Onager (2 Viewers)

[wayne556517]

Looks good

 

[Sahara]

Looks good

Agreed.

 

[katana]

Roman Onagers utilized a sling not a cup to hold the shot. A sling increased the range by 1/3. Bows were not used on Roman Onagers. A torsion spring was the source of power. The second photo shows a currently available 1/30 scale Roman Onager that in the most accurate model produced to date IMO.

 

[Warrior]

Roman Onagers utilized a sling not a cup to hold the shot. A sling increased the range by 1/3. Bows were not used on Roman Onagers. A torsion spring was the source of power. The second photo shows a currently available 1/30 scale Roman Onager that in the most accurate model produced to date IMO.

View attachment 251595View attachment 251596

Is that another one of your award winning Playmobile items; you know, the ones you claim are historically accurate?

Asking for a friend...……………….

 

[katana]

The Roman Onager in the second photo was designed by Thomas Gunn. Y-weido has one posted on his Ebay site for $60.00. The design is similar to the working model built by Major General Erwin Schramm a Prussian Artillery officer and displayed at the Saalburg Roman Fortress near Weisbaden Germany.

Ammianus Marcellinus described the Roman Onager in detail. The Osprey New Vanguard 89 Greek and Roman Artillery 399 BC-AD 363 shows several Roman Onager reconstructions and cites Schramm and Marcellinus works.

I am sure the FL Catapult is well built; but it is only accurate if it is considered a Medieval weapon. Roman artillery was far more sophisticated.

Is that another one of your award winning Playmobile items; you know, the ones you claim are historically accurate?

Asking for a friend...……………….

 

[Sahara]

Well back to the Roman onager that FL will be releasing. I love it and will be getting one. The figures to complement the onager look amazing. I guess I will just have to live with the inaccuracies. Lets face it we may never see another perfect piece such as the Playmobile Roman Galley. We are all just gonna have to learn to accept this ^&grin

 

[katana]

Historical accuracy in a model is important. A model that is inaccurate is a toy and should be priced accordingly IMO.

 

[Sahara]

Historical accuracy in a model is important. A model that is inaccurate is a toy and should be priced accordingly IMO.

So just out of curiosity which do you prefer?

 

[katana]

I prefer models to toys; but if a model of something I am interested in is not available than I will modify a toy to fill the roll as I did with the Playmobil Roman ship. I build Roman fortifications, temples and triumphal arches using Exin blocks; which are toys that can be adapted to realistic Roman structures. I have posted many photos of these on the forum. Take a look you may find them of interest. I used an Elastolin Ballista in a Roman siege diorama. A toy, but also an accurate model. I have yet to see a better Ballista made!

FL did a superb Roman Skorpion and a Medieval Trebuchet; both were very accurate models. Why the Roman Onager is not as accurate as those is strange.

So just out of curiosity which do you prefer?

 

[FirstLegion]

I prefer models to toys; but if a model of something I am interested in is not available than I will modify a toy to fill the roll as I did with the Playmobil Roman ship. I build Roman fortifications, temples and triumphal arches using Exin blocks; which are toys that can be adapted to realistic Roman structures. I have posted many photos of these on the forum. Take a look you may find them of interest. I used an Elastolin Ballista in a Roman siege diorama. A toy, but also an accurate model. I have yet to see a better Ballista made!

And you of course have proof that our Onager is incorrect? You were there right?

Y-Weido is a notorious seller of out the back door illegal products, i'm surprised he has an Onager priced as high as $60 when the costs are zero. FL has constantly had his ebay items removed from his listings by violating Ebays VERO policy. I guess I should check again to be sure he's not selling more illegal Products.

Honestly, i'm a pretty easy going guy. But you're insufferable. Spend more time with your historical playmobile models and your collection of plastic toys that you find realistic. From my perspective, you possess a uniquely strange combination of superiority complex coupled with a massively inferior collection of what I would call junk. Really, your collection looks strangely similar to the collection of my 6 year old.

 

[katana]

I find my Figaeti Panzer collection is the equal of any FL Panzer. Please note I praised the accuracy of the FL Skorpion and Trebuchet. I cannot understand how the FL Roman Onager could have so many errors. The Roman Onager I posted a photo of is a Thomas Gunn product and they did their research and designed a superior product.

Attacking the messenger does not correct the errors in a product. I have been to the Saalburg Roman Fortress and seen the Roman Onager reconstruction made by General Schramm; have you?

And you of course have proof that our Onager is incorrect? You were there right?

