NOR026-NOR035 Normandy German Fallschirmjager (2 Viewers)

[fmethorst]

Hi Frank,
A very valid point, I applaud your " Purist " Stance . I'm blinded by the Camo Patterns and depictions of the equipment, which are incredible. I support you efforts, after all if successful they will only benefit us all in the end by having a more Historically perfect product . Regards Gebhard

That's the tough part Gebhard, the rest of the figure is brilliant. The camo smocks are the best I've seen.

Frank

 

[Phantom Warrior]

There were 2 variants of Duklegelb applied in 1943 and various applications in the field thinned out by gas to various degrees. None were bright yellow.

That helmet is far brighter than even what K&C uses. I think it looks more like a construction helmet coloured for visibility than a combat helmet coloured for camo

Terry

 

[Gebhard]

I think it looks more like a construction helmet coloured for visibility than a combat helmet coloured for camo

Terry

Hi Terry ,
I Think that's going a bit far {eek3}{eek3}{eek3}

 

[Gebhard]

That's the tough part Gebhard, the rest of the figure is brilliant. The camo smocks are the best I've seen.

Frank

Hi Frank,
I totally agree, I have been collecting the elite forces of WWII for many many years and I must be honest the camo is the best I have ever seen on any pre painted factory figure and I will be picking up a few to display just like I did with the WSS figures. Good luck in your campaign you have my vote. regards Gebhard

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Hi Terry ,
I Think that's going a bit far {eek3}{eek3}{eek3}

It may be going a little far, but that is what it reminded me of - a construction helmet (just the colour) That's how far off dunklegelb I think it is. It's more of an attention getter than camo. And I'm not the only one who thought construction helmet yellow. Also suggested was the bright yellow on parts of the German WW I helmets. Maybe that's where the colour came from??? But I have never seen that yellow in any WW II publications. The several examples that Frank posted are what the yellow looked like.

Terry

 

[Gebhard]

Also suggested was the bright yellow on parts of the German WW I helmets. Maybe that's where the colour came from???.

Terry

Hi Terry ,
I'm not sure where you got your information that WWI German helmets were painted in Bright Yellow ^&confuse . There was a camo helmet introduced in July of 1918 which was painted in geometric brown and green shapes divided by black lines. This was supposed to produce the impression of shadows. I can tell you for sure no bright yellow was ever used on German helmets used in WWI anymore then the blue or purple was that I see some manufactures use. I can also tell you as a collector of original German Camo helmets that any examples that you may see using these colors were painted after the war using surplus helmets. The French did this on a very large scale to sell to Doughboys returning home who wanted nice souvenirs. Its a known red light going off for collectors looking to add one to their collection. Not trying to be disrespectful or a know it all, just trying to help and share first hand knowledge I have gained talking to other collectors around the world for over 40 years and visiting every museum collection I'm able to. regards Gebhard

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Hi Terry ,
I'm not sure where you got your information that WWI German helmets were painted in Bright Yellow ^&confuse . There was a camo helmet introduced in July of 1918 which was painted in geometric brown and green shapes divided by black lines. This was supposed to produce the impression of shadows. I can tell you for sure no bright yellow was ever used on German helmets used in WWI anymore then the blue or purple was that I see some manufactures use. I can also tell you as a collector of original German Camo helmets that any examples that you may see using these colors were painted after the war using surplus helmets. The French did this on a very large scale to sell to Doughboys returning home who wanted nice souvenirs. Its a known red light going off for collectors looking to add one to their collection. Not trying to be disrespectful or a know it all, just trying to help and share first hand knowledge I have gained talking to other collectors around the world for over 40 years and visiting every museum collection I'm able to. regards Gebhard

No problem Gebs. I'm not to knowledgable on uniforms. My comments were more towards how the FL interpretation of dunklegelb would appear on an AFV. My comment on the WWI helmet came from this photo. I have no idea if it is an after war fake. In any case, fake or real it appears close to but even brighter than the FL colour which in my opinion is way too bright. I can't vizualize it on the side of a Panzer IV.

 

[Blowtorch]

RAL 7028 is a complex color and depending on the lighting can look more tan, grey or yellow. It is a subdued color and shouldn't appear strongly tan or yellow.

Frank

Second only to Olive Drab in causing consternation! {sm4}

For the benefit of all the toy makers out there, it helps if you have the problem reduced to numbers for you:

The challenge toy makers have is to take the real 1:1 paint color & put in a 'scale effect' to make it more palatable at small scale. If you have a Munsell Book of Color and the data on the original standards, this can help keep things in perspective.
The lesson is to keep chroma & value in balance...not go crazy on one or the other. When you scale, the idea is to lean more towards increasing the value with finer adjustments in chroma.

The system



The Tool



The Data of Chory's Chips (A Treefrog Special...never published anywhere else!)

 

[Blowtorch]

And to give an appreciation for the numbers, the format is is HV/C

So 2.66Y5.57/4.23 means Hue 2.66Y; Value 5.57; Chroma 4.23

The units of spacing are 1.25 for Hue, 0.1 for Value, 0.15 for Chroma.

Which means you wouldn't perceive a change in appearance until the Hue changed at least to 3.91 or 1.41Y; and/or the Value changed to 5.67 or 5.47; and /or the Chroma changed to 4.38 or 4.08. Adding these up would units of error off standard. Within 3 and you have a good match. Beyond three and you are starting to suffer.

so it's quite obvious that the very first Dunkelgelb was by far much higher in chroma (color intensity) than any later standard. By nearly 9 units of error to it's next closest derivative...way way off (4.23-2.89=1.34; 1.34/0.15=8.9)

 

[Phantom Warrior]

From your table, Duklegelb Nach Muster (after 1943) has a chroma of 4.23 which is very high compared to the 4 variants of RAL 7028 which range from only 1.70 - 2.89. So what are you saying about the FL yellow helmet colour? Too high a chroma? Or that it is Dunkelgelb Nach Muster??

