Scale / Size (1 Viewer)

[Firebat]

Some think scale /size is important........ some don't


I think collectors don't care about size / scale, because they put them in their display case and admire them individually.

But for modelers and diorama builders it is very important, because you may have an idea for a scene with some pieces you have from various manufacturers and when you go to put it together you see it can't work....Very frustrating

Ken Osen who is a leader in this industry has spoken about scale. The overall scale of a figure / vehicle and the scale of the components that make up that figure / vehicle.

I and others have spoken of size...The relative size of figures / vehicles from different manufacturers in relation to each other.

They are the same, but different, and I personally am concerned with both.

I think a standard should be developed that the Manufacturers abide by......I just did a serious inventory and organization of my collection and I never realized how vast the problem is.

I is a horror...Yet in ways it actually worked for me. But I would rather it not be that way

I am obviously a diorama builder more than a collector and the subject is important to me.

I have some examples which I will bring in as we progress. Alex

 

[Larry Allen]

Evening Firebat;
Your first line says it all ..... "some think size/scale is important AND some don't."

I would encourage a standard among manufactures but I am pretty sure that won't happen. Heck, there is even a variation within a manufacturer's series and EVEN IN THE SAME SERIES. Look at K&C AWI for examples. But many differnet sets can be made to work if you play the perspective and distance options correctly.

Even further, many don't care and will "happily" place a K&C figure beside a First Legion figure who is beside a a Frontline figure. What makes this hobby so much fun is that there "IS" a variation. IF everyone produced the same sets in the same poses and in the same scale .... boring!

Good Collecting
Larry

 

[divado]

Ok, I'm new to this forum. Something that doesn't make sense with scale. Why did Wm. Britains make the Glossy Sudan Nile figures ("Redcoats") different from the scale they use for the "new" Sudan items they sell and still call them both 1/32 (or 54mm)? Imperial, Hiriart & Hocker seem more to proper scale than Britain does. Am i wrong? When you place soldiers in displays, as i do, Hiriart & Imperial go well together, NEW Britains, do not. For what reason?
Also, does anyone have any of those promo cards Imperial made showing their figures with numbers? Am looking for descriptions with pics of the te maori NZ Series.
Many thanks.
dave.

 

[maddadicus]

I am a collector, but relative size to each other is most important to me, even as they sit in rows, displayed in my cases. I no longer believe what any mfg. advertises as their actual scale. I have all the conversion programs I need to impune the credibility of each one. The facts are that all these figures and vehicles are done overseas with minimal supervision and what ever the final product is, is...Too expensive to change any of the mfg. process to ensure even the same sizes for models from the same mfg. for the same lines. I hear the slavish rah rah boys say that only their mfg. has it absolutely right for scale, even as any one of us can place that mfg. figures and vehicles from multiple lines and multiple runs next to each other ,only to see that they are all sized different. They are all advertised as 1/30 scale, though the physical evidence shows otherwise. Those that do not care about proper size or scale within their favorite mfg. tend to do so because no one wants to admit that their overpriced toys are not as promised. " My $350 tank seems so small next to other mfg. $200 tank! " I will be darned if I am going to admit that I as a collector got screwed. Better I beat the drum that my tank is far superior and the absolute proper size compared to all others.." What makes any propaganda work is to say whatever more often and much louder than the actual truth. Michael

 

[maddadicus]

Ok, I'm new to this forum. Something that doesn't make sense with scale. Why did Wm. Britains make the Glossy Sudan Nile figures ("Redcoats") different from the scale they use for the "new" Sudan items they sell and still call them both 1/32 (or 54mm)? Imperial, Hiriart & Hocker seem more to proper scale than Britain does. Am i wrong? When you place soldiers in displays, as i do, Hiriart & Imperial go well together, NEW Britains, do not. For what reason?
Also, does anyone have any of those promo cards Imperial made showing their figures with numbers? Am looking for descriptions with pics of the te maori NZ Series.
Many thanks.
dave.

I collect Hocker, Hiriart, and some Imperial. Agree that these mfg. size up real well to each other. The new Britains glossies are really their matte scale 54mm all shined up. I have never understood why the noticeable size difference between 54mm figures only because of sculpting style..Michael

 

[lancer]

I am a collector, but relative size to each other is most important to me, even as they sit in rows, displayed in my cases. I no longer believe what any mfg. advertises as their actual scale. I have all the conversion programs I need to impune the credibility of each one. The facts are that all these figures and vehicles are done overseas with minimal supervision and what ever the final product is, is...Too expensive to change any of the mfg. process to ensure even the same sizes for models from the same mfg. for the same lines. I hear the slavish rah rah boys say that only their mfg. has it absolutely right for scale, even as any one of us can place that mfg. figures and vehicles from multiple lines and multiple runs next to each other ,only to see that they are all sized different. They are all advertised as 1/30 scale, though the physical evidence shows otherwise. Those that do not care about proper size or scale within their favorite mfg. tend to do so because no one wants to admit that their overpriced toys are not as promised. " My $350 tank seems so small next to other mfg. $200 tank! " I will be darned if I am going to admit that I as a collector got screwed. Better I beat the drum that my tank is far superior and the absolute proper size compared to all others.." What makes any propaganda work is to say whatever more often and much louder than the actual truth. Michael

True, and well said. -- Al

 

[Martin Tabony]

As a manufacturer all I can add to this is that I do like to make figures in the original 1/32nd scale, but I'm now making figures in 1/30th, because that is what I'm asked for!

