Proving, once again, that war crimes are forever, an article from the news services today, that Germany has an active investigation in progress of 6 former members of the 2nd SS Das Reich division for actions during the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane. The 6 men are under investigation for murder or accessory to murder and are all 85 or 86 years of age and were members of the SS company responsible for the June 10, 1944 massacre in which 642 men, women, and children died. The massacre took place during Das Reich's move towards the invasion beaches in Normandy and was the largest massacre in Nazi-occupied France. Justice has no expiration date. -- Al
Oradour-sur-Glane (1 Viewer)
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Rob
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Wow, had no idea investigations were still active, went there many many years ago, truly sad place. War is a terrible thing and this place brings home that its often the innocent who suffer. If anyone is still alive who did indeed take part in this I hope they face justice.
Rob
jazzeum
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I can't speak for German law but in this country there is no statute of limitations on murder. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same in Germany or France, particularly as it relates to war crimes. They may be 85 or 86 but the people they killed, particulalry the children, never had the benefit of reaching a ripe old age.
Even if convicted, I doubt they're going to face the death sentence and since they're rather elderly already, jail time. Maybe just the fact that they're convicted is punishment enough, although I doubt any relatives of the survivors would probably disagree.
Moreover, let's face it, most of these killers will be (or have been) dying off anyway so if there is a God in heaven perhaps those not convicted during their temporal life will be sentenced to purgatory in the after life.
For some reason and I don't want to trivialize the issue but the following line from the movie the Odessa File (about hunting down Nazis in post WW II Germany) comes to mind: "I bear no hatred nor bitterness towards the German people. Peoples are not evil. Only individuals are evil."
Even if convicted, I doubt they're going to face the death sentence and since they're rather elderly already, jail time. Maybe just the fact that they're convicted is punishment enough, although I doubt any relatives of the survivors would probably disagree.
Moreover, let's face it, most of these killers will be (or have been) dying off anyway so if there is a God in heaven perhaps those not convicted during their temporal life will be sentenced to purgatory in the after life.
For some reason and I don't want to trivialize the issue but the following line from the movie the Odessa File (about hunting down Nazis in post WW II Germany) comes to mind: "I bear no hatred nor bitterness towards the German people. Peoples are not evil. Only individuals are evil."
Mitch
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This is a fascinating topic which, holds many different questions about what went on. I read with interest the charges being brought against these men . Morally, we want to see those persons responsible for the acts at Oradour punished. Legally, I am of the mind that this is a prosecution that should not really be brought. I can hear the howls of derision but, many prosecutions fail because witnesses cannot remember what they saw three months or six months a year after events they have witnessed. Identification of alleged offenders is very problematic and, in English law much case law has tried to offer ways to ensure the right person is identified. Most have failed to do this as we are dealing with the fallibility of memory especially, in traumatic situations.
Here we are dealing with documentation and, elderly witnesses (a very small number) who, may have saw a trooper for a brief second and, identified him as a perpetrator of the massacre. The Bordeaux trial in 1953 tried several of those who were believed to be guilty of this action the difficulty then was the same as now. What was remarkable with this trial was that the French had to introduce legislation in 1948 to allow it to prosecute members of the Das Reich who were Alsatians and French. under article 3 anyone who was part of 3 Kompany Das Reich was guilty under ‘collective responsibility’ of being involved in the massacre a point I always found wrong and a step to far which, incriminates those who had nothing to do with oradour. Paul Graff and Goerges- rene Boos were convicted but, only Paul Graff admitted being their and killing people in Oradour.
Heinz Barth a former Untersturmfuhrer of Das Reich was tried in 1983, sentenced to life imprisonment but, released in 1997 on grounds of ill health and, that he showed remorse
The events surrounding Oradour are complex and, not, as has been portrayed, an act of German revenge ran amuck. This does not mitigate the act but, its overlooked at the fact that the Germans were going to courts-martial Sturmbannfuhrer Dickmann (officer in charge at Oradour) when fighting permitted it. He was KIA later in Normandy and action against him dropped.
I find it hard to understand how we now have better evidence about the troops who took part in the oradour massacre now in 2011 than was available in the short few years after WWII. We knew then 66 soldiers from the regiments involved or allegedly involved were alive after the war. It will be interesting watching how this progresses.
