Pirated Castings (1 Viewer)

[zblang]

There has been much discussion about pirated castings coming out of Russia.
Kolobob has been discussed quite a bit.
When I look on Ebay and online, they look pretty good. Is there anyway to tell they are copies? Do you know for a fact that they are, or is it conjecture?
I'd like to try to do my part to keep people honest and get quality products from people following the law (at least our law).

 

[McFuglas]

I personally have no way of knowing for sure so I hope others with more insight and experience than me weigh in.

Andrea was mentioned. I look at many of the painted Andrea figures on Kolobob and can't really tell.....I have some Andrea kits (haven't actually made any yet!!) and an old Andrea catalogue I browse through from time to time but I'm certainly no expert!

Also, painted 90mm Pegaso figures occasionally turn up. I would have thought inferior knock off castings would be easier to spot at this scale (especially given the excellent high resolution photos Kolobob uses. FL could certainly learn a thing about photography from Kolobob!!). And what about the spectacular 54mm female samurai (Pegaso) who turns up fairly regularly?

I wonder whether its actually a mixed bag, some castings legitimate and some not. Or is it that some pirated castings are so well done that you can't really tell while others are clearly inferior??

I too would greatly appreciate some clarification.

 

[hotel3alpha]

Gents,

Interesting thread. Recently, I was surfing and stumbled upon a company in Hong Kong (selling toy soldiers) who boldly stated that were the same manufacturer who produce toy soldiers for Frontline, TG, K&C and others! These soldiers were straight up knock offs of US Cavalry troops that were eerily familiar to some to the name brand toy soldiers on the market and half the price. So, with out further adieu I sent an email to the K&C staff to inform them of this finding and that's all I could do. But man that would certainly be a concern for me if I was a toy soldier manufacturer!

It got me thinking though about the possible dilution of "fakes" in the market and the real thing. I had this same debate with another seller who was selling what he claimed were hand made "Tenshodo" aircraft. I know the Tenshodo brand as I visited the store when I was in Japan. They are a producer of high end small scale trains and after the war would hand make wooden planes for pilots of their planes. These planes were extremely detailed, hand carved from Mahogany, painted and would come with the signature Tenshodo metal badge made on the bottom. When I was considering purchasing these planes one of the questions I had for the seller was "do they have the badge?" to which he said no. Well, that was a deal breaker for me and though they were awesome birds (with a great story behind them) I just could not buy them with out having the distinctive Tenshodo badge on the bottom.

Apparently, fakes are a huge issue in the business of WWII regalia, specifically the ole Nazi stuff. There are a lot of guys out there who are purporting that they have Hitlers underwear from the Berghoff or what ever. I'm kidding on the underwear thing, but uniforms, helmets and affects of the Third Reich are going for big bucks. And there are some unscrupulous dealers in militaria world that are passing off fakes and remakes as the genuine article. I saw some side by photos are the real thing and fakes and man if you did not what you are looking you could be fooled into thinking it was the real thing. I don't collect military regalia, but the issue of forgeries and fakes is in every corner of collecting.

The only thing I can suggest ZB is review and look at as much detail in those Russian guys. Sometimes the Russian figures have "extra" details in them that are historically incorrect, but are there because the artist is grateful to have a job.

John from Texas

 

[theBaron]

There has been much discussion about pirated castings coming out of Russia.
Kolobob has been discussed quite a bit.
When I look on Ebay and online, they look pretty good.

Hi, Zack,

First, don't use quality as your yardstick. "Pirated" does not necessarily mean "poor quality". Many pirate copies are of very good quality, and that's what drives people to buy them--the pirated copy costs less than the original figure, but the quality is often not discernibly different.

Is there anyway to tell they are copies? Do you know for a fact that they are, or is it conjecture?

You need to educate yourself. It's a good idea to go to the websites of figure companies like Andrea, Pegaso, etc, and have a look at the figures they produce. It takes some effort, though. You might also have a look over at PlanetFigure and TimeLines-Historica, two of the most frequented painters' forums on the web. On PF, there is a current discussion about the most recently-spotted piracy, a copy of a figure made by Stormtrooper Miniatures (whose owner/sculptor is a member of PF), and sold by an eBay seller in Poland.

