new Prochorowka book (1 Viewer)

[lancer]

RZM Publishers has just announced a new book titled "Blood, Steel, and Myth: The II SS Panzer-Korps and the road to Prochorowka, July 1943" written by George Nipe. It is due November 1 at a price of $75.00. Will have 496 pags and 312 b/w photos. Sounds like a must-have for the Eastern Front and Kursk crowd. It is for me, anyway:wink2: -- Al

 

[Mitch]

Seems like many books are now being released to cancel the Myth about Kursk and re-writing the set-in stone accounts. The recent Zamulin book which, IMO was poor was supposed to lay the myth's to rest and, here is another. The after action reports and intelligence documents are out and have been narrated before. I have seen some negative reports about this release and although I will buy it as the illustrations and pictures are supposed to be superb. I wonder what else can be written that can dispel the already defunct myths surrounding this battle??
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Seems like many books are now being released to cancel the Myth about Kursk and re-writing the set-in stone accounts. The recent Zamulin book which, IMO was poor was supposed to lay the myth's to rest and, here is another. The after action reports and intelligence documents are out and have been narrated before. I have seen some negative reports about this release and although I will buy it as the illustrations and pictures are supposed to be superb. I wonder what else can be written that can dispel the already defunct myths surrounding this battle??
Mitch

Hi Mitch. What negatives have you heard/read about this new book? I have two of Nipe's other books and have been impressed by them. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

I have seen a couple of reviews floating around not really impressed with it. Though I do take those with a pinch of salt. I spoke with a friend who is a book dealer and he has heard a lot about it and just seemed unimpressed with it and, he is really up on his war.

I think the myths have been so entrenched in academic circles for many years that now, its almost gone to the other extreme with a number of books out and coming that are trying to almost underplay the battle as much as those previous overplayed its size and significance.

I just hope this is not another one of those but, as I say, the pics are supposed to be worth it alone.
Mitch

Hi Mitch. What negatives have you heard/read about this new book? I have two of Nipe's other books and have been impressed by them. -- Al

 

[lancer]

I have seen a couple of reviews floating around not really impressed with it. Though I do take those with a pinch of salt. I spoke with a friend who is a book dealer and he has heard a lot about it and just seemed unimpressed with it and, he is really up on his war.

I think the myths have been so entrenched in academic circles for many years that now, its almost gone to the other extreme with a number of books out and coming that are trying to almost underplay the battle as much as those previous overplayed its size and significance.

I just hope this is not another one of those but, as I say, the pics are supposed to be worth it alone.
Mitch

Thanks, Mitch. I will probably enjoy the book as my main interest involving Kursk is the southern front and in particular, the II SS Panzer-Corps. I'm sure it will have new info I am unaware of. -- Al

 

[fmethorst]

I recently finished "Operation Zitadelle, July 1943, The Decisive Battle of World War" by Franz Kurowski. It is a description from the German perspective and can be a tad dry in parts with its references to hill numbers and obscure village names. That said I found it an interesting read since it included the very important Soviet counter offensive "Operation Kutuzov" and descriptions of the air battle.

 

[Mitch]

Frank...

I quite enjoyed that book. I do like all those small details but, I like trawling through the archives for what AFV's were damaged in what little hamlet a thousand miles from nowhere or, how many casualties from a local action were sustained etc. I enjoy reading after action reports and similar. What many consider dry material is often the greatest source of information
Mitch

I recently finished "Operation Zitadelle, July 1943, The Decisive Battle of World War" by Franz Kurowski. It is a description from the German perspective and can be a tad dry in parts with its references to hill numbers and obscure village names. That said I found it an interesting read since it included the very important Soviet counter offensive "Operation Kutuzov" and descriptions of the air battle.

 

[Mitch]

Another interesting book is Zitadelle by Mark Healy. Written from the german perspective also and reassesing the belief that it was a crushing defeat
Mitch

 

[fmethorst]

Frank...

I quite enjoyed that book. I do like all those small details but, I like trawling through the archives for what AFV's were damaged in what little hamlet a thousand miles from nowhere or, how many casualties from a local action were sustained etc. I enjoy reading after action reports and similar. What many consider dry material is often the greatest source of information
Mitch

I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong. I just wanted to warn would be readers that this isn't your standard high level description of the battle. I read a lot of unit histories and find them quite fascinating.

Another interesting book is Zitadelle by Mark Healy. Written from the german perspective also and reassesing the belief that it was a crushing defeat
Mitch

A crushing defeat wouold have been an encirclement and destruction of Army group center's forces in the Orel salient (the forces in the northern pincer) which was the unrealized Soviet intent.

 

[J.Sparrow]

While on the subject of the Battle of Kursk, any thoughts on either vol. 1 or 2 of Operation Citadel? Have the op to purchase Vol. #2. Curious if it's worth buying due to price.

 

[lancer]

While on the subject of the Battle of Kursk, any thoughts on either vol. 1 or 2 of Operation Citadel? Have the op to purchase Vol. #2. Curious if it's worth buying due to price.

