Need help: Paint is flaking off (1 Viewer)

[jazzeum]

I have spoken to Mike DeMarco about this issue many times and spoke to him again yesterday. Mike, for those who do not know him, has repaired many, many figures for many people on this Forum. Mike has also received references from many dealers who know his work. He also owns LeMans Toy Soldiers so he has painted many figures.

The flaking issue, in his opinion, relates solely from the failure to properly prime a figure, no other reason. He fixed a few Figarti figures for me that had this problem. Cabinets have nothing to do with the issue. If they had, all figures in that cabinet would have been affected, not just a few.

 

[jazzeum]

I do have several 100's of figures from K&C in my collection .
I only had the problem once : LAH047 with the red colour on the flag
99.99% of all my figures exposed in a display cabinet or in the original box are OK
Guy

I have never had this issue with K & C. I’m not dismissing others’ experiences, just stating my own.

 

[Warrior]

<><><><><>

And Thank you George Nye, the NON-SCIENCE guy.

Ya' wouldn't hurt him unless the guy stayed in the cabinet day in and day out himself (like the figure did) there would be no effect.

There have been many cases however (thankfully in the past) where carpets install into a home caused the owners a lot of medical issues. Reason .. the Urethane in the rug and matts. There have been many cases where blown-in insulation in home have caused issues. Many more examples can be cited.

Good news that most of the people don't put their collections in environments that can cause harm, still don't mean that a poor storage environment couldn't cause damage. ​

Yup, everyone's mileage may vary, ….. but that depends on the skill and knowledge of the driver.
Hopefully one day you might even get 10 miles per gallon!

--- LaRRy

If there were 200 figures in that cabinet from 5 different makers and they all had the same issue, you'd have a point Phineus J Whoopee.

But from what information the OP has presented, it's a handful of figures from the same maker.


It's a nice day today, my suggestion is you get out of the house, go for a walk and enjoy the sunshine.

A nice, LONG walk.

 

[Larry Allen]

If there were 200 figures in that cabinet from 5 different makers and they all had the same issue, you'd have a point Phineus J Whoopee.

But from what information the OP has presented, it's a handful of figures from the same maker.


It's a nice day today, my suggestion is you get out of the house, go for a walk and enjoy the sunshine.

A nice, LONG walk.

Yep, it is a beautiful day up here, a bit cold, but for Maine it is actually warmer than it should be.
So yep, I will enjoy the sun, the quiet of the sea shore. But it will only be a short walk, maybe a couple of hours.

No long walks are planned for a good while, like Trevose, Gettysburg, Schaumberg or Hackensack.

--- LaRRy

 

[ivanmoe]

The make and materials used in a cabinet construction or refinishing can absolutely contribute to damage. I have seen Toy Solders, Resin & Wood Models (ships, planes, etc); Military Collectables and other antiques suffer paint loss, pitting and decay due to the use of the paint removers, stains, varnish and urethane finishes applied to the cabinet. It isn't uncommon to see beautiful cabinets that have been refinished used to display wonderful collections. A short time later the vapors from lingering chemical products have wrought noticeable damage.

The newer composite materials, glass and such have no issues.

--- LaRRy

LaRRy, I don't think that finished curios present much of a vapor trap. The fact is that that they are not air-tight and have a degree of airflow built into them. Air comes in around the doors and exits via the light can at the top. If anything, I wish that the cases were tighter (to keep dust off of my models).

I experienced some of the flaking issues mentioned in this thread with a couple of AK figures. The paint loss was confined to the khaki and flesh colored areas. Beneath the paint was a coat of shiny primer. I touched up the areas with some model master enamels and the paint loss appeared to end. That was seven years ago. This makes no sense, I know, as I honestly didn't expect my little intervention would work. So it goes.

-Moe

 

[Warrior]

"

No long walks are planned for a good while, like Trevose, Gettysburg, Schaumberg or Hackensack."

You got that right...…………...I will say this, when it comes to gas, you are an expert......:salute::


​

 

[jazzeum]

Hackensack might not be the best place for a walk now, with NJ's first reported case.

 

[Larry Allen]

Hackensack might not be the best place for a walk now, with NJ's first reported case.

Wow ... now people have some decisions to make.

Hackensack was not really a concern, until that announcement. attendees being the artists, exhibitors and dealers, all coming from afar ..... like EUROPE and ASIA! {eek3}

Those planning to go should remember to bring a LOT of hand sanitizer.
I understand that the face masks do little if any good; at least according to the CDC.

