Panzer Proportions (1 Viewer)

[katana]

Proper proportions are as important in armor models as it is in figures. A scene with figures and armor must have a proper size and proportional relationships to be realistic. The first photo shows proper proportions. The top of the Panzerwaffe figures head is no higher than the Panthers deck.

The second photo shows a problem with proportion. The Panthers deck is too low for the 1/29 scale of the vehicle and the Panzerwaffes head is over the deck; which is unrealistic. The Honor Bound Panther A is 1/30 scale and has good proportions and the Figarti Panther G is disproportionate. The deck should be almost the same height for both Panthers.

The third photo shows the size of a typical Panzerwaffe in relation to his Panther during WWII.

Length, width and height of a vehicle may be correct for the scale; but distortions can occur causing disproportion. Sometimes the width and length are correct; but the height is wrong. I have a Jagdpanzer IV L 70 that has correct length and width; but the height is much higher than it should be. Adjacent in scale figures look too short as a result. The roof should be 61 mm high and it measures 71 mm.

 

[chemiebay]

That happens because every brand ,with the exception of FL, was trying to follow KnC size for their figures. I still think my Figartis Calliope and Panther are probably the best AFV from my whole collection...about the figures that came with them are just useless since they do not match in scale.

 

[uksubs]

View attachment 189821View attachment 189822View attachment 189823

Proper proportions are as important in armor models as it is in figures. A scene with figures and armor must have a proper size and proportional relationships to be realistic. The first photo shows proper proportions. The top of the Panzerwaffe figures head is no higher than the Panthers deck.

The second photo shows a problem with proportion. The Panthers deck is too low for the 1/29 scale of the vehicle and the Panzerwaffes head is over the deck; which is unrealistic. The Honor Bound Panther A is 1/30 scale and has good proportions and the Figarti Panther G is disproportionate. The deck should be almost the same height for both Panthers.

The third photo shows the size of a typical Panzerwaffe in relation to his Panther during WWII.

Length, width and height of a vehicle may be correct for the scale; but distortions can occur causing disproportion. Sometimes the width and length are correct; but the height is wrong. I have a Jagdpanzer IV L 70 that has correct length and width; but the height is much higher than it should be. Adjacent in scale figures look too short as a result. The roof should be 61 mm high and it measures 71 mm.

The first thing that stands out to me is the figures are too big for the tank

 

[Baymax]

None of those figures should be with those Tanks far to big and make the tanks look a lot smaller in scale than they are. The panther although a medium classed tank was very large.

 

[uksubs]

None of those figures should be with those Tanks far to big and make the tanks look a lot smaller in scale than they are. The panther although a medium classed tank was very large.

Agree figures look to big :redface2:

 

[katana]

None of those figures should be with those Tanks far to big and make the tanks look a lot smaller in scale than they are. The panther although a medium classed tank was very large.

The reality is different from what you think per this photo. The soldiers head is even with the 74 inch high deck of the Panther.The Panther A in the photo, is 29' long, 10'9" wide and 9'10" high. The Tank-Encyclopedia.com website is a good place to learn everything you may wish to know about armor.

The Panzerwaffe figure next to the models is there for reference; to show where a figures head should and should not be in relation to the Panther deck. The figure came with the Figarti Panther G. Obviously Figarti did not consider the figure size incorrect. A 6'2" man would stand as tall as the model figure or the soldier in the photo.

 

[Baymax]

I think reality needs to be left at the door. I have read your posts and in most you are stating that a figure above the deck heights is not correct yet here you are stating that its fine.

This shows that using humans as any indicator of tank scale is pointless because humans are all shapes and sizes. The important point is that tanks which are not anything other than a concrete measurement as is equipment should be correct.

to say as you are figures are placed to show where they should be against a tank is pointless because human height changes. That is not a concrete or provable fact. The deck height is.

For every single picture that you could place with a human below the deck height one could be sourced with them above. Even your own pictures of tank crew show some above, some level, and some below.

You cannot even use average height for a historical period as its only an indicator not a fact

 

[uksubs]

I think reality needs to be left at the door. I have read your posts and in most you are stating that a figure above the deck heights is not correct yet here you are stating that its fine.