Mitch
Here we are dealing with documentation and, elderly witnesses (a very small number) who, may have saw a trooper for a brief second and, identified him as a perpetrator of the massacre. The Bordeaux trial in 1953 tried several of those who were believed to be guilty of this action the difficulty then was the same as now. What was remarkable with this trial was that the French had to introduce legislation in 1948 to allow it to prosecute members of the Das Reich who were Alsatians and French. under article 3 anyone who was part of 3 Kompany Das Reich was guilty under ‘collective responsibility’ of being involved in the massacre a point I always found wrong and a step to far which, incriminates those who had nothing to do with oradour. Paul Graff and Goerges- rene Boos were convicted but, only Paul Graff admitted being their and killing people in Oradour.
Heinz Barth a former Untersturmfuhrer of Das Reich was tried in 1983, sentenced to life imprisonment but, released in 1997 on grounds of ill health and, that he showed remorse
The events surrounding Oradour are complex and, not, as has been portrayed, an act of German revenge ran amuck. This does not mitigate the act but, its overlooked at the fact that the Germans were going to courts-martial Sturmbannfuhrer Dickmann (officer in charge at Oradour) when fighting permitted it. He was KIA later in Normandy and action against him dropped.
I find it hard to understand how we now have better evidence about the troops who took part in the oradour massacre now in 2011 than was available in the short few years after WWII. We knew then 66 soldiers from the regiments involved or allegedly involved were alive after the war. It will be interesting watching how this progresses.
Mitch
Rob
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I think there is a lot of IF's here, IF there is enough evidence against suspects then justice should be meted out to those who commited this terrible act, but that is a big IF. IF they are guilty let them go to prison however old they are, you can't say ' I know you killed dozens of women and children but you're old so off you go ' but if there is no evidence let's hope as Brad alluded to that there is justice
awaiting them in the next life .
Rob
awaiting them in the next life .
Rob
Mitch
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Rob...
I agree the problem is proving it and, that was part of my post that its much much harder to do this after the length of time that has elapsed. I wonder if they will be actually the ones who were pulling the trigger and, setting things ablaze or, just members of the Das Reich. The previous trials I mentioned had those who were responsible and could not prove it against them then.
Mitch
I agree the problem is proving it and, that was part of my post that its much much harder to do this after the length of time that has elapsed. I wonder if they will be actually the ones who were pulling the trigger and, setting things ablaze or, just members of the Das Reich. The previous trials I mentioned had those who were responsible and could not prove it against them then.
Mitch
Rob
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Absolutely Mitch, it must be incredibly hard to pin point the guilty. There must also be members of
Das Reich that did not commit murder and who were just there with their unit. As you say this is a
long time ago now, very hard to prosecute I imagine. Must say it was a surprise to see German
authorities still investigating , as Al said the law has a long reach.
Rob
Das Reich that did not commit murder and who were just there with their unit. As you say this is a
long time ago now, very hard to prosecute I imagine. Must say it was a surprise to see German
authorities still investigating , as Al said the law has a long reach.
Rob
Mitch
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Gazza…
I am sure that you have read about this but, from my reading of the events and, the Das Reich records and speaking to DR members I would say that it’s a series of events that snowballed into what happened when the soldiers arrived in the town that afternoon.
I think, primarily, its down to the actions of the local resistance the Maquisards and, the actions they took not only against DR but, local Heer units. We know of the many reprisal actions against not only captured resistance but, civilians in those areas. One that springs to mind is the Tulle hangings in reprisal for the deaths of 73 Germans.
Anyway, that’s by the by. I would think the events began primarily with the kidnapping of Sturmbannfuhrer Kampf by the local resistance and, the huge efforts that were put in to finding him especially, by Sturmbannfuhrer Dickmann who was in charge of the troops at Oradour. Its worthy to note, that he was especially close with the kidnapped officer. His attempts to find his Kamerad were aided by local informants saying that a high ranking officer was being held by the resistance at Oradour and, this was also confirmed by local SD informants. This set the ball rolling. It has been suggested that this was a rather malicious offering to the Germans of false information to draw them away from where the real Marquis HQ was and, probably, should he still have been alive Kampf would have been held.
