New 25 Pounder QF Field Gun (2 Viewers)

[King & Country]

Hi Guy,

Muchos Gracias to one and all for the additional info.

Andy C.​

 

[The Military Workshop]

As stated earlier from information supplied the gun is a little more inaccurate as depicted by K&C. The gun seems to be on the wrong carriage. Early 25 pdr guns were on the 18pdr gun carriage with split trails and, the firing wheel was carried on top of the limber/ammo cart and not as seen here under the trail.

In 43 all 25 pdr were fitted with a double muzzle break so, the gun had increased range and, a higher velocity to be more effective against AFV's.

So, with no muzzle break it means the gun is inaccurate for the NW theatre of operations. Without a muzzle break its identified as a pre 43 gun and therefore would work for North Africa and or Pacific theatre.

I initially thought this gun was for FOB which, I think would have been more acceptable I don't know a lot about the gun but, from what has been said these are bigger errors than the ranking system. At least we all know now
Mitch

Mitch,
All very interesting and I am sure people appreciate you "outsourcing" to get an opinion. I am just
wondering did your consultant have anything postive to say or perhaps you were not seeking any
positives when you approached him.

I have absolutely no knowledge of 25 pound guns but I think it safe to say that to meet the standards
of you and your adviser there would have to be a few "variations" to satisfy the points raised depending
upon when (pre 43 or after, different muzzles, MK 1-IV (I looked that up) etc) or how deployed (ie. , with and without firing wheel, 18 pound or 25 pound gun carriage etc). As we can see K&C plans to do more
than one version of this.

Take the firing wheel (I presume that is the round base under the gun). It looks like it is fixed under the gun
(as I think the first one was). That being the case it clearly can not also be on top of
the limber if somebody chooses to display it being towed. So yes your consultant may be right but I
suspect he is looking at this from a different perspective and not from the convenience of
toy soldier collectors who will have options to vary their displays. Now if K&C put a firing wheel on top
of the limber that would not be correct if it was displayed next to the firing gun which also has one.
As it is now the firing wheel is more appropriate for displaying in a firing display with vehicle and
limber parked nearby. I suspect most will display it that way. Those who choose to display in the towing
manner will now know it is not quite correct. However when they change their display to a firing
situation at least they know their crew has more chance to properly fire their gun.

If there was no limber option then the issue of no firing wheel on top of it would simply not arise. Then
of course people would ask where is the limber ?

Seems to be a no win situation for K&C from the point of view of trying to satisy in depth analysis.

As for the muzzle break factor I suspect it is far more of an issue with you than it will be with other collectors who buy it.

Please note I am not trying to impede your right to comment but merely indicating how difficult it is
with this item to satisfy all the variables.

Brett

 

[TomB]

Guys, just loving this thread. People are chatting, raising questions and points, these are being answered and everyone is putting in there opinion. Its all being done without any BS or shouting down of anyone, its threads like this that make this forum so enjoyable.

I very much enjoyed pics guys have been putting up so thought I'd add some more from the IWM archives;

© IWM (E 9535)
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205203703

© IWM (E 15019)
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=121315

A 25-pdr field gun under camouflage netting in the Western Desert, 29 July 1942.

© IWM (E 9119)
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205203696
A 25-pdr field gun and 'Quad' artillery tractor in the Western Desert, 8 March 1942.

Informative photos Rob......the pic I have posted illustrate Obee''s point of the need to protect the barrel... that barrel could easily hit the bump when the gun reach's the point where the bump joins the road......just a observation.....TomB

 

[The Military Workshop]

Tom B,
Another good point.

If being towed would have a cover over the barrel. However if did not remove cover when firing
(displaying) then would presumably not be so good when the round goes out the end. Would not want
a collector telling me I had to take off barrel cover on a gun in my shop display.

This 25 lb gun rivett counting is fun because Andy simply cant win whatever he does (unless of course
he does not offer Quad and limber options). It is so easy ! Oops I am a dealer what am I saying !!!

Brett

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Other than Obee who does know, This whole thread has turned into the usual utter silliness and nonsense with people who don't know what they are talking about on a 25 pdr making up ridiculous examples. Seems to have really gone off the rails after Rob thanked everyone for being polite on his Forum. Then the dealers and their pack jumped in to ridicule anyone with a criticism like a witch hunt.

