Prices for NEW Tunisian Tiger I and Panzer IV TankK & C? (1 Viewer)

johngambale

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:( Why is the NEW Panzer IV Tank DAK is Expensive ; when the First Panzer IV DAK ( Long Barrel) was less Expensive! I would think this NEW DAK Panzer IV, would be Moderately Priced? Also, the K & C Tunisian Tiger I , is still available with most Dealer's and this was supposed to be LIMITED? Also, Honour Bound is way too much Money to Spend on their Armor and their Figure's! I could understand, that they're a small Company, but the EconomyToday, is getting worse for Everyone! If things don't change hopefully soon, then Many of us Toy Collector's, will not be Buying as Much as Previously! Their is other Commodities, which have Higher Priority's than Buying Expensive Toys!
 
John,

I believe K & C should probably address this but AK 23, the prior Panzer IV, came out in the 2004 time frame. Things were a lot cheaper then and the price of labor and raw materials has increased. The price of armor has steadily gone up since then as a result. I'm sure that K & C also wishes to increase their profit margin as well. In addition, these tanks are better sculpted than previous ones. Better quality, unfortunately, comes with a price.

With respect to the Tunisian Tiger, just because it's limited doesn't mean you can't get it from dealers; they just haven't sold all of them yet. You can still probably get the Panzer Meyer and General Inspection Sherman from dealers.

The Honour Bound issue has been addressed by Ana in the Honor Bound section so I won't address it here.
 
Brad,

Points well taken as they are dead on.

BUT, I think this is a decent question from the collector too and it really is to all manufacturers. This is a hobby which in turn comes from disposable income. Now, obviously, the more one has in disposable income, the more they can choose to spend! However, I really do see (and this not gloom and doom, just cycles) a downturn in all hobby markets as the American dollar is shrinking both in value and in disposable income terms. I think we might see some slow times ahead and I for one am pickier on purchasing new product nowadays. I still pursue retireds, but don't buy as much new as I thought I would. I also think we are seeing increased competition in certain areas from new or existing manufacturers. The question is do they have the staying power to compete in the long run.

Long story short, our own USA economy is not helping the hobby market and the hobby market is a little crowded both in product and in price.

Just some observations and opinions for what its worth. I know I personally over the next year will be inventorying, setting up and displaying my own collection. I also know I will be putting stuff back out to market as I simply will not have enough room or will want to go in different directions. I will be curious as to what return I receive, hopeful that all in all I get back what I put in, but you never know and should never collect solely on that premise!

Tom
 
Tom,

Agree with your points as well. If we are in fact going to go through some economic hard times, I think this industry, as well as any industry that caters to our disposable income, will feel the pinch. It may get to the point where we may have to finance purchases through sales of our collection. However, as you said, who knows what kind of return we'll get. It seems to me that prices are already slowing on ebay although that could be due in part to people having to pay off for Christmas purchases.

I would like to hear John's (njja) thoughts on this as I believe he's a very savvy on these kinds of issues.
 
When I hear some forum members say that the new Panzer IV is expensive..........I must say I am a bit confused....... Expensive as Compared to What? HB or Figarti.......the price of K/C products has indeed gone up a bit however this increase is somewhat moderate compared to the relative increase in quality......as well as tank figures being included with the amoured vehicles..........In the recent past I have seen some forum members sell older poorer quality K/C figures and tanks for much much more than what they were purchased for at retail and at times only months after being "retired"...........Ridiculous prices were asked and paid on the secondary market;............ I guess increases in K/C's prices will cut into the profits of those who collect or hord to sell.....None of us are particularly happy about rising prices for all goods and services but I feel K/C prices are still relatively within reason.....IMO Vezzolf
 
I think Mr Bush should inject that federal relief plan of his into the toy soldier industry. That would ensure a definite economic upturn.
:):):)
Regards
Damian Clarke
 
When I hear some forum members say that the new Panzer IV is expensive..........I must say I am a bit confused....... Expensive as Compared to What? HB or Figarti.......the price of K/C products has indeed gone up a bit however this increase is somewhat moderate compared to the relative increase in quality......as well as tank figures being included with the amoured vehicles..........In the recent past I have seen some forum members sell older poorer quality K/C figures and tanks for much much more than what they were purchased for at retail and at times only months after being "retired"...........Ridiculous prices were asked and paid on the secondary market;............ I guess increases in K/C's prices will cut into the profits of those who collect or hord to sell.....None of us are particularly happy about rising prices for all goods and services but I feel K/C prices are still relatively within reason.....IMO Vezzolf


I agree and you are getting 5 crew members with the Panzer IV as well, lucky for me I am not a DAK collector or I would be getting this tank ASAP. I many wait and get it in a few months though. Still compared to other companies, K&C isnt that bad as far as a price increase goes, just remember one important thing, YOU DONT HAVE TO BUY ALL AT ONCE:) Pace yourself and watch with delight as your collections grow.
 