--- LaRRy

 

[Larry Allen]

LaRRy, I don't think that finished curios present much of a vapor trap. The fact is that that they are not air-tight and have a degree of airflow built into them. Air comes in around the doors and exits via the light can at the top. If anything, I wish that the cases were tighter (to keep dust off of my models).

I experienced some of the flaking issues mentioned in this thread with a couple of AK figures. The paint loss was confined to the khaki and flesh colored areas. Beneath the paint was a coat of shiny primer. I touched up the areas with some model master enamels and the paint loss appeared to end. That was seven years ago. This makes no sense, I know, as I honestly didn't expect my little intervention would work. So it goes.

-Moe

Glad to hear of your "success" story. Is Model Master your preferred paints?

Small little chips of flakes are easy to fix, especially on "basic" color areas like BLACK boots, BROWN on the rifles, SILVER on swords and bayonets and such.

When it gets to larger areas and/or the color isn't one of the primary colors that is when it gets a bit difficult.
Then you call in the experts, like Jazzeum's friend who has helped at lot of folks on here. (Sorry but I forgot his name):redface2:

--- LaRRy

 

[Warrior]

Wow ... now people have some decisions to make.

Hackensack was not really a concern, until that announcement. attendees being the artists, exhibitors and dealers, all coming from afar ..... like EUROPE and ASIA! {eek3}

Those planning to go should remember to bring a LOT of hand sanitizer.
I understand that the face masks do little if any good; at least according to the CDC.

--- LaRRy

What is this in reference to?

Hackensack is where the East Coast Toy Soldier Show is held, it's in November.

Are you confusing The East Coast Toy Soldier Show with MFCA, which is held in PA in April?

There are exhibitors who come from Europe, not sure about Asia though.

So?

 

[theBaron]

... Beneath the paint was a coat of shiny primer...

Hey Moe! (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Are you sure that wasn't just the bare metal? Primer is usually dull/matte, often a shade of grey or white.

Prost!
Brad

 

[ivanmoe]

Hey Moe! (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Are you sure that wasn't just the bare metal? Primer is usually dull/matte, often a shade of grey or white.

Prost!
Brad

Absolutely positive, Brad. Certainly not what you'd expect to see in the way of primer, as paint isn't gonna adhere well to so smooth a surface. IIRC, it had a bit of a cream tint to it. Back then, I suspected that someone had used the wrong material for the primer coat. Prior to touch-up, I found that paint was coming off in patches where I touched the figure. Will post a pic below that indicates several of the areas where I applied the MM enamel. How/why the paint on the figs subsequently stabilized, I have no clue.



-Moe

 

[ivanmoe]

Is Model Master your preferred paints?

LaRRy, it's what I had on hand in the way of enamel. As I recall, it came in two flesh tones. I'm trying to switch to acrylics, as that's what everyone else seems to favor.

-Moe

 

[theBaron]

LaRRy, it's what I had on hand in the way of enamel. As I recall, it came in two flesh tones. I'm trying to switch to acrylics, as that's what everyone else seems to favor.

-Moe

Acrylics have two main advantages. They're fast-drying so you can finish a piece relatively quickly. And many are water-based, so they can be thinned with water (though many think that "acrylic" means "water-based" or "water-soluable", and it doesn't). But they're not necessarily better than enamels, or lacquers. It's really a matter of the modeler's preference.

But acrylics especially require a very good primer, to promote good adhesion, especially on styrene. Enamels and lacquers are hot enough that they bond to plastic, and some resin surfaces, without a primer, and could be applied without one. I still use a primer, anyway, and on metal, certainly.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Larry Allen]

Acrylics have two main advantages. They're fast-drying so you can finish a piece relatively quickly. And many are water-based, so they can be thinned with water (though many think that "acrylic" means "water-based" or "water-soluable", and it doesn't). But they're not necessarily better than enamels, or lacquers. It's really a matter of the modeler's preference.

But acrylics especially require a very good primer, to promote good adhesion, especially on styrene. Enamels and lacquers are hot enough that they bond to plastic, and some resin surfaces, without a primer, and could be applied without one. I still use a primer, anyway, and on metal, certainly.

Prost!
Brad

Many Thanks, Brad.
I hear a lot about the use of PRIMERS on this forum. And the misfortune on not using one. …:redface2:
I have built many Wood, Plastic and Resin models; mainly ship models.
Tamiya, Model Master and Revell paints work great and their "primer" has never given me any cause for grief.

So the question to all the master painters on here, if I am using an Acrylic paint on a metal Toy Soldier, what is the best PRIMER to use for those?

