Nobel prize for peace to Europe (1 Viewer)

[Poppo]

A few days ago Europe received this prestigious price with this motivation:"the EU for over sixty years helps to promote peace, reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe. "

As a european I am touched by this price and happy that the page of wars and hate has been defenetely turned for Europe.
Europe started the most terrible and deadly wars but at least this bloodshed hasn' t been unuseful and taught us the lesson of peace.

 

[Mitch]

Yes, they just fight outside the ''european'' borders now!! I think with all the fighting europe has seen since the end of the second world war depending on who is geographically calling it europe its a farce of an award for me.

Peace is defined loosley in terms of not being at the forefront of a world war X 2!!! There have been numerous european conflicts defined as civil war or similar in recent years.

an award for not having a world war.. Thats definately worth it!!
Mitch

 

[Scott]

The Prize is from the guy that invented dynamite.

"...In 1888 Alfred's brother Ludvig died while visiting Cannes and a French newspaper erroneously published Alfred's obituary.[SUP][1][/SUP] It condemned him for his invention of dynamite and is said to have brought about his decision to leave a better legacy after his death.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP] The obituary stated Le marchand de la mort est mort ("The merchant of death is dead")[SUP][1][/SUP] and went on to say, "Dr. Alfred Nobel, who became rich by finding ways to kill more people faster than ever before, died yesterday."[SUP][8][/SUP] Alfred was disappointed with what he read and concerned with how he would be remembered...."


Maybe this is like those safety signs at work. " ____days without an accident." In this case you get a prize. :wink2:

 

[Mitch]

Scott...

Its a farce and probably more to do with trying to keep the union together before it all falls apart than realising peace. Considering how many wars the european continent has had since the end of the second world war its obvious some twisted logic is used on the european mainland.

I think they must have overlooked Kosovo, Bosnia, (the fighting is still actually going on on the borders today) the three chechan wars cod wars georgian civil war of recent times. The list is endless. Thank god I don't class myself as a european!!
Mitch

 

[Martin Tabony]

It's not the only time the award has been questionable in recent years!

Martin

 

[Poppo]

Yes, they just fight outside the ''european'' borders now!! I think with all the fighting europe has seen since the end of the second world war depending on who is geographically calling it europe its a farce of an award for me.

Peace is defined loosley in terms of not being at the forefront of a world war X 2!!! There have been numerous european conflicts defined as civil war or similar in recent years.

an award for not having a world war.. Thats definately worth it!!
Mitch

It was said :"to promote peace, reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe."

It means inside Europe, not around the world...

Of course this price is given in a delicate political and economical moment for the UE, but they meant that Europe( european community) has found peace and respect among europen people...

If you don' t feel european, well, that' s your problem; I feel deeply european, culturally, and this doesn't mean that I don' t criticize this EU based on the banks control..

 

[Mitch]

Poppo...

Its not intended to look outside the european union my posts show how rather bizzarre it is to offer a prize for peace when many many thousands of europeans that have been killed including genocidal actions happen all within its european borders. Look back since 1945 and the continent has been awash with civil wars and wars from that day to this. To offer a prize for europe beiong able to maintain peace is another example of the madness that is the union. It was always intended to be a economic union to ease trade not a european state which, central powers are trying to attain Germany and France being the two.

Its a wash with political and other corruption and, a complete mess so, its no problem for me that I do not consider myself a european and, see anything to be proud of in having that title.

You can feel proud if you wish but, you place a thread stating how good it is and how good it is to get a prize for peace and, there is another side of that statement within the european borders.

Everyone of the reason stated that the prize was awarded can be rebutted. As I mentioned in my first post its a sham and, if its awarded for not having a world war then its a world gone mad as all they are dropping to give the prize is the word ''world''

I just see it differently to you no more no less
Mitch

It was said :"to promote peace, reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe."

It means inside Europe, not around the world...

Of course this price is given in a delicate political and economical moment for the UE, but they meant that Europe( european community) has found peace and respect among europen people...