So, with huge concern for a friend and, poor intelligence given and, a lack of real interest in confirming it Dickmann deployed to Oradour
Trial transcripts from Barth’s 1983 trial stated in prosecution that some of the Alsatians in the company were told before moving out that ’’they would see something special today’’ whether that was true is another issue but, it seems (though we have no proof) that Dickmann intended to carry out a reprisal on Oradour in response to his missing friend.
I also remember reading that usually Oradour would have been rather empty on the day the SS entered but, that there was a weekly collection of tobacco on that day and, some black market food was being sold. farmers from the fields had returned to the village and, all the schools were in full attendance as their was something like medical or school inspections planned. This all from what I read and heard confirmed to Dickmann that Oradour was a hot bed of Maquis activity. A full village with many persons who were not inhabitants of Oradour.
If Oradour was not a complex action the Germans could have choose one of many of the local towns or villages to perpetrate an act of wanton savagery but, Oradour was highlighted to them, it seemed to fit what was needed and, off they went
Its complex IMO for these and other reasons. Dickmann would, but for his death, have faced courts-martial and, was open to state he would deny and defend himself against the charges that were to be laid. The DR was not shy in subduing the local Maquis who were as hated by local people as the Germans often, more.
Its often believed that the Germans just were driving along heading for the Normandy battlefields and, thought lets burn and kill everyone at Oradour. Indeed that is what happened but, its just not that simple.
Its also important to note finally that the Germans were fighting what historically could be seen as a guerilla force under armistice conditions, that does not condone what happened but, can be used as an explanation to the reprisals that took place in that area and a contributing factor to Oradour and many of the other actions taken by DR and other units
Mitch
I am sure that you have read about this but, from my reading of the events and, the Das Reich records and speaking to DR members I would say that it’s a series of events that snowballed into what happened when the soldiers arrived in the town that afternoon.
I think, primarily, its down to the actions of the local resistance the Maquisards and, the actions they took not only against DR but, local Heer units. We know of the many reprisal actions against not only captured resistance but, civilians in those areas. One that springs to mind is the Tulle hangings in reprisal for the deaths of 73 Germans.
Anyway, that’s by the by. I would think the events began primarily with the kidnapping of Sturmbannfuhrer Kampf by the local resistance and, the huge efforts that were put in to finding him especially, by Sturmbannfuhrer Dickmann who was in charge of the troops at Oradour. Its worthy to note, that he was especially close with the kidnapped officer. His attempts to find his Kamerad were aided by local informants saying that a high ranking officer was being held by the resistance at Oradour and, this was also confirmed by local SD informants. This set the ball rolling. It has been suggested that this was a rather malicious offering to the Germans of false information to draw them away from where the real Marquis HQ was and, probably, should he still have been alive Kampf would have been held.
So, with huge concern for a friend and, poor intelligence given and, a lack of real interest in confirming it Dickmann deployed to Oradour
Trial transcripts from Barth’s 1983 trial stated in prosecution that some of the Alsatians in the company were told before moving out that ’’they would see something special today’’ whether that was true is another issue but, it seems (though we have no proof) that Dickmann intended to carry out a reprisal on Oradour in response to his missing friend.
I also remember reading that usually Oradour would have been rather empty on the day the SS entered but, that there was a weekly collection of tobacco on that day and, some black market food was being sold. farmers from the fields had returned to the village and, all the schools were in full attendance as their was something like medical or school inspections planned. This all from what I read and heard confirmed to Dickmann that Oradour was a hot bed of Maquis activity. A full village with many persons who were not inhabitants of Oradour.
If Oradour was not a complex action the Germans could have choose one of many of the local towns or villages to perpetrate an act of wanton savagery but, Oradour was highlighted to them, it seemed to fit what was needed and, off they went
Its complex IMO for these and other reasons. Dickmann would, but for his death, have faced courts-martial and, was open to state he would deny and defend himself against the charges that were to be laid. The DR was not shy in subduing the local Maquis who were as hated by local people as the Germans often, more.
Its often believed that the Germans just were driving along heading for the Normandy battlefields and, thought lets burn and kill everyone at Oradour. Indeed that is what happened but, its just not that simple.