--- LaRRy​

 

[theBaron]

Many Thanks, Brad.
I hear a lot about the use of PRIMERS on this forum. And the misfortune on not using one. …:redface2:
I have built many Wood, Plastic and Resin models; mainly ship models.
Tamiya, Model Master and Revell paints work great and their "primer" has never given me any cause for grief.

So the question to all the master painters on here, if I am using an Acrylic paint on a metal Toy Soldier, what is the best PRIMER to use for those?

--- LaRRy​

Sure thing, Larry!

I use Tamiya's Fine Surface Primer, on metal, styrene, and resin. I also use Rustoleum, though, and I have occasionally used WalMart's house brand automotive primers. Rustoleum and WalMart's primers are a little more coarsely-grained than the Tamiya primer. The only issue I have with those two brands is that I have gotten bad rattle cans from both, that have clogged. I don't mean the nozzle clogged-the neck at the top of the can clogged, leaving half the paint stuck in the can. But all three cover well. Tamiya is good on scale models and on finer castings with more delicate detail, because it doesn't obscure the detail. But any primer will do that, if you put it on too thick.

One product I have not tried as a primer, but intend to, is Mr Surfacer. It's a lacquer-based liquid filler, but it can be used as a primer as well.

Those are my experiences. Hope that helps!

Prost!
Brad

 

[mephistomueller]

"

That's why I said what I said in my earlier post. That the tannic acid off-gassed by ​

unsealed

oak causes lead rot/lead disease, or problems like flaking paint, is supported only by apocryphal or anecdotal information. I know of no tests to verify the claim."

Right, nothing to verify it.

But apparently that's not going to stop people from claiming that is the issue.

If there were 50 figures in a sealed cabinet and ALL 50 had the same issue, then you could assume improperly sealed/poorly sealed/using the wrong sealer was to blame.

Still waiting for the OP to verify how they were stored/how many total figures in the cabinet had issues.



​

Sorry for the late reply. As you can see from the pictures I have stored many different figures and models, not only K&C, in closed cabinets made of jaw wood. No chemical treatment beyond sealing the raw wood. No explicit exposure to temperature beyond room temperature. The lights, of course, are not permanently switched on, not exceeding a couple of minutes a day. The figures that have been affected stood mosty in groups with other figures that did not show any sign of harm so far.

Again greetings from Berlin

Rainer

 

[Warrior]

Wow, that is a beautiful collection, thanks for sharing it with us, best of luck with the situation.

 

[mikemiller1955]

yea Rainer...

when you need a ladder to view your collection...
that is a nice collection!

 

[mephistomueller]

Tom,
Thank you for your pictures, they are worth a thousand words. As you can see it is not an isolated incident and at the cost of these precious figures it is inexcusable to have these problems. Obvious lack of QC by manufacturers (China/Hong Kong). It would be nice if companies would own it and replace problem figures with brand new corrected figures. That is how I feel when I find them in my collection.

Howard[/QUOTE

Actually Howard, I beg to differ, these are ‘isolated incidents’.

Consider this simple fact...Over the years K&C alone has produced literally hundreds of thousands of figures, probably millions. The number of ‘paint-flaking’ incidents is, I believe, relatively rare considering the huge numbers involved, thank goodness.
Annoying most certainly... but rare never the less.

Many other collectors, right here on this thread, have provided ample evidence of other factors, such as ‘environmental’ which can also have an adverse effect on figures. Many of the examples I have seen personally have been the result of some kind of ‘chemical reaction’ caused by the conditions figures in which figures have been stored in...or even displayed in...or have been handled.

Of course, human error and/or carelessness either at the factory...or at any other single point all the way down the supply and collector chain can also cause problems and that is deeply regrettable.

When, and if, I believe K&C is responsible, then we do our best to help or replace such damages.

However to state that ‘obvious lack of QC by manufacturers in China/Hong Kong’ is both wrong and ignores the evidence of actual numbers and the evidence and experience of other collectors.

Best wishes,
Andy.

Andy,

I have read your remarks/statement (unfortunately I have not met you personally, even though I have already been to your shop in Hong Kong to buy some airplanes). Again, I am trying to point out, that I have stored my figures properly (hopefully backed by the photos of my cabinets I have attached recently to this thread) and the figures that have been affected did not stand in a group or even in the same cabinet. What would you advise to do? At the moment five figures (the three already shown plus the other of the Jagdpanther tank crew and one Luftwaffe ground crew figure) are flaking off and I am not perfectly sure that I will manage to repaint them in a way that they look (and will be afterward be of the same value) like the originals.

I would appreciate very much to hearing from you.

Rainer