New Releases: Horch & Tiger (1 Viewer)

As for the keeping of trade secrets, Lionel Trains and Mikes Train House just settled on a stolen trade secrets case ,where the mfg. was charged with giving stolen MTH engine plans to Lionel. Both companies used the same mfg. The case has taken some 8 years and several million dollars in legal fees to resolve..It adversly divided the train collecting community into pro Lionel and pro MTH camps. It has not been a pretty sight for the train hobby community...So the idea of secrets being traded in China, is more the norm, than the exception...I do find it strange, that with all the great mfg. of soldiers out there, that we cannot on a regular basis, get different stuff...Like most, I have multiple Tigers and Panthers ad nauseum...There are so many vehicles out there ,that have not been explored...Michael
 
Rob said:
Can you imagine what it must be like to constantly read a stream of criticism and abuse,can't speak for Andy but i would get very tired of it and probably not bother with the forum.And whatever your position is,Andy is the head of probably the best and most popular Toy soldier company in the world,it would be a great shame if it drove him away from here.
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Hi guys,

Let’s not try to divert the discussion from the real issue at hand here, which is not about respect for Andy, but respect for intellectual property. Now no one has the rights to WW2 but the timing here is very fishy. If what he says is true, can you imagine what it must be like for Brian to have his ideas stolen by a competitor? How come no one ever defends the smaller manufacturers? Don’t they deserve our respect and support? They deserve mine.

We may never know the full truth behind this, but Brian has made a serious allegation here and since he has never been disrespectful to me I am inclined to think he is an honourable person and therefore I take his word for it. Maybe I am naïve for doing so, but if what he says is true, it concerns me greatly, because I don’t want to see the same phenomenon begin to take over this hobby that has harmed the 1/6 hobby, as both Rob and Nasir can attest. Namely, the big dog aggressively copying the smaller company’s products, not because their ideas are necessarily any better, but as a deliberate and consistent attempt to undermine their sales and keep them out of the industry.

Debrito, the best thing for lowering the prices in this hobby is competition. And the best way to ensure competition is to support the smaller manufacturers so that the big dog has smaller ones nipping at his heels. If we all follow the idea of “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it and shut up”, and stay silent and let the big companies freely undercut the new ones without voicing displeasure about their questionable business practices, then you will see this hobby become exactly like the 1/6 one three years ago: a few large companies consistently produced exactly the same products month after month until all but one eventually went belly up due to attrition, and in the meantime we the consumers were left with a far less diverse and interesting selection of products from which to choose.

I love this hobby and don’t want to see the same thing happen here.
 
maddadicus said:
Like most, I have multiple Tigers and Panthers ad nauseum...There are so many vehicles out there ,that have not been explored...Michael
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I concur. People are throwing around "trade secrets" a little loosely here in my opinion (between here and KC thread). To me, a trade secret is something that enhances the delivery of the product to market, invention of a new material or some other intangible asset or likewise. I don't know (and I will admit I may be ignorant of all the facts) if beating such and such to the market with a Horch is an infringement on Trade Secrets. Let's face it, a lot of the KC fans like to speculate what new WW2 vehicles, troops, etc will be out there. There is a collective intelligence on this forum, coupled with a defined universe of WW2 vehicles (they weren't fighting with Mother Males, Abrams, etc) that we can reasonably speculate and actually hit the mark as to what the new releases are going to be- it really doesn't take a rocket scientist.
 
Currahee Chris said:
I concur. People are throwing around "trade secrets" a little loosely here in my opinion (between here and KC thread). To me, a trade secret is something that enhances the delivery of the product to market, invention of a new material or some other intangible asset or likewise. I don't know (and I will admit I may be ignorant of all the facts) if beating such and such to the market with a Horch is an infringement on Trade Secrets. Let's face it, a lot of the KC fans like to speculate what new WW2 vehicles, troops, etc will be out there. There is a collective intelligence on this forum, coupled with a defined universe of WW2 vehicles (they weren't fighting with Mother Males, Abrams, etc) that we can reasonably speculate and actually hit the mark as to what the new releases are going to be- it really doesn't take a rocket scientist.
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Gotta go with Chris on this one. I mean a Tiger and an SS command car are not really unusual off the wall type subjects for a company doing WWII. I alos wish we could get some British armor.
 