The point being, there is nothing wrong with the K&C 25 pdr. The Visible features on the gun tell what theatres of operation and time periods the gun was used in and which theatres of operation and time periods the gun was NOT used in - nothing more. The model as it is shown is a Mk II on a 25 pdr carriage which carries the firing base under the box trail. As is, and without a muzzle brake, it represents a 25 pdr in use in (1) England in 1941-1942. Paint it in Desert colours and it serves in (2) North Afrika and early Italy. Paint it in jungle camo and it was used in (3) the Pacific by Australia.

Add a muzzle brake to the barrel and a counterweight to the carriage and it served in (1) Italy, (2) Normandy and (3) NW Europe From 1943 on.

If the original gun without a muzzle brake and installed on an 18 pdr carriage, it served in Europe in 1940.

Terry




It's good that K&C is fixing the ranks of the figures and allowing collectors to buy what pieces they want.

 

[Obee]

In 43 all 25 pdr were fitted with a double muzzle break so, the gun had increased range and, a higher velocity to be more effective against AFV's.

Without a muzzle break its identified as a pre 43 gun and therefore would work for North Africa and or Pacific theatre.

Mitch

Mitch,

The muzzle break was added as a result the introduction of 'Charge Super', (previously only 3 charges available) and so something was needed to reduce the recoil, and the wear and tear on the recuperator system.

By dispersing the gasses laterally the recoil was reduced.

Accuracy was NOT the factor, but Super Charge did increase the range of the gun.

Yes, if there is no muzzle break, the gun is pre-43 in Europe, or one deployed in the Far East. Aussies didn't use it until 1946.

The platform (firing wheel) could be carried on the limber when not needed for firing, as it was quicker to bring into action without using the platform.

The good thing about the platform was that the Gun Sgt could lift the trail with the handspike, and, when the No2 released the hand break, he could move the line of the gun easily onto a new bearing or target, and keep the gun on its marker.

I hope all this helps, but please don’t hesitate to PM if you have any other questions about this iconic gun of WW2 ?

Cheers,

John

 

[uksubs]

Other than Obee who does know, This whole thread has turned into the usual utter silliness and nonsense with people who don't know what they are talking about on a 25 pdr making up ridiculous examples. Seems to have really gone off the rails after Rob thanked everyone for being polite on his Forum. Then the dealers and their pack jumped in to ridicule anyone with a criticism like a witch hunt.

The point being, there is nothing wrong with the K&C 25 pdr. The Visible features on the gun tell what theatres of operation and time periods the gun was used in and which theatres of operation and time periods the gun was NOT used in - nothing more. The model as it is shown is a Mk II on a 25 pdr carriage which carries the firing base under the box trail. As is, and without a muzzle brake, it represents a 25 pdr in use in (1) England in 1941-1942. Paint it in Desert colours and it serves in (2) North Afrika and early Italy. Paint it in jungle camo and it was used in (3) the Pacific by Australia.

Add a muzzle brake to the barrel and a counterweight to the carriage and it served in (1) Italy, (2) Normandy and (3) NW Europe From 1943 on.

If the original gun without a muzzle brake and installed on an 18 pdr carriage, it served in Europe in 1940.

Terry




It's good that K&C is fixing the ranks of the figures and allowing collectors to buy what pieces they want.

Good post Terry ! Just checked and Mickey Mouse camo was only used from May 1942 . Would be nice if K&C made a late war ETO version don't you think when they already made a desert version but that Andy choice

 

[Jack]

The model as it is shown is a Mk II on a 25 pdr carriage which carries the firing base under the box trail. As is, and without a muzzle brake, it represents a 25 pdr in use in (1) England in 1941-1942. Paint it in Desert colours and it serves in (2) North Afrika and early Italy. Paint it in jungle camo and it was used in (3) the Pacific by Australia.

Terry




Typical - we end up using the old version after every one else has upgraded!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The model as it is shown is a Mk II on a 25 pdr carriage which carries the firing base under the box trail. As is, and without a muzzle brake, it represents a 25 pdr in use in (1) England in 1941-1942. Paint it in Desert colours and it serves in (2) North Afrika and early Italy. Paint it in jungle camo and it was used in (3) the Pacific by Australia.

Terry




Typical - we end up using the old version after every one else has upgraded!