My post was not particularly directed at any manufacturer in particular, more or less comments on the hobby/industry. The hobby has never been inexpensive per se, but I think you will see it become even more expensive in the future due to higher costs and weakening US dollar and economy. I think in the long run, these factors hurt both consumer and dealer/manufacturer.

Tom
 
Usually ,since I am a tank mostly guy...I might pay the main price, but the first things to be sold are the standing figures, which offsets the initial financial hurt...Michael
 
It has always pained me to buy anything from China including toy soldiers - even though I do it. There is some irony that so many US jobs have gone to a communist country with slave-like working conditions that we now are told that we have to pay more for their products due to a labor shortage in that country. Almost the absolute worst outcome for everyone involved including the Chinese.
 
Single Figure vs Multiple

King and Country is a business. As such, they don't have to justify why they have increased their price since last year. I don't believe that's because of an increase in the price of raw materials.. Labor is I think the culprit and also (or if not the only reason), the need for an increase in margins. If we look at the price of multiples (around 90$ for 4 soldiers) a couple of years ago and if we compare that to the new sets.... it's only going up and also sets of 4 are becoming pretty scarce.. Yeah you could say that you don't have to buy poses you don't want for example.. But I believe that the main reason for offering singles is simply and only because 4x25$US=100$... that's a 10% increase.. But at the end, you're the only one who decide which set you'll buy or not.. However, I still love to have more bang for my bucks so for now I'll stick to multiples.. and that's too bad for K&C cause I'll buy less at the end of the year

Alex.
 
Hi Guys,

It’s more than a wee bit ironic that the leader of the “I want it ALL and I want it NOW!” brigade is now complaining about rising prices.

No one (including me) likes to raise prices but as costs are continually rising what are we to do? At the same time collectors’ justifiable wishes for improved quality...more detail...more variety all comes at a higher price.

Factor in, as I’ve written several times before, higher labour costs...more expensive raw materials...and transportation hikes and...hey presto...higher prices!

Now let me address some of Combat’s concerns about China in general...

1) US jobs going to China...This is definitely true and why? Because U.S. companies cannot afford U.S. labour costs. If you think, Combat, your prices are high just now get everything made in the U.S.A. by U.S. workers and your costs will go through the roof! US consumers love low prices and China supplies that.

2) China is a communist country...

In name only...this place is the most capitalist in the world! Fortunes are being made and lost (not by me) every day. If you were actually here you could see it with your own two eyes.

3) Slave-like working conditions...

I cannot speak for everyone but I would assert that virtually every toy soldier company who is producing in China is using factories and workshops that are far from slave-like. They may not be up to U.S. standards but everything is relative.

Most workers I have seen during hundreds of visits over the last 15 years are happy to work in light, spacious conditions for 8-10 hours a day, 5 1/2 days a week, get 3 square meals a day plus accommodation provided free by the factory. Compare that to working as a peasant 16 hours a day in the fields for virtually nothing doing back-breaking labour...

There is a labour shortage because as more factories open up more skilled (not unskilled) workers are required. There is no shortage of unskilled only skilled.

So, Combat, sorry you have to pay a little more for your hobby but console yourself with the fact that had all of your toy soldiers (and a lot more besides) been manufactured in the States you would not be able to afford them at all!

Best wishes to one and all and...happy collecting!

Andy C.
 
Great post, Andy.

I read an article that totally contradicted our American view of Chinese slave labor.

It basically said that:

1. Many factories are like college campuses supplying many ammenities like entertainment, food, housing etc. They can travel off campus to buy what they like but the option is there
2. In the rural areas of China, many young people leave their families for some years to earn in one month what their entire family earns in a year
3. That, while our elected officials wave the banner of Democracy in China they are ignoring the fact of the above two items - why would the average Chinese worker rise up and revolt if they are, in fact, doing relatively well?

I know that not all factories are like this and that will change as the demand for skilled labor increases and people are afforded more choices of where to work. That is the natural evolution of workplaces when demand for workers is high.
 
Wow, there is a lot of global implication in this post in my opinion. I do think that China and the United States are in a very symbiotic relationship. They manufacture a whole heaping ton of items that Americans are more then willing to buy at a lower cost. I think the biggest reason in general that they can make these items at a lower cost is because they don’t have to provide health insurance/care for their labor force. I firmly believe that in the next five to ten years American health insurance and health coverage will become a far more intensive issue, even more so then it is now. That could be good or the way politics is going now a days – that could be really bad. The shear weight of American health insurance on costs is now on a global scale. How are the Americans to compete with the global market? I don’t really know, I’m by no means an expert in this area but I do think it would be good if things changed.

