SdKfz 232 DAK (1 Viewer)

[Mitch]

well,bringing it back to CS and away from K&C and FL and all the mindless support they have to garner from their collectors!!!!

We have 1/30th jagdpanthers and RAD but, 1/28th scale figures still being released. A mate of mine is bringing the Schlepper and new PAK tommorow for me to see so, wonder what scale they are?

At this point I would say its same as we were gentlemen. two different sizes between figures and AFV's and, the Tiger I as I mentioned as an anomaly to see if making the AFV's would work with customers. I don't know if that was a test and see but, if you are going to make an AFV much bigger than anything else a tiger (which, always sells well no matter who makes it) is the one to do.

Unless I know absolutely nothing about scale which,has been mentioned LOL then it seems that we don't have the compatability we are told.

I, personally have no problem with the larger figures and smaller AFV's I want 1/30th scale AFV's first and foremost as that is important for me others, have different views about it. I just like clarity and, don't feel its very clear at all with CS however much I like the products
Mitch

 

[Peter Reuss]

Gents, this thread has hit a 'loop.' People are saying the same things over and over...but now with some added snarkiness and personal digs.

If you have something new to add to the discussion...fine. If not, perhaps it's time for this thread to go the way of the buffalo!

 

[Fitzgibbon]

I attended an Air Traffic Control conference at Lyon in the '70's and the contentious issue was an attempt to alter the international aviation language from English to French - the debate was heated and furiously contested. Until the Swiss Controllers Association had their say. "To be employed, we must speak a minimum of 14 languages; if Air France wants to speak French, we speak to the pilot in French; If Lufthansa wants to speak German, we reply in German; if the pilot speaks Japanese to us, we speak Japanes to the pilot; [heck] we even do American accents - so what is the problem?
I was a modeller then and have been so since. A part of that hobby is diorama and photography and the major issue here is to balance figure scale against ground scale compression - in the photo below, there are no fewer than six scales but the distance from the backdrop to the nearest horse's a..se is just 5 inches...

and likewise

Using the same backdrop with a much larger figure

It's just horses for courses - only a narrow issue if you don't want it to be a broad hobby...{sm4}

 

[Mitch]

Guys can we talk about CS not about the other two it has nothing to do with them and the needless defence that has to be done if anyone dares say anything about them. its heading for a shut down because of this crazyness

Fitz...

While I see what you are saying the problem here in the CS thread is scale of AFV's first and foremost
Mitch

 

[Fitzgibbon]

"While I see what you are saying the problem here in the CS thread is scale of AFV's first and foremost"
This appears to now be the nub of the sticking point. It is, however, no longer clear what the aim of the discussion is meant to be. Scale is a problem for most producers of representation articles. I've painted wargame figures for decades and it's never been any different. The technology improves of course, and paints today are a marvel by comparison with even just twenty years ago. The compromise with figure scale and ground scale is always just that - a compromise. I believe that Brian has made the valid point that most producers agree upon - consistency across their own range is the best that can be achieved. While there are some producers who collaborate with others for complementarity, the reality is that the market rules and competition for that market does not generally trend to 'competitive collaboration' as this is something of an oxymoron.
If the scale is consistent across the CS range, as it is for most others, then the problem comes down to mixing manufacturers for display purposes and this is a challenge for the purpose of the intended display - but problems are for solving. My own approach is the ground compression adjustment where I find the scale mixture advantageous but I'm not clear about the demand being made here of the manufacturer....?
For the record, I have problems with quality and have addressed those with a paint brush and the wonderfully improved technology of acrylics - and I don't think I'm a purist about British Scarlett but it is a distinctive colour...I'm sure you know what I mean. And I do relate to packaging problems and the use of super glue - strangely where the scale of fine items has been adhered to just a bit too stringently. Brown Bess to scale is very risky for packaging and travelling, particularly the beyonets.
Anyway, other than feedback about whether one will continue to buy or not buy, I'm wondering what demand or request the producer is meant to respond to......

 

[Mitch]

Thing is the scale across CS range is not consistant and, thats the reason why we are here. I think the discussion from some about mix and match from other manufacturers has confused the issue. CS states they ahve consistancy but, several of us have shown its not the case and, unless you have CS or, collect them you cannot understand. Its not about paint and style of paints etc as this has nothing to do with detail at all.

I would also disagree that Brian has attained the best level of scale consistancy that he can achieve. How can this be so when the AFV's are at one scale and figures at another. Consistancy of scale that we have been discussing is matching figures and AFV's at either 1/30th or 1/28th but, this is not happening as we have shown. Now, Brian disagrees and says they are compatable but, if thats the case why is the Jagdpanther and RAD which, we were discussing not at 1/28th scale????