Martin

 

[Firebat]

I am a collector, but relative size to each other is most important to me, even as they sit in rows, displayed in my cases. I no longer believe what any mfg. advertises as their actual scale. I have all the conversion programs I need to impune the credibility of each one. The facts are that all these figures and vehicles are done overseas with minimal supervision and what ever the final product is, is...Too expensive to change any of the mfg. process to ensure even the same sizes for models from the same mfg. for the same lines. I hear the slavish rah rah boys say that only their mfg. has it absolutely right for scale, even as any one of us can place that mfg. figures and vehicles from multiple lines and multiple runs next to each other ,only to see that they are all sized different. They are all advertised as 1/30 scale, though the physical evidence shows otherwise. Those that do not care about proper size or scale within their favorite mfg. tend to do so because no one wants to admit that their overpriced toys are not as promised. " My $350 tank seems so small next to other mfg. $200 tank! " I will be darned if I am going to admit that I as a collector got screwed. Better I beat the drum that my tank is far superior and the absolute proper size compared to all others.." What makes any propaganda work is to say whatever more often and much louder than the actual truth. Michael

{bravo}}

I think you summed it up......I like uniformity and I also believe it will never happen. What shocked me a bit is I thought K&C was somewhat uniform, but when I did my organization the other day, I was looking as some of the K&C WS sets and I noticed some of them were matching up with Britains stuff I had, yet in the scene we did in Episode II of TGC we matched up K&C US Paras with TCS Germans, which are for the most part on the large side of the spectrum.

Michael I followed your Stuart thread and I took mine out and compared it to the TCS Stuart, wow they were way off, with the TCS being much larger, but the K&C Stuart was more the size of a FOV, yes FOV Stuart I have.

I make no particular point here, nor do I single out any manufacturer I just show this as one example of many. I also have Figarti 1/30 that fit in the same category I described above.

FL seems consistent small while TCS seems consistent large. TGM seems to draw a nice balance. Once again these are just observations, I cast no judgement about the manufacturers. I just wish they were all the same........... It would make things easier. Alex

 

[marco55]

I had gotten a couple of figures from a company as I heard they were smaller and would fit with my kit figures but were as big as Jenkins figures.Even among the kits there are noticable differences.I know if I get Andrea,Michael Roberts or Time Machine I know they will be smaller than Pegaso,Romeo,La Meridiana or Soldiers.
Mark

 

[maddadicus]

As a manufacturer all I can add to this is that I do like to make figures in the original 1/32nd scale, but I'm now making figures in 1/30th, because that is what I'm asked for!

Martin

Martin, since you have been TS involved for some time in all facets of the mfg. process, maybe you could give us a lesson in the difference between glossy old style 54mm ( early Britains, Hocker, etc.) and the new type 54mm full ( Trophy, Little Legion and new Britains ) Thanks, Michael

 

[trooper]

Martin is right when he says that sculptors make the figures they are asked for. Many years ago I made and moulded basic "dolly" figures in various sizes. True 54mm (soles of feet to top of head), slightly larger, heavier figure (as Tradition, ATS, Little Legion, Wilson Edwards etc), 30mm, 80mm and 90mm. When an order comes in I just cast up the appropriate size knowing that it will match in with the rest of the range. I have been given to understand that K&C employs some ten sculptors and can only surmise that differences in their figures are down to the ten individual styles. New Hope Design had a similar problem. Another problem is people's perception of size as witness discussions on other threads in the forum. Some insist that 54mm is from the feet to the eyes, others that it is to the top of the hat! If people ask you how tall you are do you reply 5 foot eight in my cap, but six foot two with my top hat? But the classic definition of size was Figarti. When they produced the full model of the Victory, supposedly in 1/32nd scale, a lengthy discussion followed terminating with Figarti saying it was in"toy" scale. Trooper

 

[Martin Tabony]

Martin, since you have been TS involved for some time in all facets of the mfg. process, maybe you could give us a lesson in the difference between glossy old style 54mm ( early Britains, Hocker, etc.) and the new type 54mm full ( Trophy, Little Legion and new Britains ) Thanks, Michael