Now switching gears to China is a communist country “in name only”. I am sorry but I just can not find myself to agree to this. Yes, there is free trade happening in China. Yet, in my opinion China has massive human rights issues. I can’t imagine that currently there are people walking around in “Free Tibet” t-shirts over there. I also can’t imagine that there are a lot of people walking around on the street who would like to openly discuss Taiwan. I think it’s a pretty good rule of thumb that if you openly bash on the government over there you’re going to disappear. These sorts of actions and behaviors are pretty typical of a hard line communist country.

Now, I’ve never lived in China. I haven’t even traveled to China(yet). So if I’m being totally ignorant please accept my fullest apologies. I would love to get some feedback on this post especially from people who currently reside, have lived or have traveled to China.

Thanks and have a great day
MCKENNA
 

2) China is a communist country...

In name only...this place is the most capitalist in the world! Fortunes are being made and lost (not by me) every day. If you were actually here you could see it with your own two eyes.

3) Slave-like working conditions...

I cannot speak for everyone but I would assert that virtually every toy soldier company who is producing in China is using factories and workshops that are far from slave-like. They may not be up to U.S. standards but everything is relative.

Most workers I have seen during hundreds of visits over the last 15 years are happy to work in light, spacious conditions for 8-10 hours a day, 5 1/2 days a week, get 3 square meals a day plus accommodation provided free by the factory. Compare that to working as a peasant 16 hours a day in the fields for virtually nothing doing back-breaking labour...

There is a labour shortage because as more factories open up more skilled (not unskilled) workers are required. There is no shortage of unskilled only skilled.


Well said Mr Neilson,

I've been wanting to explain these Chinese Labour issues to the more PC and misguided members of this forum for some considerable time now but have been reluctant to do so because the inevitable response would have been, "Well, the Heid would say that wouldn't he".

It’s more than a wee bit ironic that the leader of the “I want it ALL and I want it NOW!” brigade is now complaining about rising prices.

As for the "Endless List Compiler"......Excellent response IMO...:D:D:D

Cheers
H
 
Now switching gears to China is a communist country “in name only”. I am sorry but I just can not find myself to agree to this. Yes, there is free trade happening in China. Yet, in my opinion China has massive human rights issues. I can’t imagine that currently there are people walking around in “Free Tibet” t-shirts over there. I also can’t imagine that there are a lot of people walking around on the street who would like to openly discuss Taiwan. I think it’s a pretty good rule of thumb that if you openly bash on the government over there you’re going to disappear. These sorts of actions and behaviors are pretty typical of a hard line communist country.
MCKENNA

With all due respect, we have a two party system where independent/third parties are routinely ignored and excluded, plenty of retaliation towards individuals who speak up and make waves in this country. Small things happen here and there - it happens - not disapeering but people do get silenced to some degree.

Why do you think your average Chinese citizen would want to wear a "Free Tibet" shirt or discuss Taiwan? Taiwan is to China what Cuba is to us - having strong relationships with enemies and being very close to the mainland.

Different countries have different ways of dealing with their populations. Democracy and humn rights do not look the same outside of our country and to a large degree doesn't really matter. Looking at the world through American eyes leaves us very blind to the internal workings of a society and leads to tremdous tensions.
 
We have strayed a bit afield here as usual, but as I understand the issue some collectors (not me) were concerned about the rising costs of KC and other manufacturer's products. I just pointed out the irony that so many jobs have gone to China in return for lower cost products that we are now being told costs must increase due to the creation of a labor shortage in that country. I have no idea about the working conditions at KC or other toy solider manufacturer factories in that country. Nevertheless, the notion that working conditions in China are generally favorable or that the workers are better off to have these jobs is so far removed from all evidence to the contrary as to negate any need to respond. In fact, it sounds a bit like the logic behind the good old days of colonization.


The Chinese labor report, issued by the National Labor Committee for Human Rights, details brutal working conditions in Chinese factories, where workers are paid wages as low as 3 cents per hour.

The committee found that some Chinese workers put in 98-hour work weeks and compulsory unpaid overtime. Furthermore, the report said, some factories placed a ban on talking during work hours and incorporated 24- hour prison-like surveillance. Most factories, said the committee, had a host of unsanitary working conditions.

For years, U.S. companies have claimed that their mere presence in China would help open that society to democratic values, the report said. But, far from promoting human rights, the record shows that U.S. companies and their contractors in China are actively involved in the systematic denial of worker rights.