As I tried to say this has nothing to do with other manufacturers, wargamers, or paint quality!!!! What is wanted is consistancy within a range so, customers do not have to go to the lengths of having dealers etc open and measure an AFV before purchasing to ensure it matches with what they have. I mean, the last Tiger I was marketed at 1/30th bang on and, yet when customers got it or, it was posted here it was blatently obvious it was not and, that was a departure from the pre existing statement that everything to that date was bang on 1/30th.

The producer could simply as you ask stick with one format and state it clearly its either 1/30th with 1/28th scale figures or 1/28th scale with 1/28th scale figures. This is simple to do. at the moment we have a mix of both depending on what release you look at the tiger I was 1/28th AFV V 1/28th figures yet the jagdpanther is 1/30th AFV V 1/28th figures.

Thats not consistancy and, thats the concern for some.
Mitch

"While I see what you are saying the problem here in the CS thread is scale of AFV's first and foremost"
This appears to now be the nub of the sticking point. It is, however, no longer clear what the aim of the discussion is meant to be. Scale is a problem for most producers of representation articles. I've painted wargame figures for decades and it's never been any different. The technology improves of course, and paints today are a marvel by comparison with even just twenty years ago. The compromise with figure scale and ground scale is always just that - a compromise. I believe that Brian has made the valid point that most producers agree upon - consistency across their own range is the best that can be achieved. While there are some producers who collaborate with others for complementarity, the reality is that the market rules and competition for that market does not generally trend to 'competitive collaboration' as this is something of an oxymoron.
If the scale is consistent across the CS range, as it is for most others, then the problem comes down to mixing manufacturers for display purposes and this is a challenge for the purpose of the intended display - but problems are for solving. My own approach is the ground compression adjustment where I find the scale mixture advantageous but I'm not clear about the demand being made here of the manufacturer....?
For the record, I have problems with quality and have addressed those with a paint brush and the wonderfully improved technology of acrylics - and I don't think I'm a purist about British Scarlett but it is a distinctive colour...I'm sure you know what I mean. And I do relate to packaging problems and the use of super glue - strangely where the scale of fine items has been adhered to just a bit too stringently. Brown Bess to scale is very risky for packaging and travelling, particularly the beyonets.
Anyway, other than feedback about whether one will continue to buy or not buy, I'm wondering what demand or request the producer is meant to respond to......

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Hmmm - I'm looking at my Steyr with its driver and passenger and they're looking quite comfortable to me; and I'm still wondering where you want to go with all this. Perhaps if you tried to frame your particular problem in terms of what can be done....pragmatism usually trumps emotion. The other glaringly obvious fact about the hobby is that it is about collecting "TOY SOLDIERS", rather than scale modelling. Perhaps I find it glaringly obvious because of where I've come from to get here; but, for a start, it's at the top of this page - it's the TOY SOLDIER FORUM. I've found it particularly interesting that the figures come quite close in terms of detail to the specialist kits I have previously been purchasing, and particularly economical considering they are painted to a reasonable standard - I paid 35 Euroes for my ADC figure and it was in small pieces requiring assembly - AND the belts had to be crafted AND then it required a full paint job. And this is what I buy still if I want the degree of specialty that appears to be asked here for a fraction of the price.

The hobby is also obviously a works in progress, and the advent of the net has made possible feedback in real time - and also made it possible to sustain a hobby that was rapidly in decline not so many years ago. The forum is a wonderful vehicle for sustaining the hobby and for allowing all hobbyists equal opportunity to access the people who produce the products, and even to influence the direction that production may take. Well done Treefrog.

 

[Mitch]

Fitzgibbon....

There is no emotion in this for me and I take umbridge to the fact that you imply that there is others have done that or implied it but, none from me. This is a straight forward discussion about a manufacturers inability to decide what scale they want their stock to be. 1/28th or 1/30th or a mix of both. Either way its not a problem as I have clearly said but, it has to be said what it is and, not use a set scale to cover something when it is clearly not. I see no emotion in that or, any obfuscation for any reader.

I also disagree with you that as this is toy soldiers it has little to do with scale. If thats so, why do they, the manufacturers label the items in terms of scale? why, do we have admissions of bang on 1/30th scale?? we have this ongoing debate and, if you care to look back at years ago on this form its was as important and, talked about then as it is now, because, the manufacturers don't get it right and some say they do.