This shows that using humans as any indicator of tank scale is pointless because humans are all shapes and sizes. The important point is that tanks which are not anything other than a concrete measurement as is equipment should be correct.

to say as you are figures are placed to show where they should be against a tank is pointless because human height changes. That is not a concrete or provable fact. The deck height is.

For every single picture that you could place with a human below the deck height one could be sourced with them above. Even your own pictures of tank crew show some above, some level, and some below.

You cannot even use average height for a historical period as its only an indicator not a fact

The voice of reason :salute::

 

[katana]

I think reality needs to be left at the door. I have read your posts and in most you are stating that a figure above the deck heights is not correct yet here you are stating that its fine.

This shows that using humans as any indicator of tank scale is pointless because humans are all shapes and sizes. The important point is that tanks which are not anything other than a concrete measurement as is equipment should be correct.

to say as you are figures are placed to show where they should be against a tank is pointless because human height changes. That is not a concrete or provable fact. The deck height is.

For every single picture that you could place with a human below the deck height one could be sourced with them above. Even your own pictures of tank crew show some above, some level, and some below.

You cannot even use average height for a historical period as its only an indicator not a fact

The Figarti figure is 67mm tall and is used as a size reference. The HB and Figarti figures came with the respective Panthers. The point being made is that both Panthers have problems with proportion. The Figarti deck height is 59 mm. The Honor Bound deck height is 67 mm. The correct deck height for a 1/30 scale Panther is 63 mm. One is too high and one is too low. Think of the reference figure as a 67 mm high marker, indicating the correct deck height for 1/30 scale Panthers.

 

[Baymax]

The Figarti figure is 67mm tall and is used as a size reference. The HB and Figarti figures came with the respective Panthers. The point being made is that both Panthers have problems with proportion. The Figarti deck height is 59 mm. The Honor Bound deck height is 67 mm. The correct deck height for a 1/30 scale Panther is 63 mm. One is too high and one is too low. Think of the reference figure as a 67 mm high marker, indicating the correct deck height for 1/30 scale Panthers.

I can not understand why your post reply would have stated rude comments that required removal? I am fine with the measurements posted so, why not just state the measurements of the tanks and say ''I measured this and its X''

With respect the posts are interesting but, you made the issue harder as I mentioned in my last reply by discussing and continuing with the human over deck height issue which does not matter in terms of what I mentioned.

One point how are you measuring your deck height? from what point base of road wheel or, with tracks? ruler, electronic calliper etc I have seen other measurements regarding the Panther G so, it would be helpful to know how your measuring g them and take into account any fallibility

 

[katana]

The comment was not rude it was a suggestion and a question based upon observation.

I have posted the measurements of the Figarti Panther G before. The deck height was measured with a digital caliper with a range of 155 mm made by Scherr. The measurments are accurate to .5 mm and clearly show the scale of the Figarti Panther G is 1/29. Polystone shrinks while curing; so you usually find unintended scale errors are under size. Over size errors can be caused by over compensating for shrinkage in the mold dimensions. The shift of a full scale in the range of 1/32 to 1/28 requires a +/- 3mm deviation. I average three dimensions H+L+W/3; to determine scale, to assure accuracy. Overall length measurements are problematic because barrel length can vary considerably between manufacturers. Verification of the accuracy of a models scale depends upon accurate dimensions for the original armor. Many sources can contain errors in one or more dimensions. I always check multiple sources to validate accuracy. The most accurate source I have found for German Panzer data is the Osprey New Vanguard Armor series. Hilary Doyle, one of the three authors, directly measured the Panzers in museums. Tanks-Encyclopedia.Com is als relativly accurat; but I have found some errors.

I was more tollerant of scale errors when polystone Panzer models cost $100-$200 USD. Today with the cost at $200-$300 USD I am less forgiving in the areas of accuracy, detail and quality.
I had intended to purchase a Figarti Panzer IV H at $249 USD. Upon close inspection I found the detail was soft, screws holding on the Schurtzen brackets were left exposed and detracted from the appearance and it was over size. I bought a 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV for $45 USD and discovered that it was oversize too; it measures 1/30 and the Figarti was 1/29 as Hunter Rose has verified. The Schurtzen attachment was far superior to the Figarti. Plus they could be removed and reinstalled; which I did when I repainted and detailed the model. I encourage anyone that wants a Panzer IV H to work with the First Legion figures; to try out the 21st Century Cold Steel model!