Chinese factories routinely violate the most fundamental human and worker rights, and pay below subsistence wages, said the committee.

For example, the report documented that women working in the production of Timberland shoes at Pou Yuen Factory V, Zhongshan City in the country's Guangdong Province, typically work 14-hour days, seven days per week, during the busy seasons. The factory employs 16- and 17-year- old girls, pays them 22 cents per hour ($16.13 for 70-hour work weeks), and mandates excessively high daily production quotas that cannot be reached in eight hours.

Worse, the girls and women employed there are regularly cheated out of overtime pay, because all overtime work is mandatory and is either unpaid or compensated at just the standard piece rate, the report said.

Meanwhile, factory temperatures routinely soar above 100 degrees, and workers reported handling toxic glues and other solvents without gloves. They also complain of high dust levels, excessive noise and strong chemical odors, committee researchers found.

Workers are also threatened and coached to lie to U.S. company auditors. And as is standard practice in China, any workers attempting to defend their rights or form an independent union will be imprisoned.

China accounts for 60 percent of all the shoes imported to the U.S., with a retail value of $16.9 billion a year, the report said. And Timberland, specifically, posted record first-quarter revenue and earnings in April.

Footwear factory in China. Sixty percent of all shoes imported into the U.S. come from China.

Employees working at Qin Shi Handbag Factory, where they sew Kathie Lee [Gifford] handbags for Wal-Mart, fare even worse. There, workers are paid 1/10th of a cent per hour, or 8 cents per week (36 cents per month).

'Mr. C,' [from the] Henan Province, tarted working on July 22, 1999, receiving his August wages on September 30, earning $30.24 (251 rmb), said the report, which documented the pay of several workers at the Kathie Lee plant. This was the highest wage in the group, coming to $6.98 a week -- 8 cents an hour. However, the following month, he received only partial payment.

High walls and guard towers surround the Tae-Kyung factory where Fubu sneakers are made.

Pay for the top 14 percent of workers at Qin Shi was $18.10 per month, or just five cents per day, and nearly half the workers surveyed (46 percent) actually owed the company money after a month's work, said the report.

Other factories making other high-end products for the U.S. market have employees suffering similar conditions.

Top of the line Alpine car stereos, some costing up to $1,300 each, are made in China by young women who are paid 31 cents an hour and sit hunched over, staring into microscopes 9[product] hours a day, six days a week, soldering the fine pieces of the stereo, the report said. Above the women is an electronic scoreboard which monitors their progress in meeting their production quota of 720 stereos a day.

According to factory management, there is a 9[product] hour daily shift, from 8:00 a.m. to 5:30 p.m., six days a week, with an hour off for lunch, the report said. Though researchers could not independently confirm this with the workers ... if management was accurate, the workers would be in the factory 57 hours a week, while being paid for 51 hours.

China has a greater income disparity than the U.S., with the top 20 percent controlling nearly 53 percent of the country's wealth.

Though U.S. company executives argue that they and their factory contractors in China pay decent subsistence wages -- wages that are very competitive given the low cost of living in China, they say -- the committee disputed those claims.

Wages in China's export assembly industry do provide a subsistence level existence if it is meant in the sense that H.H. Cutler's CEO said of the 28-cent-an-hour wages they paid in Haiti: 'Well, the workers are alive aren't they? So they must be subsistence wages,' said the committee.

And that is precisely the point, researchers argued.

The factory workers in China do survive on their wages because they work 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week during peak seasons, often with just one day off a month, researchers said. They survive because most factory workers are migrants from rural areas who, once they arrive at the factory, are housed 10 to 20 people to one small, crowded company dorm room. For the years they are at the factory, their 'home' is a 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 by 6 1/2-foot space on a metal bunk bed. They subsist on two or three dismal meals a day provided at the factory canteen.

The committee said that averaging factory pay among all industries amounts to about $65 per month. But to maintain a very modest diet for a three-person family costs approximately $72.29 a month, which is more than most factory workers earn.

To substantiate arguments encouraging U.S. lawmakers to grant China permanent normal trade status, North American companies claim their presence in China would set an example of respect for human and worker rights, and that this example would spread throughout China.

But committee researchers also debunked this conventional wisdom, saying that -- for example -- companies like Wal-Mart have been in China for a decade, but workers are still treated much like indentured servants. At the Kathie Lee factory, many [workers] did not even have the bus fare to leave to look for other work, and when they protested the grueling mandatory overtime work for literally pennies an hour, or nothing at all, 800 workers were fired, said the committee report.
 
Combat - BOLLOCKS.
Go to China and see for yourself instead of believing everything that people with their own agendas publish.

H
 

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