If you don' t feel european, well, that' s your problem; I feel deeply european, culturally, and this doesn't mean that I don' t criticize this EU based on the banks control..

 

[Poppo]

Poppo...

Its not intended to look outside the european union my posts show how rather bizzarre it is to offer a prize for peace when many many thousands of europeans that have been killed including genocidal actions happen all within its european borders. Look back since 1945 and the continent has been awash with civil wars and wars from that day to this. To offer a prize for europe beiong able to maintain peace is another example of the madness that is the union. It was always intended to be a economic union to ease trade not a european state which, central powers are trying to attain Germany and France being the two.

Its a wash with political and other corruption and, a complete mess so, its no problem for me that I do not consider myself a european and, see anything to be proud of in having that title.

You can feel proud if you wish but, you place a thread stating how good it is and how good it is to get a prize for peace and, there is another side of that statement within the european borders.

Everyone of the reason stated that the prize was awarded can be rebutted. As I mentioned in my first post its a sham and, if its awarded for not having a world war then its a world gone mad as all they are dropping to give the prize is the word ''world''

I just see it differently to you no more no less
Mitch

Ok Mitch, thank you for expressing your point of view.

 

[Harper (aka Spitfrnd)]

A few days ago Europe received this prestigious price with this motivation:"the EU for over sixty years helps to promote peace, reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe. "

As a european I am touched by this price and happy that the page of wars and hate has been defenetely turned for Europe.
Europe started the most terrible and deadly wars but at least this bloodshed hasn' t been unuseful and taught us the lesson of peace.

I think most certainly hope you are right. At least they are doing better at the moment than they did in any prior century.

 

[jazzeum]

"Good news Chicken Little, the sky is not falling down."

 

[Scott]

It's not the only time the award has been questionable in recent years!

Martin

Those cases may be that "you aren't bad anymore" 1994 or "you aren't as bad as the last guy." 1990 and 2009

Most seem "legit."

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/

 

[Poppo]

I would add that the new generations are not guilty for the crimes of their fathers or grand fathers, or grand, grand fathers....
It is at least 3 generations of europeans who have been educated to peace and respect for minorities( Germany at first). And in EU the death penalty is banned....

And this can not be said for all the western countries.

 

[jazzeum]

I agree that today's generation is not responsible for two world wars, fomenting virulent rascism or the result of that rascism, millions of dead who used to live along what was known as the Pale of Settlement but the generation who lived through the second world war is not yet dead so it will take time before this period of history becomes a historical memory and enmities recede. 70 years is not a very long time.

 

[Mitch]

Poppo..

While I agree with you about guilt by association. germany has been under a cloud of guilt since the end of world war two and, in some respects its justified. Whilst post 1945 should not bear the accusations there are some that still continued to be ardent supporters of the nazi regime. Many young people not guilty of pulling the trigger grew up through those years and matured in a post war climate. They held the beliefs of the nazi regime and, in many cases it was developed with their children.

Many germans I have spoken with from that period and just after have quite strong beliefs about these issues.

Germany has had many problems through the years with racial issues and it continues today. Far right groups still exist in germany and, as with other european countries attitudes to minority groups are harsh look at the problems of immigration.

Germany has grown up without the absolute hatred of the 33-45 period but, they are no better or worse in terms of intergration with ''outsiders'' than any other european country. Europe has massive problems with accepting immigrants many riots and issues at local and national level have occured in germany in recent years.

Its obvious that links with the germans past will and have been made but, Brad is right wounds from the second world war run deep and, its no time for them to end especially when we still have people who went through the war on all sides still alive
Mitch

 

[Poppo]

Poppo..

While I agree with you about guilt by association. germany has been under a cloud of guilt since the end of world war two and, in some respects its justified. Whilst post 1945 should not bear the accusations there are some that still continued to be ardent supporters of the nazi regime. Many young people not guilty of pulling the trigger grew up through those years and matured in a post war climate. They held the beliefs of the nazi regime and, in many cases it was developed with their children.

Many germans I have spoken with from that period and just after have quite strong beliefs about these issues.