As a yardstick for yourself, to identify potential pirated copies, Pegaso produced a figure of Frederick II of Swabia, hawking with a falcon or hawk. Here is a link to an image of the box art:

http://www.art-girona.com/326-large_default/frederick-the-2nd-of-swabia-1194-1250.jpg

You can find this figure as a white metal casting in listings by various Russian sellers on eBay. When I see that figure in a seller's listing, I assume that there are more copies in his listings.

As far as kolobob goes, his current offerings are all finished figures, and they look like the run-of-the-mill Russian connoisseur figures from known studios. So if they're copies, they're likely copied at the source. There's a figure of Roman General Maximus, Russell Crowe in "Gladiator", which I would like to compare to other figures, though I don't suspect it's a direct copy, just another example of a popular subject. But you can see how this process of ID'ing a figure works. You have to look at a lot of other figures, by their makers, and remember them.

For what it's worth, you might want to message kolobob through eBay and ask him point-blank if he guarantees that the figures he sells are not copies of someone else's work.

I'd like to try to do my part to keep people honest and get quality products from people following the law (at least our law).

Your point about the law is an excellent one. It's interesting to see the cultural attitude towards intellectual property between the West and the Asian countries like the People's Republic and Thailand, and between the former Soviet states and the rest of the West. I belong to a forum for anime and sci-fi subjects, e2046, which is run by the Hong Kong resin figure marketing company of that same name. And in those forums, there's nary a word spoken about whether or not pirating is right or wrong. There, the debate is about the quality of this or that copy (Thai copies seem to be considered the worst). They routinely copy subjects from Japanese makers, and there appears to be little or no recourse for the artists and copyright-holders.

If you want to uphold intellectual property rights, then you have to educate yourself about the items you want to buy, and you have to decide not to buy a pirated copy, if you've decided that a piece is a copy.

Prost!
Brad

 

[theBaron]

...Recently, I was surfing and stumbled upon a company in Hong Kong (selling toy soldiers) who boldly stated that were the same manufacturer who produce toy soldiers for Frontline, TG, K&C and others! These soldiers were straight up knock offs of US Cavalry troops that were eerily familiar to some to the name brand toy soldiers on the market and half the price. So, with out further adieu I sent an email to the K&C staff to inform them of this finding and that's all I could do. But man that would certainly be a concern for me if I was a toy soldier manufacturer!...

What was the name of that manufacturer, by the way?

Prost!
Brad

 

[McFuglas]

Another option I suppose is to purchase the kit you like and then send it yourself to Kolobob, your studio of choice, or whoever to have it done.

When it comes to the Russian sculpts themselves, many seem to be "shared" by different studios though the Vityaz(Arsenyev) figures appear to be exclusive (General Maximus aside ).

 

[Alex]

Painted figure from the catalog of T. Gapchenko are all legit
A lot of the painted figures that Kolobob sells which are not from T.G. studio are done on sculpts bought for 5-10$ from the various resellers of kits from St-Petersburg.. and many of these resellers are selling recasts of Andrea, Pegaso, etc..
I will try to take some pictures of my own collection where you can see that the casting is not very good
cheers
alex

There has been much discussion about pirated castings coming out of Russia.
Kolobob has been discussed quite a bit.
When I look on Ebay and online, they look pretty good. Is there anyway to tell they are copies? Do you know for a fact that they are, or is it conjecture?
I'd like to try to do my part to keep people honest and get quality products from people following the law (at least our law).

 

[johnnybach]

I have been reluctant to join in with this debate, as I don't purchase expensively painted - or expensive unpainted castings( unless they are on "Special Offer") - but could I just make this point?

It seems to me - from reading some of these posts - that some (possibly copied) castings, can be obtained "locally" to where some of these are painted, for around the US $5-$10 range.

I have just had a look at some of the ranges mentioned, on the Internet - and just to take one example, in the series of "Medieval Knights" from the Toy Soldier manufacturer Andrea - The Black Prince at Crecy, is being offered as an unpainted kit at $134.59.

Is there any wonder why some of the painters abroad are using unauthorised castings - when they can quite easily pocket the difference between the high priced original - and the hugely cheaper alternatives - given the state of copyright laws in their countries??

The answer to this - would seem to me - reduce the price of the original kits to something far more realistic. After all - I assume that the same amount of metal goes into BOTH sets of castings - and if someone can turn a profit on $5-$10 - why are the legitimate castings so much more expensive??? After all, the difference between $10 and £134.59 is not an insignificant sum.

If the original castings were priced at (say) $20 - would there be any incentive for illegal copiers to make one for $10??????