As i understand it the "original" toy soldier scale was 1/32, because of the fractions of Imperial measurment e.g. 1 inch, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32nd, 1/64th. (I'm not sure which came first but I believe railway modellers use 1/32nd but call it '0' gauge.) Therefore any toy soldier should be thirty two times smaller than the original. In continental Europe the metric system was used and the nearest size was 54mm.
During the early years of the hobby I don't think the different sizes were a problem because makers generaly only sold in their own country.
There are people on this forum older than me who can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the confusion began in the 60's, when plastic models started to be sold around the world. Fore instance Historex figures, that a lot of us cut our teeth on, were sold as 54mm but they scale out at 1/30th. Airfix were producing figures in 1/32nd and most of the models coming from the far east were 1/35th!!
In the 70s, 80s and 90s most "new" toy soldiers were made in the U.K and generaly stuck to 1/32nd (helped in a large part by the fact that a lot of the masters were made by Alan Caton )
As I'm sure a lot of people know during this time William Britains (in the view of many the original toy soldier maker) were going down hill, with patchy output at best! Untill they were bought out by the present owners.
While this was going on King and Country started to have figures made in China. I don't know why they made the figures so large but they did and it seams that since then every company that has had figures made in China has made large sized figures. Some times called 54mm, 1/32nd or 1/30th.
Anyway the easiest way to check a scale is to find something you know the size of e.g the length of a rifle then divide by 32 or whatever the scale is supposed to be, the model rifle should be that size.
I think though that the main reason that different companies have different sized figures is that the maker likes them that way, and they sell!
It would be interesting to know how many collectors on here started to collect before the internet or China.

Martin,

 

[Firebat]

How about this fantasy

At Chicago next year Ken Osen heads up a standards conference, with all of the manufacturers and their sculptors. They leave their ego's out of the room, and they come up with standards.

This is a perfect time to dispense with ego's, because all of the major companies are producing excellent products, not perfect, but excellent. So I don't think any manufacturer can carry an ego into the room. Some of the heavy forum supporters of particular manufacturers have more to do with the ego than the CEO of the company itself. That is one of my complaints of this forum.

As our popularity has grown, BSP has chosen our words carefully, yet we are never afraid to tell it as we see it. We introduced this thread with specific guidelines, and we would like to thank those who are participating for your professional and tempered conduct.

Besides entertainment and historical value one of the objectives of THE GREAT CRUSADE was to blend many manufacturers products in the presentation to give the collector / modeler a tool for comparison, which may be helpful in guiding their collection choices.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I want to state again we invited all of the manufacturers to join us, so we could be fair and balanced, and show we favor no one manufacturer. Well we were about 85% successful. We anticipated questions and some asking us for advise and we wanted to be able to respond without seeming to favor a particular manufacturer or manufacturers.

Once again, this topic can be successfully approached, when you remove agendas.

So in true BSP style......................... agenda people keep out. Alex

 

[fmethorst]

I personally would like to see the various size descriptors (54mm, 60mm, 90mm etc.) dispensed with since they are poorly defined (base of foot to eye, base of foot to top of head etc.) and they are meaningless when applied to non human miniatures (i.e. horse, tank, house etc.). As I've often stated scale is a ratio which is objective and measurable. For objects of known size such as vehicles and equipment there really is no wiggle room. The scale of an object can easily be determined with a ruler and simple math. Scale can also be used to check proportion since measurements and calculations in each of the three dimensions should yield the same result.

So the bottom line here is that "Scale" is already a standard. If something is stated to be 1:30 then 1 unit of X = 30 units of X on the full size object. The problem is that manufacturers don't necessarily adhere to the concept of scale as a ratio and unless collectors make this an issue with their wallets there is very little incentive to change.

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Again, I am in full agreement with Frank's comments.

What we need to understand is that often the marketing arm of a manufacturer will label something based on what they see in the market place. If a certain brand appears to have a strong market presence then the tendency is to think that if they label their products in a similar fashion that they will have a chance to share in those sales.

For many companies the problem can be the lack of a 'hands on' in house product development department. Designing or conceptualizing a figure, structure or vehicle is one thing, creating the model is something else. As long as the primary source of patterns are outside contractors, then there will be variations even withing a single brand.

I have even noticed that some vehicle models have had the crew hatches made larger than they should be just to accommodate oversize figures. Again although I understand this, if the figures were correctly scaled to the vehicles then this wouldn't be a problem.

With all of this said, many companies have built their business with a stylized look that effectively has become a type of branding. Although I agree with the philosophy that every product should not look the same as far as style, I believe everyone could do a better job with scale labeling. With more collectors requesting new vehicles, this is even more important.

No one manufacturer should expect to have absolute brand loyalty only based on marketing rhetoric, but on the delivery of a good product at a fair price.

Ken

 

[Martin Tabony]

The size /scale has been discused many time, but the fact is that as long as figures sell then a manufacturer will see no reason to change. As soon as collectors stops buying figures because they aren't made to a true scale then a manufacturer would have no choice but think more about scale. Especially as Ken says when there are brands where the company has all the work done by an out of house maker.

Martin