Germany has had many problems through the years with racial issues and it continues today. Far right groups still exist in germany and, as with other european countries attitudes to minority groups are harsh look at the problems of immigration.

Germany has grown up without the absolute hatred of the 33-45 period but, they are no better or worse in terms of intergration with ''outsiders'' than any other european country. Europe has massive problems with accepting immigrants many riots and issues at local and national level have occured in germany in recent years.

Its obvious that links with the germans past will and have been made but, Brad is right wounds from the second world war run deep and, its no time for them to end especially when we still have people who went through the war on all sides still alive
Mitch

Well, the question of foreigners in UE is a problem for many western countries...But I don 't agree about the far right groups in Germany today. Maybe there were untill 20 years ago, but today I think they are just few hundreds extreemists. And The fascist "skin heads", if I am not wrong, started in England where is also the "British national party", but it is not a reason why I can speak against England as I know that it is a very democratic country. Sure in many europen countries are today small extreemist parties, especially in Greece where the nazi party parades in the streets during the street protests...Even if Greece didn' t have a nazi regime during ww2.

About these far right groups, they are not in Germany today, but in Russia where they are really scaring and make violences as they are tolerated by the government...

I am 43, but also my parents, or even grandparents (when they were alive), didn ' t feel the hate or resentments that you feel about ww2. Maybe just after the war a relative of my father was bad treated in french camps after surrending in Africa and couldn' t stand french people when they entered his shop, but that was in the 50ies!
I think 70 years are a lot if you think that everything has changed and that that period is now so far from our thinking that it can be compared to napoleonic times.
The survivors "adults" during ww2 are few and very, very old today, yourself I don' t think you lived during ww2.

So I think what you have is more an "ideology" rahter than a spontaneous feeling, and you push the logic to make the ghosts of the past come alive...

 

[Mitch]

Poppo..

Not really sure what much of the post is about or, the last lines on ideology and WWII but, as this is not about WWII perhaps you could elaborate?

Germany as you have raised this has been plagued with racism and xenophobia and, not just from these far right groups. The UN itself has stated in the last couple of years germany has to sort itself out in the terms. To suggest germany does not have these issues seems strange. The BBC did a number of programmes and research on this in 2009 and a smaller bit of work in 2011 on racism and the findings were very revealing. It shows normal germans like I mentioned were very intolerant and racist.

Now, I am not focusing on germany just the whole of europe really does not deserve an award for tolerance democracy and everything else based on the whoful history the continent has had in terms of racism, xenophobia and war with acts of wanton genocide within its territories

Your original post was about your pride at being a european and, thats great but, it does not really deserve one when one looks at the history since 1945 which, is where the award mentions the strives made.
Mitch

 

[Scott]

[h=1]TAKE YOUR PICK...
http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/do-sons-bear-sins-fathers-or-not
Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?[/h]
Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9 and Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20

1. Yes they do
   1. (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   2. (Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   3. (Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
   4. (1 Cor. 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
2. No they don't
   1. (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
   2. (Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

 

[Poppo]

[h=1]TAKE YOUR PICK...
http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/do-sons-bear-sins-fathers-or-not
Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?[/h]
Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9 and Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20

1. Yes they do
   1. (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   2. (Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   3. (Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
   4. (1 Cor. 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
2. No they don't
   1. (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
   2. (Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

Amen

 

[Harper (aka Spitfrnd)]

[h=1]TAKE YOUR PICK...
http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/do-sons-bear-sins-fathers-or-not
Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?[/h]
Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9 and Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20

1. Yes they do
   1. (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   2. (Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   3. (Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
   4. (1 Cor. 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
2. No they don't
   1. (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
   2. (Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

I am afraid I don't understand this post. What do citations from the literature of any given religion have to do with the Nobel Prize? Also doesn't anyone capable of any objective thinking know this answer is not the first one cited?

 

[Scott]

I am afraid I don't understand this post. What do citations from the literature of any given religion have to do with the Nobel Prize? Also doesn't anyone capable of any objective thinking know this answer is not the first one cited?

There are some traditional expiration dates for generational guilt that might be applicable in the case of the Europeans.