Just a thought - Johnnybach

 

[Martin Tabony]

I have also been reluctant to join this conversasion because if you search Treefrogs I think you'll know my point of view on theft of other peoples work.
Jonny, no offence meant but that's a very simplistic way to look at it.
As Andrea (or who ever) Have invested in professional equipment(it 'aint cheap because they don't sell many!) They then have to spend the time designing, sculpting, making a master mould, making a production mould, packaging, advertising etc. It is up to them to work out how much they need to sell the figure for.
Because they are trying to produce the best possible casting, to be sold in limited numbers, to collectors who then spend anything up to months painting the said casting.
Obviously if you need to get a return of £100.00 and you only sell 10.00 then you have to sell each casting for £10. If you sell 100 then you can sell them for £1.00
Then along comes a scumbag and sticks a casting of your work in silicone mould that cost him a few quid. Said scumbag (notice how polite I'm being) hasn't invested any time or money he just knocks the castings out, He won't care whether the castings a made of a good quality metal or whether the cheap mould is wearing out. So lets say he's selling these knock offs at £2.00, that's £2.00 the the original maker won't see so why would he reduce the price? Even if the figure is painted to cover up the defects, non of the money goes back to the owner of the work.
In the long run if the original maker doesn't make any money, he will stop making figures. Then what happens to the hobby? Will it just scrape by on the recycled products of the older makers? (Some of whom went bust because their figures were being pirated!)
There is one well known person that sells castings of old manufacturers on ebay, that I have had to tell more than once to stop selling copies of my work!!
Martin
p.s. even if the prices were reduced pirates (theives) would still steal the work because they'd they be saving postage etc.

 

[johnnybach]

I have also been reluctant to join this conversasion because if you search Treefrogs I think you'll know my point of view on theft of other peoples work.
Jonny, no offence meant but that's a very simplistic way to look at it.
As Andrea (or who ever) Have invested in professional equipment(it 'aint cheap because they don't sell many!) They then have to spend the time designing, sculpting, making a master mould, making a production mould, packaging, advertising etc. It is up to them to work out how much they need to sell the figure for.
Because they are trying to produce the best possible casting, to be sold in limited numbers, to collectors who then spend anything up to months painting the said casting.
Obviously if you need to get a return of £100.00 and you only sell 10.00 then you have to sell each casting for £10. If you sell 100 then you can sell them for £1.00
Then along comes a scumbag and sticks a casting of your work in silicone mould that cost him a few quid. Said scumbag (notice how polite I'm being) hasn't invested any time or money he just knocks the castings out, He won't care whether the castings a made of a good quality metal or whether the cheap mould is wearing out. So lets say he's selling these knock offs at £2.00, that's £2.00 the the original maker won't see so why would he reduce the price? Even if the figure is painted to cover up the defects, non of the money goes back to the owner of the work.
In the long run if the original maker doesn't make any money, he will stop making figures. Then what happens to the hobby? Will it just scrape by on the recycled products of the older makers? (Some of whom went bust because their figures were being pirated!)
There is one well known person that sells castings of old manufacturers on ebay, that I have had to tell more than once to stop selling copies of my work!!
Martin
p.s. even if the prices were reduced pirates (theives) would still steal the work because they'd they be saving postage etc.

Yes Martyn - I understand your point of view - and I'm NOT arguing for pirated copies being somehow legitimised at all. That's not my point at all.

BUT what I am arguing for - on a practical level - is an idea to STOP ( or help reduce it - if that's not possible ), it being worthwhile to do that.

FACT:Some people are clearly producing a casting for between US$5-10, and are making a profit. Fact:The authentic casting is priced at $134.59

Is it any wonder then, that in a country where the same copyright laws clearly don't apply (even though they should) - that SOME Companies may be using the HUGELY cheaper copies as the basis for their PAINTED business???? Do the maths - it's not just pennies here!

The answer would seem clear to me. If the legitimate Companies want to reduce the effects of piracy - then they need to attract more people to buy their product in the first place. One way of doing so - may be to sell more - for less on each item. It's not rocket science - Supermarkets do it all the time.

So what I'm suggesting - is that they consider reducing prices from over $130 per unpainted casting to something more reasonable- and they might just attract a whole new range of clients - who currently DO NOT buy them - because they consider them overpriced. And I know this - because I'm one of them.