Its also important to note finally that the Germans were fighting what historically could be seen as a guerilla force under armistice conditions, that does not condone what happened but, can be used as an explanation to the reprisals that took place in that area and a contributing factor to Oradour and many of the other actions taken by DR and other units
Mitch
Events snowballed…
No. This was a highly organised activity that went on for hours, even days. They went into a town, separated the women and children from the men; they knew exactly what they were going to do. They chose to machine gun women and children, throw hand grenades at them and set them on fire. They killed 205 children. This is up close, nasty stuff.
I would think the events began primarily with the kidnapping of Sturmbannfuhrer Kampf by the local resistance …
This reads like cause and effect and appears to try and find some justification for their actions
Dickmann would, but for his death, have faced courts-martial…
Really, do you seriously think so? How many SS men were court martialled for war crimes in WW2? I have no idea but given the SS's actions on the Eastern Front there would have been a lot of court martials.
Germans were fighting what historically could be seen as a guerilla force under armistice conditions
Now I think you are stretching the justification.
Sorry but I think these men should pay their dues and this should have happened a long time ago.
Gazza
No. This was a highly organised activity that went on for hours, even days. They went into a town, separated the women and children from the men; they knew exactly what they were going to do. They chose to machine gun women and children, throw hand grenades at them and set them on fire. They killed 205 children. This is up close, nasty stuff.
I would think the events began primarily with the kidnapping of Sturmbannfuhrer Kampf by the local resistance …
This reads like cause and effect and appears to try and find some justification for their actions
Dickmann would, but for his death, have faced courts-martial…
Really, do you seriously think so? How many SS men were court martialled for war crimes in WW2? I have no idea but given the SS's actions on the Eastern Front there would have been a lot of court martials.
Germans were fighting what historically could be seen as a guerilla force under armistice conditions
Now I think you are stretching the justification.
Sorry but I think these men should pay their dues and this should have happened a long time ago.
Gazza
Currahee Chris
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This is gonna be good.
Place your bets boys, post 55 im taking and the thread gets closed!! Im giving 2:1 pre post 55 and 5 to 1 55 and over{sm4}{sm4}
Place your bets boys, post 55 im taking and the thread gets closed!! Im giving 2:1 pre post 55 and 5 to 1 55 and over{sm4}{sm4}
Louis Badolato
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I'm with Gazza, 100%, and am, frankly, appalled by Mitch's attempt to justify the SS scum's actions. As far as I'm concerned, anybody in the Das Reich SS Division present in the town that day is guilty. Come on! 205 children machine gunned, hand grenaded and burned to death!! Mitch, what the hell are you thinking, man?!!
Gentle Friends,
Please be careful with your posts on this thread. While there is certainly room to process and understand differences of opinion, the discussion must demonstrate respect for each other. Please allow your logic and intellect, rather than your emotions and passions, determine the content of your posts. Otherwise, Chris' prediction of a closed thread and potential penalties may come true.
Warmest personal regards,
Pat
Please be careful with your posts on this thread. While there is certainly room to process and understand differences of opinion, the discussion must demonstrate respect for each other. Please allow your logic and intellect, rather than your emotions and passions, determine the content of your posts. Otherwise, Chris' prediction of a closed thread and potential penalties may come true.
Warmest personal regards,
Pat
jazzeum
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You beat me to it. It's only a matter of time. Not if, but when.
Mitch
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I think the odds are just hopes as this is about History and facts not, emotive name calling and assumptions that do not exist. I thank Wadepat for his intervention.
Sorry guys but, I am not defending the DR and, did not in the post. Gazza asked a question and, I responded using primary and secondary research which, is factual and not the emotion fuelled response to the actions at Oradour.
