Panzer Proportions (2 Viewers)

[Hunter Rose]

OMG can I quit banging my head against the tree?{sm2}

You should stop. You could hurt yourself that way.

 

[katana]

Hunter Rose; The average of the three dimensions is an approximation; not an absolute number. Do you tell someone that their model is X=10, Y=15 and Z=12 or do you average the three ratios into one approximation X+Y+Z=12.3 Much more convienent don't you think.

What is the absolute value of Pi? 3.141- continue to infinity. The answer is no one yet knows; yet Pi is used as a factor in many equations without the absolute value being known.

Lets conduct an experiment. A TCS King Tiger has the following scale ratios: Length Overall 1/29, Width 1/26 and Height 1/27. What scale would you consider this model and how would you derive it? The scale ratios are real based upon a real polystone model.

I would really like to know how you get that kind of variance with a polystone model. Polystyrene and Die Cast ZAMAC are far more accurate dimensionaly. I expect its the difference between soft and hard tooling. Oops; there I go with my train of conciousness thinking again!

The 2990 mm height of a King Tiger is from Hilary Doyle who I cited. I trust Doyle's data because he actually measured the Panzers and did not use historical references; many of which are inaccurate.

The overall length measurement of 8860 mm is cited twice in the refererences. The 8660 measurement is cited four times in the refererences; which you choose to use is a judgement call. I went with the value with the most most cites.

The overall length model measurement is off by 25 mm. The exhausts and stowage boxes are less than half that error. Were I to accept your argument for the error you would still have to find an excuse for the other 12.5 mm. A large error at 1/29 scale!

I find WWII photos very educational in determining many details associated with Armor. The size relationship of troops and tanks is important to accurate modeling and is often inaccuratly portrayed by the Toy Soldier manufacturers. Thanks again for a good debate.

 

[Hunter Rose]

If you still don't see an issue with average 3 dimensions to proclaim a scale after I laid out the problem for you and gave an example I can't help you.

We'll just agree to disagree, as I think you live in your own world where the rules of mathematics are not hard and fast for you. Same goes for your ideas on scale. There's really no more use in debating as its a waste of my time.

Good luck to you and rock on with that 21st Centruy King Tiger.

 

[katana]

The human male varies in height from 5 feet to 7 feet at the extreams. The average human male height today is 5'9". I do not think this is a meaningless number. Think of average dimensional summation as a low pass filter smoothing the extreams to a managable bell curve with the mean at the apex.

If as you contend, the 21st century Cold Steel King Tiger is 1/32 scale than 60mm tall figures must defacto be 1/32 scale. First Legion and W. Britains maintain otherwise; contending their figures are 1/30 scale. The contensions cannot both be correct.

The 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV and Stug IV also measure 1/30 scale and are also size compatable with 60mm figures as I have demonstrated with previously posted photos. I did a size comparison between the Figarti, 21st Century and First Legion Panzer IV models. The measured scales are Figarti 1/29, 21st Century 1/30 and First Legion 1/31. The three Panzer IV models are size compatable with 60mm figures.

The question is are the First Legion and W. Britains 1/32 or 1/30. What do you think ?

 

[Baymax]

The human male varies in height from 5 feet to 7 feet at the extreams. The average human male height today is 5'9". I do not think this is a meaningless number. Think of average dimensional summation as a low pass filter smoothing the extreams to a managable bell curve with the mean at the apex.

If as you contend, the 21st century Cold Steel King Tiger is 1/32 scale than 60mm tall figures must defacto be 1/32 scale. First Legion and W. Britains maintain otherwise; contending their figures are 1/30 scale. The contensions cannot both be correct.

The 21st Century Cold Steel Panzer IV and Stug IV also measure 1/30 scale and are also size compatable with 60mm figures as I have demonstrated with previously posted photos. I did a size comparison between the Figarti, 21st Century and First Legion Panzer IV models. The measured scales are Figarti 1/29, 21st Century 1/30 and First Legion 1/31. The three Panzer IV models are size compatable with 60mm figures.

The question is are the First Legion and W. Britains 1/32 or 1/30. What do you think ?

Which First Leggion are you saying are 1/31st. Not one First Legion vehicle I have breaches 1/30th to the extent one can state they are a different scale

Weapons and equipment are all 30th scale so where do you get they are 1/32nd scale. placed next to 32nd scale plastic figures which plastic guys on forums etc have measured and discussed to death they are not even remotely the same. Britain's have made over the years two scales of figures and still do. It has been explained to you by Ken as I just finished reading the thread that he has sculpted figures at 30th scale for the newer WWII.