All Companies are perfectly justified in setting prices for the figures they produce - at any price they like. Nothing wrong with that at all. All I'm suggesting is, as previously stated, they consider the possibility of selling more - for less. Who knows - along the way, they may get a whole new set of collectors - and reduce the possibility of intellectual theft somewhat. I can't see anything to object to in making that suggestion. Whether they do - or not - is up to them.

Cheers chum. jb

 

[marco55]

I always try to buy legit kits but the prices are really very high. I agree with Martin that with what companies put in moneywise it is very expensive to get a figure in production.I've inquired what it costs to have a figure sculpted and the lowest I've found is around $300 and that was for a 1/56 scale figure!{eek3}I don't think there is an answer to this problem as the hobby is not large and with the internet everything is at one's fingertips.
Mark

 

[nmrocks]

Interesting thread, While I don't have the issue with overly expensive castings as flats is a more Cottage endeavor, I have to ask, Is the pricing of $130 a figure for 54mm or 1/32 size castings or for the relatively newer larger size 90-128mm castings? I could see the higher pricing for the larger, say mounted casting but if the price is for the smaller size I would say that the price reflects a marketing strategy as opposed to making a profit, in this world putting that kind of pricing on your product makes you a large target as with high end merchandise such as purses, luggage, clothing, etc.
Ray

 

[hotel3alpha]

What was the name of that manufacturer, by the way?

Prost!
Brad

Brad,

The ebay selling name is as follows:

faircloverland

Mong Hok Hong Kong

I was searching for "King and Country Fokker" in the ebay search bar and saw a bunch of Fokkers that had an origin of "China". So, I clicked on the item and went to their ebay store and thats when I found the figures with description of who they are. They had the whole statement about being the same company who make soldiers for other companies and so on.

Sent a email to K&C Hong Kong to make them aware and that's all I can do. But I'll be ****ed if I buy anything from them including the Fokkers because something just does not smell right. I just find it pretty ballsy to put it out there that they have produced figures for big manufacturers and now please buy ours. Your just asking for a Toy Soldier Company (in HONG KONG of all places) to come to your plant and say...***...over? I mean talk about cutting your own throat!

John from Texas

 

[Martin Tabony]

Yes Martyn - I understand your point of view - and I'm NOT arguing for pirated copies being somehow legitimised at all. That's not my point at all.

BUT what I am arguing for - on a practical level - is an idea to STOP ( or help reduce it - if that's not possible ), it being worthwhile to do that.

FACT:Some people are clearly producing a casting for between US$5-10, and are making a profit. Fact:The authentic casting is priced at $134.59

Is it any wonder then, that in a country where the same copyright laws clearly don't apply (even though they should) - that SOME Companies may be using the HUGELY cheaper copies as the basis for their PAINTED business???? Do the maths - it's not just pennies here!

The answer would seem clear to me. If the legitimate Companies want to reduce the effects of piracy - then they need to attract more people to buy their product in the first place. One way of doing so - may be to sell more - for less on each item. It's not rocket science - Supermarkets do it all the time.

So what I'm suggesting - is that they consider reducing prices from over $130 per unpainted casting to something more reasonable- and they might just attract a whole new range of clients - who currently DO NOT buy them - because they consider them overpriced. And I know this - because I'm one of them.

All Companies are perfectly justified in setting prices for the figures they produce - at any price they like. Nothing wrong with that at all. All I'm suggesting is, as previously stated, they consider the possibility of selling more - for less. Who knows - along the way, they may get a whole new set of collectors - and reduce the possibility of intellectual theft somewhat. I can't see anything to object to in making that suggestion. Whether they do - or not - is up to them.

Cheers chum. jb

I do understand what you're say but a figure that retails at $130 probably doesn't have a very large market anyway, so even if you halved the price, you wouldn't increase sales to twice as many people to make up the short fall. The number of people who collect figures is very limited.
I doubt very much that the $5/$10 casting is anything like a $130 castings, that's like saying you can sit on a log so why should you pay for a hand made chair.
FACT you can, but don't try to tell me they're the same thing!
I realise that supermarkets do this kind of thing all the time, which is one of the reasons why the high street shops are suffering now! Supermarkets also don't supply to specialist hobbies.
Of course we could all reduce our prices and not worry about whether we can pay our bills. We wouldn't last long.
By the way none of my figures have ever sold for anything like $130. It didn't stop the theives though!