Max Hastings and, the divisional histories of the DR show that Dickmann was to be courts-martialled. Regardless of events on the russian front his commanding officers report show this was to happen and, Dickmann himself wrote about it as mentioned he was to deny the charges that would be laid at his door. The what if's arise as to the charges and, whether they would have been overidden by higher SS powers but, thats not in question thats a fact and on the record
I also am not stretching the facts about histories. hatred by regular soldiers of the ''guerilla'' ''freedom fighter'' or ''insurgent'' is a fact in our history books. Historically, non uniformed combatants have been dealt with in an equally harsh manner. Now, if my post came across as a defence of the DR it was not. it was, a historical analysis of events purtaining to non uniformed combatants. Look at Massena's forces and the way they acted in 1808 against the spanish guerilla's!! Look at the way the napoleonic regime acted with utter ruthlessness to its conquered peoples. In the Franco/ prussian war the French killed thousands of germans and, forced the prussians to deploy 120,000 troops to guard their communications and supply lines. Indeed, Bismarck said of these non uniformed combatants ''they are not soldiers and, we are beating them down mercilessly and, as murderes''
Even Lt Gen Montgomery in 1921 when in charge of fighting the Irish Guerilla's said his whole effort and time was put into defeating the guerilla's. ''It never bothered me (He wrote) how many homes were burnt down and anyone who interferes with an officer or troop will be shot''
My point was not a defence of the DR but, showing that they saw the Maquis a force that was illegal in the circumstances and, they also purpotrated vicious acts upon German soldiers. This is what I meant after all the research that events snowballed Dickmann acted emotionally as it was a friend who was kidnapped and, failed to qualify the intelligence he was given. The fact that the village was filled with more people than normal is, sadly one of those fatefull events that always conspire in tradgic circunmstances like this. It was also filled with by and large people who had no love for the Maquis as many French hated them also. This is what I meant by historically and, historically civillians bearing arms have been summarily executed.
This is why I mentioned that Oradour is more complex than just a wanton act of violence with no reason. That does not mean that it was right of course not, but, that should not allow us to ignore what really happened and, have it that the germans were bad and the allies were good.
Mitch
Sorry guys but, I am not defending the DR and, did not in the post. Gazza asked a question and, I responded using primary and secondary research which, is factual and not the emotion fuelled response to the actions at Oradour.
Max Hastings and, the divisional histories of the DR show that Dickmann was to be courts-martialled. Regardless of events on the russian front his commanding officers report show this was to happen and, Dickmann himself wrote about it as mentioned he was to deny the charges that would be laid at his door. The what if's arise as to the charges and, whether they would have been overidden by higher SS powers but, thats not in question thats a fact and on the record
I also am not stretching the facts about histories. hatred by regular soldiers of the ''guerilla'' ''freedom fighter'' or ''insurgent'' is a fact in our history books. Historically, non uniformed combatants have been dealt with in an equally harsh manner. Now, if my post came across as a defence of the DR it was not. it was, a historical analysis of events purtaining to non uniformed combatants. Look at Massena's forces and the way they acted in 1808 against the spanish guerilla's!! Look at the way the napoleonic regime acted with utter ruthlessness to its conquered peoples. In the Franco/ prussian war the French killed thousands of germans and, forced the prussians to deploy 120,000 troops to guard their communications and supply lines. Indeed, Bismarck said of these non uniformed combatants ''they are not soldiers and, we are beating them down mercilessly and, as murderes''
Even Lt Gen Montgomery in 1921 when in charge of fighting the Irish Guerilla's said his whole effort and time was put into defeating the guerilla's. ''It never bothered me (He wrote) how many homes were burnt down and anyone who interferes with an officer or troop will be shot''
My point was not a defence of the DR but, showing that they saw the Maquis a force that was illegal in the circumstances and, they also purpotrated vicious acts upon German soldiers. This is what I meant after all the research that events snowballed Dickmann acted emotionally as it was a friend who was kidnapped and, failed to qualify the intelligence he was given. The fact that the village was filled with more people than normal is, sadly one of those fatefull events that always conspire in tradgic circunmstances like this. It was also filled with by and large people who had no love for the Maquis as many French hated them also. This is what I meant by historically and, historically civillians bearing arms have been summarily executed.
This is why I mentioned that Oradour is more complex than just a wanton act of violence with no reason. That does not mean that it was right of course not, but, that should not allow us to ignore what really happened and, have it that the germans were bad and the allies were good.
Mitch
Blowtorch
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Rob
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I think Louis has raised an interesting point here. Imagine you are in a unit of some sort in the Normandy countryside and you are ordered into a village, where,whether spontaneous or on direct orders, mass murder occurs. Imagine then that you yourself did not fire a shot, throw a grenda or set light to anything...are you equally guilty through association???