Terry

 

[Blowtorch]

From your table, Duklegelb Nach Muster (after 1943) has a chroma of 4.23 which is very high compared to the 4 variants of RAL 7028 which range from only 1.70 - 2.89. So what are you saying about the FL yellow helmet colour? Too high a chroma? Or that it is Dunkelgelb Nach Muster??

Terry

Terry, first of all it's been a long time since I paid any attention to German colors so I defer to people more up on it like Frank. The data isn't trying to prove a point about the validity of the helmet one way or the other...just this tool exists, the data exists & I exist, meaning someone could send me trial paint swatches to see where their matching / lightening attempts are going numerically.

I'm less concerned about the stock photo & more concerned about Franks statements. The FL photos are all Photoshop brightened so that may not mean anything. But Frank has the bazooka & he says he isn't happy with it. With looking at the picture, that helmet looks like a high (end of scale) chroma. We won't know for sure until we get in hand.

Going by memory, I thought Dunkelgelb nach Muster was pre 43 (the German farm equipment color) from which the military color was derived. Thus it being so different.

That was a nice pic of the Panzerjag IV. What museum is it from? Do you have any DAK color from the same source?

 

[jager7080]

Terry, first of all it's been a long time since I paid any attention to German colors so I defer to people more up on it like Frank. The data isn't trying to prove a point about the validity of the helmet one way or the other...just this tool exists, the data exists & I exist, meaning someone could send me trial paint swatches to see where their matching / lightening attempts are going numerically.

I'm less concerned about the stock photo & more concerned about Franks statements. The FL photos are all Photoshop brightened so that may not mean anything. But Frank has the bazooka & he says he isn't happy with it. With looking at the picture, that helmet looks like a high (end of scale) chroma. We won't know for sure until we get in hand.

Going by memory, I thought Dunkelgelb nach Muster was pre 43 (the German farm equipment color) from which the military color was derived. Thus it being so different.

That was a nice pic of the Panzerjag IV. What museum is it from? Do you have any DAK color from the same source?

Blowtorch ,

The Jagdpanzer IV pic , looks to be from the Panzer Museum in Munster Germany...

Joe

 

[Blowtorch]

Blowtorch ,

The Jagdpanzer IV pic , looks to be from the Panzer Museum in Munster Germany...

Joe

That's what I was hoping! They have the real WW2 RAL charts in several places in Germany. I've been long thinking about flying there to measure them but I need a partner over there who speaks v.g. diplomatic German ^&grin

 

[Blowtorch]

Oh forgot, another thing the data illustrates is why it's a RAL 7000 series (grey) number. 0 Chroma = gray. /2's are near greys.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry, first of all it's been a long time since I paid any attention to German colors so I defer to people more up on it like Frank. The data isn't trying to prove a point about the validity of the helmet one way or the other...just this tool exists, the data exists & I exist, meaning someone could send me trial paint swatches to see where their matching / lightening attempts are going numerically.

I'm less concerned about the stock photo & more concerned about Franks statements. The FL photos are all Photoshop brightened so that may not mean anything. But Frank has the bazooka & he says he isn't happy with it. With looking at the picture, that helmet looks like a high (end of scale) chroma. We won't know for sure until we get in hand.

Going by memory, I thought Dunkelgelb nach Muster was pre 43 (the German farm equipment color) from which the military color was derived. Thus it being so different.

That was a nice pic of the Panzerjag IV. What museum is it from? Do you have any DAK color from the same source?

Blowtorch ,

The Jagdpanzer IV pic , looks to be from the Panzer Museum in Munster Germany...

Joe

I thought Dunkelgelb Nach Muster was started in 1943 and was before the Dunkelgelb colour was given the RAL7028 number? And I think from memory Joe is right about where the AFV is housed as I got the photo specifically for the accurate colour as a reference - I just don't remember where it came from

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I did some checking. There were 5 official versions of Dunkelgelb and none of them are bright yellow or even very yellow at all. Dunkelgelb probably did evolve from the yellow on farming equipment toned down for war use. What I am understanding is that Dunkelgelb Nach Muster was the first in the series used from February - April 1943. It was never given a RAL number becuase it was quickly replaced by a variant which was the first of four RAL7028 colours. The Nach Muster simply means according to the sample as it had no RAL number. To me, the helmet colour proposed by FL looks more like a bright Elfenblein RAL1001.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

 

[Mitch]

I would agree with Frank. The depiction of dunkelgelb is very bright and, its not just the pictures they show it actually is wrong for me on the SS stuff. I shaded the PS down on my SS trooper to a more acceptable level.
Mitch

 

[fmethorst]

Part of the problem has been years of exposure to model box art and book art that looked great but wasn't necessarily a reflection of reality



Another problem is repaints, particularly museum repaints which people often consider authoritative sources.

Case in point. Here are a couple pictures I took at Bovington that are brutal:





Even worse Tiger 332 from the Patton Museum



Of the pictures I've seen from the various museums Munster and Samur seem to do the best job of trying to match original colors.

Frank

 

[Gebhard]

Part of the problem has been years of exposure to model box art and book art that looked great but wasn't necessarily a reflection of reality



Another problem is repaints, particularly museum repaints which people often consider authoritative sources.

Case in point. Here are a couple pictures I took at Bovington that are brutal:





Even worse Tiger 332 from the Patton Museum



Of the pictures I've seen from the various museums Munster and Samur seem to do the best job of trying to match original colors.

Frank

Hi Frank,
Very True,
If your interested I have visited Munster several times and photographed the entire collection. I could post all the items that may be relevant to the color currently in this discussion. regards Gebhard