 

[Hunter Rose]

I average three dimensions H+L+W/3; to determine scale, to assure accuracy.

I bought a 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV for $45 USD and discovered that it was oversize too; it measures 1/30 and the Figarti was 1/29 as Hunter Rose has verified.

The first line makes no sense and is one of the stranger things I have read. That is not how you determine scale. By your method a model could be too tall in height and too small in width and yet yet the errors could cancel each other out. This is actually illuminating and may be how you derive some of these stranger pronouncements regarding scale.

And please don't refer to me as verifying any of your scale pronouncements.

I've been pretty clear and stated the 21st Century King Tiger is 1/32 and the Figarti Panther is 1/30.

 

[Hunter Rose]

Here's the measurements I have for the Figarti Panther G. Actual dimensions are taken from the Spielberger Panther book and the Jentz Panzer Tracts for the Ausf G. All measurement are in mm.

This is why I say the Figarti Panther is 1/30.

Panther Ausf G

Deck Height
Actual - 1860
Model - 61
Scale - 1/30.49

Height to top of Cupola
Actual - 3100
Model - 102
Scale - 1/30.39

Width
Actual - 3270
Model - 109
Scale - 1/30

Firing Height
Actual - 2305
Model - 77
Scale - 1/29.93

Length of hull
Actual - 6866
Model - 227
Scale - 1/30.25

Ground Clearance
Actual - 540
Model - 18
Scale - 1/30

Track Width
Actual - 660
Model - 22
Scale - 1/30

Overall Length w/ gun
Actual - 8860
Model - 292
Scale - 1/30.34

 

[maddadicus]

The first line makes no sense and is one of the stranger things I have read. That is not how you determine scale. By your method a model could be too tall in height and too small in width and yet yet the errors could cancel each other out. This is actually illuminating and may be how you derive some of these stranger pronouncements regarding scale.

And please don't refer to me as verifying any of your scale pronouncements.

I've been pretty clear and stated the 21st Century King Tiger is 1/32 and the Figarti Panther is 1/30.

It is pretty easy to go online and find free scale conversion programs. When I was making 25 mm ships, I found such a program that allowed me to punch in the scale required, and then fill in the actual, real measurements of what I wished to model. Out came the actual length/width,height in inches that I would need to duplicate. Also used it in the past to verify what the dimensions ought be for my K/C, Figarti, or CS vehicles..^&confuseMichael

 

[katana]

Here's the measurements I have for the Figarti Panther G. Actual dimensions are taken from the Spielberger Panther book and the Jentz Panzer Tracts for the Ausf G. All measurement are in mm.

This is why I say the Figarti Panther is 1/30.

Panther Ausf G

Deck Height
Actual - 1860
Model - 61
Scale - 1/30.49

Height to top of Cupola
Actual - 3100
Model - 102
Scale - 1/30.39

Width
Actual - 3270
Model - 109
Scale - 1/30

Firing Height
Actual - 2305
Model - 77
Scale - 1/29.93

Length of hull
Actual - 6866
Model - 227
Scale - 1/30.25

Ground Clearance
Actual - 540
Model - 18
Scale - 1/30

Track Width
Actual - 660
Model - 22
Scale - 1/30

Overall Length w/ gun
Actual - 8860
Model - 292
Scale - 1/30.34

Thank you for the data.

I will check the data for accuracy. You did say you varified the over scale size of the Figarti Panzer IV in a prior post. I did not say you validated any of my data. You are obviously conflating two different conversations about Figarti scale deviations. I am dissapointed you are unaware of the statistical methoud of averaging data to determine a mean. Your lack of knowledge does not invalidate the technique.

You contend that the 21st Century Cold Steel King Tiger is 1/32 scale in spite of data and photos I provided that prove otherwise. What do you base your analysis on. Do you you have this model? Have you measured it and are your measurements different than the ones I provided? Please post your data. I said in a prior post that the photos I provided per your request should be sufficient to convince an objective observer of the scale of the King Tiger. The photo with the 60 mm figure is significant evidence of the 1/30 scale of the model. Can you provide photos proving otherwise?
A photo with a 54 mm figure next to the 21st Century King Tiger would be an objective test and prove you contension. I presume you may not have this model in your collection since other wise you could have measured it and realized your contention is invalid. The model is available on Ebay; if you are interested.