The Das Reich obviously had murdering filth among their number, to kill innocent civvies like that is just as sickening as the death camps and is despicable as it is repulsive, its a shadow over final allied victory that so many of these type of Nazi scum got away to South America and parts of Europe where no doubt to this day some live happy lives. As I said earlier, if these six are guilty and they won't hang them then let them spend their final days in prison and in solitary, they deserve no better. Whilst I'm sure acts of murder took place on both sides during WW2 we can be very proud of our Allied troops who did not in general, or with great frequency, or at the drop of a hat murder innocent people including many children, its what put our boys above some of the Dog mess that infested some parts of the German army/Luftwaffe.
Rob
The Das Reich obviously had murdering filth among their number, to kill innocent civvies like that is just as sickening as the death camps and is despicable as it is repulsive, its a shadow over final allied victory that so many of these type of Nazi scum got away to South America and parts of Europe where no doubt to this day some live happy lives. As I said earlier, if these six are guilty and they won't hang them then let them spend their final days in prison and in solitary, they deserve no better. Whilst I'm sure acts of murder took place on both sides during WW2 we can be very proud of our Allied troops who did not in general, or with great frequency, or at the drop of a hat murder innocent people including many children, its what put our boys above some of the Dog mess that infested some parts of the German army/Luftwaffe.
Rob
Mitch
Max Hastings and, the divisional histories of the DR show that Dickmann was to be courts-martialled.
I assume he was to face a court martial; that is very different to actually being court-martialled. I assume there would be a hearing??? Also, I wonder if this sudden change of heart by the SS to massacring civilians had anything to do with the fact that a couple of hundred thousand Allied troops had just landed in Normandy :rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
This is what I meant after all the research that events snowballed Dickmann acted emotionally as it was a friend who was kidnapped and, failed to qualify the intelligence he was given.
Given the track record of SS units I do not think this snowballed I think it was their modus operandi. After all seperating women and children from men - where did they put that to effect before??? :rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
This is why I mentioned that Oradour is more complex than just a wanton act of violence with no reason.
Definition of reason - a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. How does a soldier being kidnapped cause, justify or explain killing 205 kids at close range with bullets, grenades and setting them on fire. :rolleyes2::rolleyes2: This went on for hours and days so was not some impulsive reaction but a systematic massacre.
It is plain to me from your posts on here that you hold the SS in some regard but please, the tone and language of your posts on this thread appear to be an attempt to somehow justify or excuse their actions.
I am sure others will draw their own conclusions
Gazza
Max Hastings and, the divisional histories of the DR show that Dickmann was to be courts-martialled.
I assume he was to face a court martial; that is very different to actually being court-martialled. I assume there would be a hearing??? Also, I wonder if this sudden change of heart by the SS to massacring civilians had anything to do with the fact that a couple of hundred thousand Allied troops had just landed in Normandy :rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
This is what I meant after all the research that events snowballed Dickmann acted emotionally as it was a friend who was kidnapped and, failed to qualify the intelligence he was given.
Given the track record of SS units I do not think this snowballed I think it was their modus operandi. After all seperating women and children from men - where did they put that to effect before??? :rolleyes2::rolleyes2:
This is why I mentioned that Oradour is more complex than just a wanton act of violence with no reason.
Definition of reason - a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. How does a soldier being kidnapped cause, justify or explain killing 205 kids at close range with bullets, grenades and setting them on fire. :rolleyes2::rolleyes2: This went on for hours and days so was not some impulsive reaction but a systematic massacre.
It is plain to me from your posts on here that you hold the SS in some regard but please, the tone and language of your posts on this thread appear to be an attempt to somehow justify or excuse their actions.
I am sure others will draw their own conclusions
Gazza
Mitch
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Rob...
Thats exactly what the 1948 legislation enacted by the french did. As they knew French were involved in the massacre at Oradour. Article 3 stated a new offence of ''collective responsibility'' If you were their you were guilty. One can see why they enacted it but, it fails to defend properly when necessary. This occured with german tankers who passed nearby the Malmedy action. Because they drove past they were guilty by association
Mitch
Thats exactly what the 1948 legislation enacted by the french did. As they knew French were involved in the massacre at Oradour. Article 3 stated a new offence of ''collective responsibility'' If you were their you were guilty. One can see why they enacted it but, it fails to defend properly when necessary. This occured with german tankers who passed nearby the Malmedy action. Because they drove past they were guilty by association
Mitch