Only a small number of items in the new WWII scale have filtered through and as yet none of the vehicles planned so, its impractical and I would say incorrect to even say they are 32nd scale. The figures certainly are not 32nd scale that have been recently released

Why use today's average height when discussing WWII. German troops were not an average of that during WWII or not the things I have seen. In the first three years of the war and after that actually German height was higher than that average and, in elite units like GD, and PL for the Heer as well as the SS units LAH, DR, HJ was much higher.

It is why deck height breach is a waste of time when discussing figures and scale because its equally as valid for a figure or figures to breach deck heights. something you have consistently stated as incorrect.

 

[Hunter Rose]

Katana, you approach scale completely backwards.

For a first step, the figure height is irrelevant to the scale of a tank. A tank has set in stone measureements. You get the scale of the tank first, in this case 1/30.

Then you worry about scale of a figure. I would measure equipment which again has concrete dimensions. In the case of FL the equipment scales at 1/30. So a FL figure should represent a 1/30 soldier.

Only last do you measure the figure and and then multiply by 30. This then tells you the height of the miniature figure In real life. It doesn't matter if a FL figure is slightly taller than 60 mm and stands above the deck of a 1/30 Figarti Panther or Tiger. That just means the figure represents someone 6'3" in real life, like the FL Waffen SS do. Hat is perfectly realistic.

 

[katana]

Which First Leggion are you saying are 1/31st. Not one First Legion vehicle I have breaches 1/30th to the extent one can state they are a different scale

Weapons and equipment are all 30th scale so where do you get they are 1/32nd scale. placed next to 32nd scale plastic figures which plastic guys on forums etc have measured and discussed to death they are not even remotely the same. Britain's have made over the years two scales of figures and still do. It has been explained to you by Ken as I just finished reading the thread that he has sculpted figures at 30th scale for the newer WWII.

Only a small number of items in the new WWII scale have filtered through and as yet none of the vehicles planned so, its impractical and I would say incorrect to even say they are 32nd scale. The figures certainly are not 32nd scale that have been recently released

Why use today's average height when discussing WWII. German troops were not an average of that during WWII or not the things I have seen. In the first three years of the war and after that actually German height was higher than that average and, in elite units like GD, and PL for the Heer as well as the SS units LAH, DR, HJ was much higher.

It is why deck height breach is a waste of time when discussing figures and scale because its equally as valid for a figure or figures to breach deck heights. something you have consistently stated as incorrect.

I was asking questions not making statements. I asked if the 21st Century Cold Steel King Tiger is 1/32 scale as stated by Hunter Rose; why are W. Britains and First Legion figures size compatable with it? Are W. Britains and First Leigon figures 1/32 or 1/30? If they are 1/30 than so is the King Tiger.

Check the photo of the King Tiger with the 54mm and 60 mm figure and tell me which figure looks correct with the King Tiger. I included a WWII King Tiger and Crew photo for comparison. IMO if the figures and models together can emulate closely a WW II photo; that is realistic and what I try to achieve.

I did a comparison of three Panzer IVs prior to purchase. A Figarti, A First Legion and a 21st Century Cold Steel. The size of the three Panzer IVs is Figarti 1/29, 21st Century 1/30 and First Legion 1/31. I have never stated that the First Legion Panzers or figures are 1/32.

If you have the First Legion Panzer IV measure it and determine the scale. The actual Panzer IV measurements are:

Actual Panzer IV-----------------------------------First Legion Panzer IV---------------------Scale

Hull Length 233"-------------------------------------------------7.4"--------------------------------------1/31

Hull Width 113"--------------------------------------------------3.9"--------------------------------------1/33

Height 106"------------------------------------------------- 3.2"--------------------------------------1/29

The average scale is 1/31 which is size compatable with First Legion figures.

I returned the First Legion PZ IV as it was under size for the W. Britains and Kronprinz figures.

I did not purchase the Figarti PZ IV as it was over size and had issues with visible screw heads attaching the Schurtzen rails and the molded on details were soft. I evaluated the K&C; but was not happy with the tracks. I than evaluated the 21st Century Panzer IV and found that the size was1/30 not 1/32 and it was the most compatible PZ IV with the 60 mm figures I have. Plus the tracks, sprockets and wheels were far superior in detail than the other models evaluated. The Schurtzen can be removed and reinstalled; so you can easily modify the appearance of the Panzer if you wish to group several together. $45 USD each and a little paint and added details and whats not to like?