Oh quit whining Jack. The Kiwis were sent home and issued only rocks to throw {eek3}^&grin

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Good post Terry ! Just checked and Mickey Mouse camo was only used from May 1942 . Would be nice if K&C made a late war ETO version don't you think when they already made a desert version but that Andy choice

Maybe they will. All that's needed is muzzle brake and counterweight. The Mickey Mouse camo could be spruced up - normal MM Camo had all upward facing surfaces painted black (roof, bonnet, fenders)

Terry

 

[Mitch]

Terry...

Usual K&C models for MM camo have score marks in the design to aid the painters so, If this plain green comes first I would not expect a MM unless the way they paint is changed.

If the release stays as it is as I said in the first or second post it would probably come in FOB and, then as expected the repaint will be the EA series.
Mitch

Maybe they will. All that's needed is muzzle brake and counterweight. The Mickey Mouse camo could be spruced up - normal MM Camo had all upward facing surfaces painted black (roof, bonnet, fenders)

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry...

Usual K&C models for MM camo have score marks in the design to aid the painters so, If this plain green comes first I would not expect a MM unless the way they paint is changed.

If the release stays as it is as I said in the first or second post it would probably come in FOB and, then as expected the repaint will be the EA series.
Mitch

I'm not sure of your point? The 25 pdr as in the model would likely have had MM Camo. The gun would not be FoB as they were all on 18 pdr carriages in 1940 - none were on 25 pdr carriages like the model is.

Terry

 

[Mitch]

Terry...

Just mentioning that where the model is and what has been said it looks unlikely that it will be revised in terms of what has been said about Muzzle and other issues. So, it will have to stay as is and be adapted for those who know or care and, others who don't will use it for every other area they choose. The well used artistic license is what comes to mind.

My point about MM was in terms of how its done in terms of getting the pattern on models by K&C and has no historical bearing on how it was deployed in the field.
Mitch

I'm not sure of your point? The 25 pdr as in the model would likely have had MM Camo. The gun would not be FoB as they were all on 18 pdr carriages in 1940 - none were on 25 pdr carriages like the model is.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry...

Just mentioning that where the model is and what has been said it looks unlikely that it will be revised in terms of what has been said about Muzzle and other issues. So, it will have to stay as is and be adapted for those who know or care and, others who don't will use it for every other area they choose. The well used artistic license is what comes to mind.

My point about MM was in terms of how its done in terms of getting the pattern on models by K&C and has no historical bearing on how it was deployed in the field.
Mitch

I don't see any artistic license here. It is not reasonable to expect a single model to do for every time period and every theatre of WWII. Nor is it financial to make a different model for every period and every theatre of WWII.That doesn't work for tanks and aircraft and not for artillery either. The 25 pdr is an even more difficult item to model as the periods when each version was in use are so clear cut with almost no overlap.

Terry

 

[jazzeum]

Moreover, Andy, as he pointed out, did not specify the gun's theater of operations.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Moreover, Andy, as he pointed out, did not specify the gun's theater of operations.

He did not specify or use any creative license. The version and paint job tie it to England in 1941 - 1942. A different camo puts the same model gun in North Afrika 1941 - 1943 and in the Pacific after 1941 to the end of the war. A different carriage would be needed to put the gun in FoB 1940. A muzzle brake would be needed to put the gun in Italy, Normandy or NW Europe. Paint jobs would be different too.

So one gun model works for 3 theatres. - England, North Afrika and the Pacific.

Terry

 

[Mitch]

Terry...

The use of artistic licence was not aimed at K&C. with the detail added to the thread and, what has been discussed there are restrictions on where it can be used if your into making things correct in displays etc. As I said this was not my info and, I was as said under the impression when this comes out it would be a FOB release simple as that really. The detail info is out for those interested and, as has been pointed out its up to individuals what they do with it
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry...

The use of artistic licence was not aimed at K&C. with the detail added to the thread and, what has been discussed there are restrictions on where it can be used if your into making things correct in displays etc. As I said this was not my info and, I was as said under the impression when this comes out it would be a FOB release simple as that really. The detail info is out for those interested and, as has been pointed out its up to individuals what they do with it
Mitch

Agreed - it really is up to individuals to do with as they please. Aside from a desert version, I wouldn't expect a 25 pdr with a muzzle brake any time soon. And keep in mind the model in the photos looks very well done.

Terry

 

[Rob]

As it sounds like there will be Brit and Aussie versions of this I wonder if it will be a 250 release or a normal unlimited run??

Next month's Dispatch might be very interesting^&cool