I suppose that I could save you the trouble and expense by posting a photo
with both a 54 mm and a 60 mm figure side by side with the King Tiger; that should resolve this argument. Do you agree?

Thank you for a lively debate on this contentious issue. I enjoy debate and the opportunity to improve my skills. I will post the photo tomorrow.

 

[katana]

The first line makes no sense and is one of the stranger things I have read. That is not how you determine scale. By your method a model could be too tall in height and too small in width and yet yet the errors could cancel each other out. This is actually illuminating and may be how you derive some of these stranger pronouncements regarding scale.

And please don't refer to me as verifying any of your scale pronouncements.

I've been pretty clear and stated the 21st Century King Tiger is 1/32 and the Figarti Panther is 1/30.

The photos should prove without doubt that the 21st Century Cold Steel King Tiger is 1/30 scale. The figure on the left is 60 mm -1/30 scale. The figure on the right is 54 mm-1/32 scale.

Which figure is most like the figures in the WWII photo in terms of size in relation to the King Tiger?

 

[Baymax]

The comment was not rude it was a suggestion and a question based upon observation.

I have posted the measurements of the Figarti Panther G before. The deck height was measured with a digital caliper with a range of 155 mm made by Scherr. The measurments are accurate to .5 mm and clearly show the scale of the Figarti Panther G is 1/29. Polystone shrinks while curing; so you usually find unintended scale errors are under size. Over size errors can be caused by over compensating for shrinkage in the mold dimensions. The shift of a full scale in the range of 1/32 to 1/28 requires a +/- 3mm deviation. I average three dimensions H+L+W/3; to determine scale, to assure accuracy. Overall length measurements are problematic because barrel length can vary considerably between manufacturers. Verification of the accuracy of a models scale depends upon accurate dimensions for the original armor. Many sources can contain errors in one or more dimensions. I always check multiple sources to validate accuracy. The most accurate source I have found for German Panzer data is the Osprey New Vanguard Armor series. Hilary Doyle, one of the three authors, directly measured the Panzers in museums. Tanks-Encyclopedia.Com is als relativly accurat; but I have found some errors.

I was more tollerant of scale errors when polystone Panzer models cost $100-$200 USD. Today with the cost at $200-$300 USD I am less forgiving in the areas of accuracy, detail and quality.
I had intended to purchase a Figarti Panzer IV H at $249 USD. Upon close inspection I found the detail was soft, screws holding on the Schurtzen brackets were left exposed and detracted from the appearance and it was over size. I bought a 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV for $45 USD and discovered that it was oversize too; it measures 1/30 and the Figarti was 1/29 as Hunter Rose has verified. The Schurtzen attachment was far superior to the Figarti. Plus they could be removed and reinstalled; which I did when I repainted and detailed the model. I encourage anyone that wants a Panzer IV H to work with the First Legion figures; to try out the 21st Century Cold Steel model!

You do realise that while you are going on about Figarti and their releases which I have nearly all and agree things like the Allied Shermans and some of their German armour are over scaled for their title they all fall under 30th scale and are mostly 29 or 29.5 which is close but, still gives a size difference which is noticeable.

TCS have had massive issues with scale throughout their production and king and country sway from 28th 27th and sometimes 30th scale. Can you start addressing some of these manufacturers as I would be interested in hearing your views on these irregularities which are more frequent than Figarti who were in terms of armour relatively consistent.

 

[katana]

Here's the measurements I have for the Figarti Panther G. Actual dimensions are taken from the Spielberger Panther book and the Jentz Panzer Tracts for the Ausf G. All measurement are in mm.

This is why I say the Figarti Panther is 1/30.

Panther Ausf G

Deck Height
Actual - 1860
Model - 61
Scale - 1/30.49

Height to top of Cupola
Actual - 3100
Model - 102
Scale - 1/30.39

Width
Actual - 3270
Model - 109
Scale - 1/30

Firing Height
Actual - 2305
Model - 77
Scale - 1/29.93

Length of hull
Actual - 6866
Model - 227
Scale - 1/30.25

Ground Clearance
Actual - 540
Model - 18
Scale - 1/30

Track Width
Actual - 660
Model - 22
Scale - 1/30

Overall Length w/ gun
Actual - 8860
Model - 292
Scale - 1/30.34

Thank you again for the data. I have identified what the problems are and why we disagree as to the correct scale of the Figarti Panther G. I have found four errors; two are actual size errors and two are measurement errors.