 

[uksubs]

First of 21st Century and FOV are both out of business like figarti :wink2::rolleyes2:

 

[katana]

First of 21st Century and FOV are both out of business like figarti :wink2::rolleyes2:

Don't forget to add Honor Bound and Conte to your list of the departed. Departed and not forgotten; they will live forever on Ebay and in collections. I picked up a 21st Century Panzer IV and King Tiger new in the box last month on Ebay. I also bought my Honor Bound Panther A on Ebay.

21st Century and FOV may live on; as hard tooling lasts a long time and some company may buy the tooling and go back into production. JSI produces the 1/18 Tiger I, Panther and Sherman from the 21st Century tooling. Monogram has been making a 1/32 Panzer IV and Sd. Kfz. 231 since the 1960s on the same tooling. Tamiya has reproduced their 1/25 scale armor line at least three times. The first production was 1968.

 

[uksubs]

Don't forget to add Honor Bound and Conte to your list of the departed. Departed and not forgotten; they will live forever on Ebay and in collections. I picked up a 21st Century Panzer IV and King Tiger new in the box last month on Ebay. I also bought my Honor Bound Panther A on Ebay.

21st Century and FOV may live on; as hard tooling lasts a long time and some company may buy the tooling and go back into production. JSI produces the 1/18 Tiger I, Panther and Sherman from the 21st Century tooling. Monogram has been making a 1/32 Panzer IV and Sd. Kfz. 231 since the 1960s on the same tooling. Tamiya has reproduced their 1/25 scale armor line at least three times. The first production was 1968.

What 1/32 scale armour got to do with 1/30 scale that what I don't get ^&confuse

 

[chemiebay]

I was asking questions not making statements. I asked if the 21st Century Cold Steel King Tiger is 1/32 scale as stated by Hunter Rose; why are W. Britains and First Legion figures size compatable with it? Are W. Britains and First Leigon figures 1/32 or 1/30? If they are 1/30 than so is the King Tiger.

Check the photo of the King Tiger with the 54mm and 60 mm figure and tell me which figure looks correct with the King Tiger. I included a WWII King Tiger and Crew photo for comparison. IMO if the figures and models together can emulate closely a WW II photo; that is realistic and what I try to achieve.

I did a comparison of three Panzer IVs prior to purchase. A Figarti, A First Legion and a 21st Century Cold Steel. The size of the three Panzer IVs is Figarti 1/29, 21st Century 1/30 and First Legion 1/31. I have never stated that the First Legion Panzers or figures are 1/32.

If you have the First Legion Panzer IV measure it and determine the scale. The actual Panzer IV measurements are:

Actual Panzer IV-----------------------------------First Legion Panzer IV---------------------Scale

Hull Length 233"-------------------------------------------------7.4"--------------------------------------1/31

Hull Width 113"--------------------------------------------------3.9"--------------------------------------1/33

Height 106"------------------------------------------------- 3.2"--------------------------------------1/29

The average scale is 1/31 which is size compatable with First Legion figures.

I returned the First Legion PZ IV as it was under size for the W. Britains and Kronprinz figures.

I did not purchase the Figarti PZ IV as it was over size and had issues with visible screw heads attaching the Schurtzen rails and the molded on details were soft. I evaluated the K&C; but was not happy with the tracks. I than evaluated the 21st Century Panzer IV and found that the size was1/30 not 1/32 and it was the most compatible PZ IV with the 60 mm figures I have. Plus the tracks, sprockets and wheels were far superior in detail than the other models evaluated. The Schurtzen can be removed and reinstalled; so you can easily modify the appearance of the Panzer if you wish to group several together. $45 USD each and a little paint and added details and whats not to like?

I also wrote in the forum some time ago that FL and FOV Pz IVs had aprox. the same dimensions and I was called a troll...but lets face it, that new PZ IV is closer to 1/31 than 1/30, by the way just measure the new tank riders/commanders that fit them....Fortunately, since old and new FL stuff have the same style that is not a huge problem in a diorama as far they are not side by side.