Someone else recently asked this. The general concensus is that they are excellent books with excellent photos. What you have to be aware of is that Vol.1, the volume about the southern side of the operation (the SS units and Prochorowka) is Out of Print and very hard to find and expensive to buy, much more so than the In Print Vol.2 (the North side of the bulge). -- Al

 

[Blowtorch]

Seems like many books are now being released to cancel the Myth about Kursk and re-writing the set-in stone accounts.

I never really paid much attention to Kursk. What are the myths & what does demolishing them accomplish? Does it create a new importance to some other event?

 

[lancer]

This book is now available from RZM. -- Al

 

[ExRanger]

Amazon carries this book now for about $48.00 if anyone is interested.

 

[lancer]

Amazon carries this book now for about $48.00 if anyone is interested.

Now that is useful info.{bravo}} -- Al

 

[lancer]

Have this dandy on the way. Thanks to ExRanger for the Amazon idea as I would have ordered at full price somewhwere, and thanks to my daughters Amazon account that doesn't charge S/H. Now this is a great deal. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

Thats a good price for it. I am sure you will enjoy it. Look forward to chatting about what you think of it when you have had chance to read it
Mitch

Have this dandy on the way. Thanks to ExRanger for the Amazon idea as I would have ordered at full price somewhwere, and thanks to my daughters Amazon account that doesn't charge S/H. Now this is a great deal. -- Al

 

[lancer]

This book showed up today and after my initial scan, I am impressed with the production values. It is a large book with a generous amount of illustrations and good maps. Wish there were more maps, but the ones provided give a good impression of unit positions around Prochorowka. Haven't had a chance to get into the meat of the writing yet, but I have cheated and read the chapters regarding the myths, losses, and conclusions. Nipe is critical of earlier works (just about everyone who touched on the battle, pre-mid 2000's) for not going to the German sources and for taking Russian reports, records, and histories at face value. The crux is, if you believe that the three SS divisions and the 5th Guards Tank Army destroyed each other in a furious, mutual tank charge on July 12, 1943, you are going to be disappointed. The 5th Guards Tank Army was wrecked alright, but it was done largely by the Leibstandarte, with Das Reich and the less than 130 tanks they had on hand on the 12th. In fact, the two SS divisions only had 5 Tigers between them (4 from 1stSS, 1 from 2ndSS), so the Russsian reports of dozens of destroyed German Tigers and hundreds of other German tanks destroyed, is bunk. German losses were greatly/deliberately over reported by Russian commanders so that Stalin could be given justification for the enourmous Russian losses. German panzer losses for the epic battle of the 12th only totaled 62 for all three SS divisions. Digging through this large volume to read all this research is going to be fun. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

Al.....

You are right about the myths being dispelled but, a few have done this before but, it is catagorically rebutted here. The image of thousands of tanks sweeping across hot russian plains has made many a historian money from literature but, as you say, is bunk.

Its a good book and, took me a couple of reads to realise it. I went into it thinking it may just be another book on the battle and not really giving anything but, its much more.
Mitch

This book showed up today and after my initial scan, I am impressed with the production values. It is a large book with a generous amount of illustrations and good maps. Wish there were more maps, but the ones provided give a good impression of unit positions around Prochorowka. Haven't had a chance to get into the meat of the writing yet, but I have cheated and read the chapters regarding the myths, losses, and conclusions. Nipe is critical of earlier works (just about everyone who touched on the battle, pre-mid 2000's) for not going to the German sources and for taking Russian reports, records, and histories at face value. The crux is, if you believe that the three SS divisions and the 5th Guards Tank Army destroyed each other in a furious, mutual tank charge on July 12, 1943, you are going to be disappointed. The 5th Guards Tank Army was wrecked alright, but it was done largely by the Leibstandarte, with Das Reich and the less than 130 tanks they had on hand on the 12th. In fact, the two SS divisions only had 5 Tigers between them (4 from 1stSS, 1 from 2ndSS), so the Russsian reports of dozens of destroyed German Tigers and hundreds of other German tanks destroyed, is bunk. German losses were greatly/deliberately over reported by Russian commanders so that Stalin could be given justification for the enourmous Russian losses. German panzer losses for the epic battle of the 12th only totaled 62 for all three SS divisions. Digging through this large volume to read all this research is going to be fun. -- Al

 

[lancer]

Al.....

You are right about the myths being dispelled but, a few have done this before but, it is catagorically rebutted here. The image of thousands of tanks sweeping across hot russian plains has made many a historian money from literature but, as you say, is bunk.

Its a good book and, took me a couple of reads to realise it. I went into it thinking it may just be another book on the battle and not really giving anything but, its much more.
Mitch

It's odd how much of the previous writings matched up with on another. Facts and figures repeated from one source to the next and never being questioned until relatively recently. Nipe takes everyone to task, Carell, Erickson, Seaton, and of course, Rotmistrov's account. I also like the criticism leveled at Martin Caidin's "The Tigers Are Burning", which I found to be an odd and horrible book from the first time I read it. Caidin is an excellent aviation writer, and should have stuck to that. Nipe labels Caidin's book as fiction. Even Glantz came in for some criticism. I am enjoying the book immensely, so far. This appears to be THE book on the subject that I have been waiting for. -- Al