Canadian Samurai said:
Hi guys,

Let’s not try to divert the discussion from the real issue at hand here, which is not about respect for Andy, but respect for intellectual property. Now no one has the rights to WW2 but the timing here is very fishy. If what he says is true, can you imagine what it must be like for Brian to have his ideas stolen by a competitor? How come no one ever defends the smaller manufacturers? Don’t they deserve our respect and support? They deserve mine.

We may never know the full truth behind this, but Brian has made a serious allegation here and since he has never been disrespectful to me I am inclined to think he is an honourable person and therefore I take his word for it. Maybe I am naïve for doing so, but if what he says is true, it concerns me greatly, because I don’t want to see the same phenomenon begin to take over this hobby that has harmed the 1/6 hobby, as both Rob and Nasir can attest. Namely, the big dog aggressively copying the smaller company’s products, not because their ideas are necessarily any better, but as a deliberate and consistent attempt to undermine their sales and keep them out of the industry.

Debrito, the best thing for lowering the prices in this hobby is competition. And the best way to ensure competition is to support the smaller manufacturers so that the big dog has smaller ones nipping at his heels. If we all follow the idea of “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it and shut up”, and stay silent and let the big companies freely undercut the new ones without voicing displeasure about their questionable business practices, then you will see this hobby become exactly like the 1/6 one three years ago: a few large companies consistently produced exactly the same products month after month until all but one eventually went belly up due to attrition, and in the meantime we the consumers were left with a far less diverse and interesting selection of products from which to choose.

I love this hobby and don’t want to see the same thing happen here.
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Hi CS,

Thanks for your post good to hear your view.Can i just say speaking for myself i would never tell anyone 'If you don't like it don't buy and shut up'!.I wouldn't dream of talking like that to anyone on here,i have to much respect for the many experts on the forum.We all have our different viewpoints and positions and its good to hear them.I understand what you are saying about Brian.I have had the same experience with Andy,he's always been friendly polite and happy to answer my questions.(and as you can imagine i ask him a lot!)I think its still so unusual to be able to talk to the man at the top of your favourite company, i was lucky if i got an answer from a receptionist at Dragon Models!.:rolleyes:

Rob

Rob
 
Canadian Samurai,

I agree with you with your point that we, the consumers should have a voice, and if necessary, using collective economic (purchasing boycott) power, to ensure ALL companies act fairly and abode by the law. The failure of the 1/6 community to unite and act, has caused the decay of that hobby.

If a company (doesnt matter the goliath or the david) acts unfairly, we have to act impartially.

Brian made a serious allegation, one which if unproven, could be countered with a defamation charge. Brian's CS is smaller, compared to KC, and it is not to his interest if he copied K&C. Being smaller, he have to come up with something fresh, to ensure sales & market share.

Andy's KC, the giant, has been around since the big bang, and i do not think that he would even consider stooping this low. At the very least, it will hurt his pride if he does this, and signals that KC is losing their grip.

I'm right in the middle on this one,and as currently there is no concrete proof, gives KC the benefit of the doubt.

As for the products, i will look at both companies' latest offering, and judge Perhaps it was just coincidence.

but from now on, i will vigilantly keep watch, and if this same "release by different companies happen again", then we'll know its not a mere coincidence.

Sincerely,

Nasir Kasmani.
 
Has anyone seen K&C's Horch and Tiger. Is it even a SdKfz 181 Tiger. :confused:
 
Trade secrets vary from industry to industry. What would be a trade secret in the industry I work in (e.g., new product to cure a new disease or delivery method of a product) would be different than the toy soldier industry where, unless I'm mistaken, nothing new can really be invented other than improved methods in making figures, etc. For instance, when K & C first started using polystone, had there been other competitors at the time, K & C may have viewed the way it converted polystone into a finished product a trade secret.

In this case, because a vehicle that was used in a war like the Horch is an established fact, that, in and of itself, is not a trade secret. However, the timing of releases can be because the first one to market with a product will usually reap the rewards. Without naming names, back in the 80s there were two companies working on the same analgesic and both had been approved to market the product to the public. The key is who would be first. Company A was the first to market the product and the product has been a roaring success ever since. Company B was a few weeks tardy, never did well with it and their product, although no different than the one marketed by Company A, has been divested a couple of times. So first to market is important.