 

[uksubs]

I also wrote in the forum some time ago that FL and FOV Pz IVs had aprox. the same dimensions and I was called a troll...but lets face it, that new PZ IV is closer to 1/31 than 1/30, by the way just measure the new tank riders/commanders that fit them....Fortunately, since old and new FL stuff have the same style that is not a huge problem in a diorama as far they are not side by side.

Do you have a photo of the FL & FOV Panzer IV together?

 

[ivanmoe]

Do you have a photo of the FL & FOV Panzer IV together?

Do you?^&confuse

 

[katana]

What 1/32 scale armour got to do with 1/30 scale that what I don't get ^&confuse

What does 1/28 scale have to do with 1/30 scale; thats what I don't get! Why does 1/30 scale include 1/31, 1/29 and 1/28 scales? Many questions, very few answers!

 

[uksubs]

Do you?^&confuse

Why would I :rolleyes2:

 

[uksubs]

What does 1/28 scale have to do with 1/30 scale; thats what I don't get! Why does 1/30 scale include 1/31, 1/29 and 1/28 scales? Many questions, very few answers!

Look to me that it only you keep asking the same old questions, I'm happy with what I'm collecting with out getting a tape measure out every five minutes

 

[katana]

Look to me that it only you keep asking the same old questions, I'm happy with what I'm collecting with out getting a tape measure out every five minutes

When I purchase a Figarti 1/30 scale Panzer for $250 USD, I expect it to be 1/30 not 1/29 scale. When a Panzer does not look correct with my figures; I take out the caliper and determine why. Usually it is a scale and/or proportion error; which should not occur in a $250 USD product.

I am sure many First Legion collectors will be disappointed to discover that their $350 USD Panzer IV is a bit smaller than advertised at 1/31 scale.

I am pleased to discover that some 21st Century and FOV Panzers are, like TCS over size and compatable with accurate 60 mm figures from W. Britains and Kronprinz. Had I not measured the armor I would not have made this discovery.

 

[uksubs]

When I purchase a Figarti 1/30 scale Panzer for $250 USD, I expect it to be 1/30 not 1/29 scale. When a Panzer does not look correct with my figures; I take out the caliper and determine why. Usually it is a scale and/or proportion error; which should not occur in a $250 USD product.

I am sure many First Legion collectors will be disappointed to discover that their $350 USD Panzer IV is a bit smaller than advertised at 1/31 scale.

I am pleased to discover that some 21st Century and FOV Panzers are, like TCS over size and compatable with accurate 60 mm figures from W. Britains and Kronprinz. Had I not measured the armor I would not have made this discovery.

You said that all before same old story good for you

 

[Baymax]

I do not get those measurements from my Panzer IV. Its certainly not 1/31st unless your rounding up again which does not work. How and what are you measuring?

I think its no surprise that people reply in some ways as your post regarding unsatisfied or shocked FL collectors is a little inflammatory. You suggest it as if its something new when incorrect scale goes back far further than FL

Perhaps your comment should actually have been how do collectors feel when they buy from king and country, Figarti, Collectors showcase et al and do not get the scale they expect.

Please note that King and country and collectors showcase are the only two manufacturers who have continually stated categorically that their items are 30th scale even when they are not.

I had an e-mail from collectors showcase a while back explaining how their items were absolutely bang on 30th scale. What was strange regarding this was he was talking about the new jumbo Tigers which were so far away from 30th scale it was astonishing.

 

[katana]

The photos should prove without doubt that the 21st Century Cold Steel King Tiger is 1/30 scale. The figure on the left is 60 mm -1/30 scale. The figure on the right is 54 mm-1/32 scale.

Which figure is most like the figures in the WWII photo in terms of size in relation to the King Tiger?

View attachment 189889View attachment 189890View attachment 189891

Baymax I agree that the TCS King Tiger is over scale. The length is 9.4", the width is 5.7" and the height is 3.9". The actual King Tiger is 452" long, 144" wide and 121" high. The TCS King Tiger is approximately 1/27 scale!

Please answer a question for me; in the photos of the model , which figure looks most like the figures in the WW II photo in relation to the King Tiger. The left figure or the right figure?

What are the measurements of your FL Panzer IV? Do you have the long or short barrel version?
Chemiebay's FL Panzer IV was under scale as was the one I returned. The one I measured was the short barrel version. The hull length was 7.4" The actual Panzer IV hull length is 233". 233/7.4=31.5 or 1/31.5 scale. I did not round or average numbers; as we are measuring only one dimension.