1. The actual height cited at 3100 mm should be 2990 mm. 2990/102=29.31

2. The model measurement 227 mm cited is too short. The correct length is 235 mm. 6866/235=29.2

3. The overall length cited at 8860 mm should be 8660 mm per Doyle & Zaloga et. al.

4. The overall length model measurement 292 mm is too short. The correct length is 235 mm a difference of 25 mm. 8660/317=27.3.

I agree with your other data and measurements.

The height and length are 1/29.31 and 1/27.3 respectively, width is 1/30.4. The average is 29.3+27.2+30.4/=29 or 1/29 scale.

Other forum members have confirmed that Figarti's late models i.e. Panther G, M26 and the Panzer IV have been over scale. I wonder if the KV-1, SU-85 and SU-100 are also over scale. Figarti may have been trying to improve size compatibility with K&C, TCS and TG by increasing scale size to 1/29. I do know the T34-85 is 1/30; so the shift happened since that model was made.

 

[Hunter Rose]

I am dissapointed you are unaware of the statistical methoud of averaging data to determine a mean. Your lack of knowledge does not invalidate the technique.

The average is 29.3+27.2+30.4/=29 or 1/29 scale.

Katana,

Wow, again with the condescension! Funny, since again your position that the average of the scale of the three dimensions gives an accurate overall scale is asinine.

You truly do not see a problem with your method above? Well, I will point it out to you. The answer you derive is meaningless.

For example, if the scales you got were 26.3, 27.2, and 33.4, you'd get the same answer. 26.3 + 27.2 +33.4 = 86.9, 86.9/3 = 28.97 or 1/29 scale. So to you I suppose a model that was 1/26 in one dimension, 1/27 in another dimension, and 1/33 in the third dimension is a perfectly scaled 1/30 model!

This is what I am talking about, you pretend to be some sort of scale and mathematical expert but you don't see simple logical errors with your line of reasoning.

This carries over to my next point where you point out my "errors" below. My responses are in bold.

Thank you again for the data. I have identified what the problems are and why we disagree as to the correct scale of the Figarti Panther G. I have found four errors; two are actual size errors and two are measurement errors.

1. The actual height cited at 3100 mm should be 2990 mm. 2990/102=29.31 The 3100 mm height is per Jentz/Panzertracts and includes the cupola ring. I've seen your height published in other sources. We'll disagree for now.

2. The model measurement 227 mm cited is too short. The correct length is 235 mm. 6866/235=29.2 Sorry man, your lack of Panzer knowledge is showing again. You measured the model to the tip of the engine exhausts. That is incorrect. The Germans excluded add-on accessories like stowage bins, tools, and exhausts when publishing official Panzer measurements.

3. The overall length cited at 8860 mm should be 8660 mm per Doyle & Zaloga et. al. Thanks, but I'll take the measurements of Jentz/Doyle and Panzertracts over Zaloga for accuracy.

4. The overall length model measurement 292 mm is too short. The correct length is 235 mm a difference of 25 mm. 8660/317=27.3. Again, you measured wrong because of your lack of knowledge on how these measurements were derived.

I agree with your other data and measurements. Thanks.

So you agree with the majority of my measurements. The length ones your disagree with are because you don't know what measuring points you should be using on the tank.

So we have a Figarti Panther that is 1/30 scale in overall length, width, firing height, hull length, deck height, ground clearance, and track width. It's height is arguably between 1/29.3 and 1/30 (in actuality, I suspect any error is confined to the cupola itself, and not the turret height).

I'd call that a decently accurate 1/30 scale model!!!


As for your posting pictures of tanks/figures and historical photos, I could care less. I'll stick to taking measurements of the tanks themselves since these figures are absolute. And I am highly suspicious of your measurements of the King TIger, since I suspect your made the same mistakes in measuring that you did on the Panther. Also, the 21st Century King Tiger is obviously smaller in height, width, and length than the 1/30 Figarti Panther, so it's pretty obvious it's not a 1/30 model.

I await your next enlightening revelation regarding scale.

Cheers.

 

[4th Hussar]

OMG can I quit banging my head against the tree?{sm2}