I find it also difficult to accept that you do not know what is being asked for!! again, the word consistancy is what is being asked for just because your steyr matches then you seem to have no problem. I could list a good number of AFV's done by CS from Day one and, from the new bang on 1/30th announcement that are not and, are inconsistant with each other.

I am also not sure I would agree that the hobby is a work in progress. That implies that we are on a journey to a better place or, at least somewhere different to where we are. I don't think it will change and, what will change? not scale which, again is about what this thread is about not, modelling or paint issues that you have raised.

Not so sure that I agree that the hobby was in decline without the internet or forums. I know that K&CUK has done much to make the hobby what it is now and, they did that on the whole without the assistance of the internet. It has obviously helped but, I don't agree the internet has made the hobby especially as its been going and evolving for hundreds of years. I think the growth in matt 1/30/32nd scale stuff is directly attributable to them especially in the UK and europe.

Once again for clarity this was not about quality, paint style anyone else but, CS and their issues with scale pure and simple. also, this is my last post as its been said and, time to move on
Mitch

Hmmm - I'm looking at my Steyr with its driver and passenger and they're looking quite comfortable to me; and I'm still wondering where you want to go with all this. Perhaps if you tried to frame your particular problem in terms of what can be done....pragmatism usually trumps emotion. The other glaringly obvious fact about the hobby is that it is about collecting "TOY SOLDIERS", rather than scale modelling. Perhaps I find it glaringly obvious because of where I've come from to get here; but, for a start, it's at the top of this page - it's the TOY SOLDIER FORUM. I've found it particularly interesting that the figures come quite close in terms of detail to the specialist kits I have previously been purchasing, and particularly economical considering they are painted to a reasonable standard - I paid 35 Euroes for my ADC figure and it was in small pieces requiring assembly - AND the belts had to be crafted AND then it required a full paint job. And this is what I buy still if I want the degree of specialty that appears to be asked here for a fraction of the price.

The hobby is also obviously a works in progress, and the advent of the net has made possible feedback in real time - and also made it possible to sustain a hobby that was rapidly in decline not so many years ago. The forum is a wonderful vehicle for sustaining the hobby and for allowing all hobbyists equal opportunity to access the people who produce the products, and even to influence the direction that production may take. Well done Treefrog.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Aaah change! It is a wonderous phenomenon. My first disembowelled horse and its flat-profile plastic rider came from different Kellog's Corn Flakes packets - man, you had to eat a lot of corn flakes. I remember when Historex ruled the market and hobby shops were loaded with Airfix historical series. I remember Francois Verlinden as the doyen of diorama production ...and then fairly swiftly, Internet Games produced a competitive drain on the market that was depressing. Shops closed their doors in droves. But that same threat made it possible to compress a widely dispersed thin market in such a way that the hobby was again sustainable. It's just maths - why does it take two years to disperse a limited edition of 500 even using the net? Because the customer base is widely dispersed. Of course it's a works in progress and that is what makes it exciting - there are surprises yet to come. The competitive spirit that drives the market will produce many adaptations and, naturally, a drive for customer satisfaction; so let's not be impatient. I don't want to go back to Corn Flakes...moving on is good. I can buy Brian's products here on Oz and I don't have to go to UK for them. Vive change. A Hetzer in the US...wow. How about something in Oz, Brian?

 

[kilted vampire]

Hmmm - I'm looking at my Steyr with its driver and passenger and they're looking quite comfortable to me; and I'm still wondering where you want to go with all this. Perhaps if you tried to frame your particular problem in terms of what can be done....pragmatism usually trumps emotion. The other glaringly obvious fact about the hobby is that it is about collecting "TOY SOLDIERS", rather than scale modelling. Perhaps I find it glaringly obvious because of where I've come from to get here; but, for a start, it's at the top of this page - it's the TOY SOLDIER FORUM. I've found it particularly interesting that the figures come quite close in terms of detail to the specialist kits I have previously been purchasing, and particularly economical considering they are painted to a reasonable standard - I paid 35 Euroes for my ADC figure and it was in small pieces requiring assembly - AND the belts had to be crafted AND then it required a full paint job. And this is what I buy still if I want the degree of specialty that appears to be asked here for a fraction of the price.

The hobby is also obviously a works in progress, and the advent of the net has made possible feedback in real time - and also made it possible to sustain a hobby that was rapidly in decline not so many years ago. The forum is a wonderful vehicle for sustaining the hobby and for allowing all hobbyists equal opportunity to access the people who produce the products, and even to influence the direction that production may take. Well done Treefrog.

Good on you! If it looks good buy it! If you do not like it don't buy it. Bloody simple really. End of discussion.