As I said earlier today, the alleged theft of a trade secret should not be aired in public but discussed privately. It's bad enough when we argue but I think manufacturers should discuss this among themselves.
 
jazzeum said:
Trade secrets vary from industry to industry. What would be a trade secret in the industry I work in (e.g., new product to cure a new disease or delivery method of a product) would be different than the toy soldier industry where, unless I'm mistaken, nothing new can really be invented other than improved methods in making figures, etc. For instance, when K & C first started using polystone, had there been other competitors at the time, K & C may have viewed the way it converted polystone into a finished product a trade secret.

In this case, because a vehicle that was used in a war like the Horch is an established fact, that, in and of itself, is not a trade secret. However, the timing of releases can be because the first one to market with a product will usually reap the rewards. Without naming names, back in the 80s there were two companies working on the same analgesic and both had been approved to market the product to the public. The key is who would be first. Company A was the first to market the product and the product has been a roaring success ever since. Company B was a few weeks tardy, never did well with it and their product, although no different than the one marketed by Company A, has been divested a couple of times. So first to market is important.

As I said earlier today, the alleged theft of a trade secret should not be aired in public but discussed privately. It's bad enough when we argue but I think manufacturers should discuss this among themselves.
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Thank you Brad- your insight is dead on- we in public accounting have special trade secrets of our own- You are right, this should have been a private issue.
 
Rob said:
I think its still so unusual to be able to talk to the man at the top of your favourite company, i was lucky if i got an answer from a receptionist at Dragon Models!.:rolleyes:
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Hi Rob, you're absolutely right - being in direct contact with the heads of toy soldier companies, be it Rick, Richard, Ana, Ken, Andy, Brian, is a special privilege in this hobby that sets it apart from many others. It is really fantastic!

But unfortunately this personal connection also carries the danger that legitimate critiques about a company’s products can come across like, or be labelled as, personal attacks against the owners of the companies themselves. And this leads to ridiculous counterproductive arguments between loyalists and critics, companies and consumers, and now companies versus companies!??!

Ultimately I don't know what the answer is to solve this paradox, except the answer is NOT found in censorship. We don’t want to scare away the owners, but we should also be able to speak frankly like valued customers who pay a lot of money for these products.

I think everyone (from owners down to consumers) should just try to be as respectful of each other as possible, and keep the discussion centred on products, not people. I probably have as far to go in this regard as anyone.

Have a great day guys.
 
I don't think it takes Sherlock Holmes to figure out that KC got wind of a couple of upcoming CS releases and had a bit of fun leaking the KC items in advance to take the wind out of their sails. Whether that is an ethical practice is questionable but I don't see it as a trade secret issue.
 
Canadian Samurai said:
That's a good point, and will be the real test I suppose. I hope it's a King Tiger - in which case, all sins will be forgiven. :D
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Hey CS,I'd love to see a King Tiger in whitewash.I think someone on here (perhaps Alex)painted one like this a while back,looked really good indeed.Although it would spell doom for my Bulge allied armour!;)

Rob
 
Over the last few years we have had
Winter Tiger SL by K and C 2005
Tigers 3 versions that open up by Figarti 2006
Tunisina Tiger aborted by NMA 2007
Tigers multiple variants by HB 2007/2008
Tunisina Tiger SL by K and C 2007
Tiger ?? CS 2008
Tiger ??? K and C 2008
I may have missed some out here

This is all top secret you know
I personally would like to see something a little different maybe some British/Polish/Free French/ American armor. That would have been a bit of a secret but a Tiger I am not so sure
 
Sooner or later one of the big producers will hit a vein of British Tanks.Churchills,Matilda's,Crusaders,Covenanter's,Centaur's,Cromwell's,Comet the list is huge.I think the next year or two will be great for new armour,perhaps the days of German armour advantage are over?

Rob
 
This thread could or should probably be closed now. Any further discussion of alleged copy-catting is counterproductive; as the Germans say, es ist ein Streit um des Kaisers Bart (a useless argument about nothing). And the side-threads that have come up would be better as independent threads in their own right, wouldn't they?
 
As the thread has quieted down and people may wish to discuss the new CS releases, I don't see any need to close the thread. We only close threads under the most extreme of circumstances and I don't believe this qualifies to be closed down.
 
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