hair raising escape from the battlefield, and eventual surrender to a lowly Royal Navy captain.
There is no doubt if it had not been at Waterloo it would have been somewhere else once the larger allied armies arrived on the scene. It was an incredible gamble that failed.
I suppose it is purely a matter of "what sells" as the guideline for TS manufacturers ,and Waterloo seems to be the most popular Napoleonic period.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Hi,
Well, I cannot possibly disagree with your comments re. the scale of previous battles. Napoleon was at the peak of both his generalship and administrative capabilities during these times. I'm sure you agree his biggest mistake was wasting one of the most formidable armies in the world in Russia. However he still worked wonders in 1813-14 with what he could muster. But as you remarked the "writing was on the wall"
and go he must.
Now, the point I have been trying to make is not of scale but of the drama of the 100 days which still draws history buffs and model makers alike. The reason from my point of view is that it had everything that drama needs: a thrilling escape, a dramatic and eventfull march to Paris , amazing logistical wizardry almost succeeding in "divide and conquer" strategy. The epic final defeat of which I have previously mentioned and Napoleons hair raising escape from the battlefield, and eventual surrender to a lowly Royal Navy captain.
There is no doubt if it had not been at Waterloo it would have been somewhere else once the larger allied armies arrived on the scene. It was an incredible gamble that failed.
I suppose it is purely a matter of "what sells" as the guideline for TS manufacturers ,and Waterloo seems to be the most popular Napoleonic period.

Hi,
The Bonapartes were nothing if not dramatic - I doubt there was a mundane moment in that family history. But I think his litany of errors started with Aspern-Essling, his first defeat as commander, and ego ruled the day ongoing after Wagram. He did say though, if anyone denigrated the Austrian fighting ability: "You were not at Wagram then". But he underestimated them in that contest and later overestimated the value of his alliance by marriage. Metternich saw right through the mock army of Marie Louises - children in uniform. The writing on the wall? He wrote and broke most of the rules, and he had no right to cast the die with the lives of so many Frenchmen - this is what the populace could not forgive and why he failed to unite France. He failed to act as a statesman when it really mattered.
Logistical wizardry? I cannot get past the strategy for beating the Danube at Wagram. And the hiding of the crossing point - cunning at its best. And still it almost failed. As a feat of engineering, it is hard to beat. Glory to the Pontoneers, a prelude to their later sacrifice at the Berezina. The artillery of both sides - amazing feats of arms. With so many soldiers engaged, the variety of uniforms is enormous. On a field so large, tales of heroism for individuals and units are legion. The geography and the terrain have a complex effect on the result, and offer a wide variety of diorama opportunities. The dramatic death of Lasalle almost at the close of the battle, and the orderly withdrawal of the Austrians after day 2 - it has the lot. I've always been fascinated by the pontoon bridges - so many to get the numbers of troops across in the shortest time.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

The death of Lasalle leaves some room for skepticism about the legend. It is said that the light cavalry general, unused to the slow pace of cuirassiers, got ahead of the charge and one of Duka's grenadiers took aim and shot him in the head. The waste, the pathos, the drama, all are evident in the story, and we can certainly appreciate these sentiments, but it is somewhat fanciful to imagine a musket being aimed so accurately as to hit a rapidly moving horseman in the head. Lasalle's bright uniform would have stood out ahead of the silvered mass behind and it would have made a useful target for a massed round from the grenadier unit, but the score on his head would have been sheer chance. Which grenadier shot him? We only have the name of the general.
The attempt to get at the real in history is not about detracting from the spirit of legends but rather about getting to grips with why things happened the way they did. If it was possible for a musket to be effectively used as described in that legend, then most of what happened on battlefields of the day makes no sense. It in no way, however, detracts from the loss of Lasalle. He died as he lived, charging at the head of men he commanded, and he would have regretted it not. Certainly he was spared the decline of the Empire in which he had flourished. His death like all deaths left a gap amongst the living, but his would not be filled. The fiasco of the cavalry charges at Waterloo is evidence of the regret Napoleon would suffer for such losses of leadership.