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

Yo Martyn - sorry about piracy of your figures. I really enjoyed the few I have of yours, that I bought via the BMSS - back in the days when you used to sell castings. I also realise that I'm in a niche hobby myself - and not exactly the mainstream collector - so maybe have a different perspective on things.

I still find plenty of stuff to satisfy me - so not really all that bothered about what I consider silly prices - I just don't buy 'em - simple as that. And never even thought about buying anything from any of the guys behind what used to be called the Iron Curtain - once upon a time. jb

 

[Alex]

There's also another thing that bothers me with those russian sellers : of legit kits, counterfeit ones and painted figures..
They all list their stuff in US dollars because they all use the same company for getting paid (no paypal in Russia) (except Igot who post here).
But they don't adjust their price accordingly.
Against the canadian dollar, as of today, the russian rubble has lost 50% of it's value in the last 4 months...
So when I was paying them for example 100$ during last summer, they were receiving at that time around 3000 rubles... but the same 100$ today is worth 4500 rubles !!!
Kolobob and the like must be very happy

Cheers
Alex

Yes Martyn - I understand your point of view - and I'm NOT arguing for pirated copies being somehow legitimised at all. That's not my point at all.

BUT what I am arguing for - on a practical level - is an idea to STOP ( or help reduce it - if that's not possible ), it being worthwhile to do that.

FACT:Some people are clearly producing a casting for between US$5-10, and are making a profit. Fact:The authentic casting is priced at $134.59

Is it any wonder then, that in a country where the same copyright laws clearly don't apply (even though they should) - that SOME Companies may be using the HUGELY cheaper copies as the basis for their PAINTED business???? Do the maths - it's not just pennies here!

The answer would seem clear to me. If the legitimate Companies want to reduce the effects of piracy - then they need to attract more people to buy their product in the first place. One way of doing so - may be to sell more - for less on each item. It's not rocket science - Supermarkets do it all the time.

So what I'm suggesting - is that they consider reducing prices from over $130 per unpainted casting to something more reasonable- and they might just attract a whole new range of clients - who currently DO NOT buy them - because they consider them overpriced. And I know this - because I'm one of them.

All Companies are perfectly justified in setting prices for the figures they produce - at any price they like. Nothing wrong with that at all. All I'm suggesting is, as previously stated, they consider the possibility of selling more - for less. Who knows - along the way, they may get a whole new set of collectors - and reduce the possibility of intellectual theft somewhat. I can't see anything to object to in making that suggestion. Whether they do - or not - is up to them.

Cheers chum. jb

 

[McFuglas]

Is the pricing of $130 a figure for 54mm or 1/32 size castings or for the relatively newer larger size 90-128mm castings?
Ray

The Black Prince at Crecy is in fact a small diorama consisting of three figures and a horse (in 54mm).
Your average Andrea figure seems to be US$20 to $30. Obviously it's much more for a mounted figure or 90mm figure, and for a 90mm mounted figure.....look out!!

 

[marco55]

Pegaso are higher with the newer figures in 54mm in the $40-$50 range.They have been going more and more to 75mm which is in the $60-$70 range.That's why I don't get too many kits painted in a year because your looking at $170-$200 per figure.Oh How I wish I could paint!{eek3}^&grin
Mark

 

[McFuglas]

There's also another thing that bothers me with those russian sellers : of legit kits, counterfeit ones and painted figures..
They all list their stuff in US dollars because they all use the same company for getting paid (no paypal in Russia) (except Igot who post here).
But they don't adjust their price accordingly.
Against the canadian dollar, as of today, the russian rubble has lost 50% of it's value in the last 4 months...
So when I was paying them for example 100$ during last summer, they were receiving at that time around 3000 rubles... but the same 100$ today is worth 4500 rubles !!!
Kolobob and the like must be very happy

Cheers
Alex

I can perhaps understand the exchange rate changes taking a while to filter through a company like AeroArt (I emphasize perhaps), but for shops in Russia dealing directly with customers in the US and elsewhere, I have trouble seeing an excuse for not adjusting prices given the huge currency shift.

Add to that, the US dollar is strengthening against many other currencies so when I pay for something in US dollars I'm actually paying 20% more than I was just a year ago.
It's getting to the point where it may be cheaper for me to fly to St Petersburg myself! :-D

No PayPal in Russia? But they seem to be willing to take PayPal payments on EBay.....

 

[McFuglas]

.Oh How I wish I could paint!{eek3}^&grin
Mark

Me too. Wouldn't it just solve everything