Y-Weido is a notorious seller of out the back door illegal products, i'm surprised he has an Onager priced as high as $60 when the costs are zero. FL has constantly had his ebay items removed from his listings by violating Ebays VERO policy. I guess I should check again to be sure he's not selling more illegal Products.

Honestly, i'm a pretty easy going guy. But you're insufferable. Spend more time with your historical playmobile models and your collection of plastic toys that you find realistic. From my perspective, you possess a uniquely strange combination of superiority complex coupled with a massively inferior collection of what I would call junk. Really, your collection looks strangely similar to the collection of my 6 year old.

 

[King Tiger II]

Im no Historian but the FL onager is impressive with the crew.
Will go well with my historically acurate playmobil collection.
Gonna buy 1 for sure.

Serge

 

[jazzeum]

Really, your collection looks strangely similar to the collection of my 6 year old.

Don't insult your son Matt :wink2:

 

[Horus]

The Roman Army lasted centuries and I'm sure they would have tried and used lots of different designs at different times in different areas of the Empire.

As Carl Sagen said; Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Next you guys will be telling me there is no Santa / Tooth Fairy / Leprechauns.

Steve :wink2:

 

[jazzeum]

Next you guys will be telling me there is no Santa / Tooth Fairy / Leprechauns.

Steve :wink2:

Well, about that, Steve....

 

[wayne556517]

Looking at it I'm wondering how it works ??

If those arms are launch like a Ballista or a Scorpio why have the pouch for the projectile ??

I'm no expert I'm just asking for a explanation on how this one from FL would actually work,I know google it but I'm assuming we have experts on here that could help out in this discussion including Matt he made it so I gather he has reference material,don't wanna fight just want to be taught how it actually would work
.

 

[bradleyl30]

My understanding is that this could be a later version of a mangonel and is sometimes referred to as a two-armed onager. This came between the one armed onager (also a mangonel) and the trebuchet.

Their are descriptions of a machine that Vespasian used in the Levant, possibly during the seige of Jotapata. As Katana says, most onagers used a sling. This created a looping trajectory. Supposedly using the cup allowed for larger stones, and more importantly, a flatter trajectory better for hitting walls and other battlements.



This is a replica of a machine described at the seige of Acre. There are doubts that about whether it actually existed and my understanding is that tests have not shown it to be that effective.

I think this follows one of Matt's (First Legion's) patterns that they often try to create highly specific varieties of military machinery that are not run of the mill. Similar to the Panzer III J he created for Stalingrad, it is a very specific variant that would be hard to recreate without copying him. Again, it is possible this existed, but not certain.

Matt, please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what my research says about this.

And for the record, I will probably purchase it.

 

[katana]

The Torsion Spring was the energy storage means for both the Onager; which used one spring and the Ballista; which used two springs. The Onager was like a Howitzer with a high trajectory. The Ballista had a flat trajectory. The Onager was a simplification of the Ballista and was introduced in the 4th century when the Roman Empire was in decline.

Medieval Catapults used a Bow as the energy storage means; as the technology of the Torsion Spring was lost with the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Trebuchet displaced the Catapult/Mangonol as it was more efficient and could throw larger shot over longer ranges. Tests by Payne Galway of a reproduction Onager using a cup and a sling showed the sling to be superior by 33% in range.

Elastolin made excellent models of Medieval Bow Catapults and Roman Ballista; both can be found on Ebay.

 

[Dragoon]

What I'm having trouble understanding is how a torsion spring AND the bow spring worked together simultaneously to propel an object. It seems the two would have to release and work exactly in sync, which would be no mean feat. - Much like the double barrel cannon of the American Civil War. It was meant to fire two cannon balls with a long chain connecting. Even the slightest difference in each barrel's firing sent the projectiles off in a wild unforeseen trajectory. The cannon never saw combat.

 

[katana]

Historically Catapults used either a Torsion Spring or a Bow; not both. You are correct in your assessment that they could not operate together efficiently, if at all. The counter weight Trebuchet was superior to the Catapult/Manganol and replaced it in the 13 century. The Trebuchet used a Sling like the Onager. A Sling acts as a compound lever increasing the range.

What I'm having trouble understanding is how a torsion spring AND the bow spring worked together simultaneously to propel an object. It seems the two would have to release and work exactly in sync, which would be no mean feat. - Much like the double barrel cannon of the American Civil War. It was meant to fire two cannon balls with a long chain connecting. Even the slightest difference in each barrel's firing sent the projectiles off in a wild unforeseen trajectory. The cannon never saw combat.