Overlooked: German contributions at Quatre Bras and Waterloo (2 Viewers)

[Mitch]

When I read historical accounts its always interesting to see where the author is coming from as many so called experts are not only wanting a book published but, also would like to add something which, has fact at its heart but, over-embelish it. I have read many accounts of Waterloo and, have not read an account where any author English or other who states we were 'saved' from defeat by the other forces their at the time. As I mentioned, everything I have been taught and read suggests support to the comment by Rob etc

I did state that others assisted in the overall victory but, my comments were aimed specifically at the connotation that we were (The English troops) all over and about to lose was incorrect in everything I have read and, researched at a variety of sources
Mitch

 

[maloyalo]

Yes I read that too,but their seemed to be some ambiguity about it, so I use the term reserve 'Guard' in a generic way.

Rob

Yes, in English sources at least there was a long term question about which units of the French Imperial Guard actually made the charge. The accounts of some English eyewitnesses, which you would normally give great credibility, in fact greatly over-estimated the number of the Imperial Guards attacking, which has contributed to the confusion somewhat.

It is fairly well established now though, which battalions where in the attacking columns, and that there were at least two columns, one composed of Grenadiers (which the English Guards engaged) and another composed of Chasseurs, which initially caused the English guards to fall back in some confusion. This second French Column of Chasseurs was primarily engaged by Adams British Light Brigade, particularly the 52nd Light.

But other troops and especially batteries were firing into the French Guard troops as well. Due to the lie of the land and form of Wellingtons line at this point it was similar to walking into a ampitheatre sounding you on a gentle slope. It was a massacre. That the Imperial Guard got as far as they did, and actually to close engagement is clear evidence of their great fighting quality.

 

[Rob]

Yes, in English sources at least there was a long term question about which units of the French Imperial Guard actually made the charge. The accounts of some English eyewitnesses, which you would normally give great credibility, in fact greatly over-estimated the number of the Imperial Guards attacking, which has contributed to the confusion somewhat.

It is fairly well established now though, which battalions where in the attacking columns, and that there were at least two columns, one composed of Grenadiers (which the English Guards engaged) and another composed of Chasseurs, which initially caused the English guards to fall back in some confusion. This second French Column of Chasseurs was primarily engaged by Adams British Light Brigade, particularly the 52nd Light.

But other troops and especially batteries were firing into the French Guard troops as well. Due to the lie of the land and form of Wellingtons line at this point it was similar to walking into a ampitheatre sounding you on a gentle slope. It was a massacre. That the Imperial Guard got as far as they did, and actually to close engagement is clear evidence of their great fighting quality.

Yes their skill and bravery cannot be doubted. I've stood atop the monument at Waterloo and looked at the route they took,as you say it must have been a massacre, and however gallant they looked as they marched towards the Brits they presented a target that couldn't be missed, add the British Army rifle skill and it was (as you said) pretty doomed.

Rob

 

[maloyalo]

It's good to remember a few things about Wellington's German troops.

- They were from different countries & principalities and had no overall German commander, nor any German general in high command. Hence they no real representation at headquarters to represent their case collectively or record their contributions after the action. But they were something distinct in that they nearly were from the same region of northern germany, were linked by numerous cultural and political ties, and had a historic close connection to Britain. It also goes without saying, that they had practically no say in how they were going to be used.

- Most of the German infantry troops, that is the Hanoverians and KGL were uniformed almost identically as the British. Over any distance, or at any distance at all, once the noise of battle began, observers/eyewitnesses could easily mistake the Germans for British.

-

 

[aujj65]

It's good to remember a few things about Wellington's German troops.

- They were from different countries & principalities and had no overall German commander, nor any German general in high command. Hence they no real representation at headquarters to represent their case collectively or record their contributions after the action. But they were something distinct in that they nearly were from the same region of northern germany, were linked by numerous cultural and political ties, and had a historic close connection to Britain. It also goes without saying, that they had practically no say in how they were going to be used.
- Most of the German infantry troops, that is the Hanoverians and KGL were uniformed almost identically as the British. Over any distance, or at any distance at all, once the noise of battle began, observers/eyewitnesses could easily mistake the Germans for British.

-

A bit like the Confederation of the Rhine troops that fought for the French earlier on in the Napoleonic Wars, I bet they didn’t have a lot of say in the matter either.

Remember there was Prince Willem of Orange and Lieutenant General Prince Frederich, Duke of Brunswick that represented the Allied troops of King’s German Legion, Hanoverians, Brunswickers, Belgians, Dutch and Nassauers.

At the end of the day, I don’t think any one really underestimates the commitment that they all made. If one is collecting a Waterloo themed battle then all the above have to be represented, I used to when I wargamed this period many years ago.

Good thread though.

Jeff

 

[theBaron]

I recommend Hofschroer's books, they're well-written and detailed without being too much, and provide a good insight into the operations of the allied German units in the Waterloo campaign.

He also wrote some of the Osprey titles in Napoleonic section of the Men-at-Arms series.

Prost!
Brad

 

[maloyalo]

Well guys, I guess I have two books to read! I just found them on Goggle books but there is no preview. Sounds very interesting though.

Yes, the Confederation of the Rhine is an exact example of the same thing. Though they even get less credit, probably because they where on the losing side. The did pull off some amazing feats worthy of remembering, such as the actions at the Battle of the Berezina, done by the Baden and Berg troops.

I suppose my supposition about the German contribution is only part of a larger experiment in viewing the battle & perhaps history in general. In this thread I ask a question really. As english speakers and sharing many cultural elements it you can reduce it to: 'Wellington won, Napoleon lost.. I know all we need to know about the battle.'

Is that true though ? Or are there things small or large that we simply do not see, and thereby rob us of real understanding. An understanding we do not know enough to even miss. It's mainly an academic exercise, in the discipline called history, but a practical ramification can't be ruled out entirely. As we walk into problem after problem trying to militarily handle different cultures, what problems reside in us now, resultant upon our lack of understanding of each other. I am talking here about just a piece of history that may need correcting, but it is more the approach that may be important in the long run. I might put it as, as a beginning question everything.

Just an aside on 'critical turning points', an idea that surfaced earlier.

In the Waterloo campaign I don't really know if there are true critical points upon which the battle hinges. It reminds me of a huge battle of black and red ants. Looking at all the little individual combats, can you point to one and say the result of this determined the battle. I suspect, in most cases, if you altered to result, it would have no material effect.

Wellington is said to have stated the Battle of Waterloo hinged on the closing of the gate at Hougemont.

The author Victor Hugo said it hinged on a drop of rain more or less.

Some think it was the repulse of the French Imperial Guard.

Really, many events if reversed could lead one to believe it critical. Why not then point to the Nassauers who drove off the French cavalry probing into Quartre Bras the night of the 15th ? The French occupying it on the night of the 15th is a good candidate for having an actual effect on the battles. But I am not saying this is 'the point'. It is only an example of considering more then is typically served to you.

 

[trooper]

Recommend you also take a look at "Waterloo- New perspectives" by Hamilton/Williams. This goes into many of the lesser publicised sections of the battle and analyises them in greater depth than heretofore.