Shame On The Manufacturer & The Seller! (2 Viewers)

[Sans Culotte]

I wanted to bring this item to everyones' attention because of the subject matter that's for sale. Even without that American politician's recent statements about "legitimate rape" and the worldwide comdemnation those statements have received, there never was a place in the toy soldier/model world for this sort of thing. When I brought this same topic up to a dealer long ago, who was selling a pirate raping a woman figure, the guy just shrugged and said, "they sell."

 

[theBaron]

I understand and respect youir opinion on this, and I don't want this kind of piece myself, but I think it's of a piece with Nazi subjects. It's a subject on which there are strong opinions, but I think the dealer's response is correct, they sell.

As far as graphic toy soldiers go, look to Ulrich Puchala's very adult series of figures engaged in explicit sexual acts, and Tim Richards' figures, for Phoenix (merely risque or ribald) and Mascot Models (explicit).

Not to forget Sanderson's pirate series, which, although it doesn't include figures quite as graphic, does include pirates chasing down women. His Romans include slaves and orgy figures, if I remember correctly.

De gustibus non disputandem, I wouldn't collect these, just as I choose not to collect Nazi subjects, but I can see where other folks do.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Napoleon1er]

I don't collect that kind of stuff, but, with my interest i the Peninsular campaign, I would not rule out the possibility of making a diorama that contains a historically accurate representation of rape, just as I would make a diorama depicting Spanish and French atrocities. For example, I have always wanted to make a diorama of the plundering after Vitoria, including the French officers' whores, who are an under-depicted segment of any army.
These things happened- I just don't think they should be depicted for the sake of guys who want toy soldier pornography- instead they should be used to help us remember the terrible things that actually happened.

 

[mikemiller1955]

I will defend the right for the manufacturer to make and sell this set...and any others like it...whether they display rape...torture or just plain old gruesome gory bloody figures (which I own plenty of)...

as we all know...some unimaginable atrocities...not just rape...did occur throughout history and still do...both in war and peacetimes...

but I wouldn't own it...it's a little too graphic for me...the image is just too controversial to me display on my shelf...

 

[Mitch]

Not my collecting period but, it depends on how ''realistic'' you want your collection. It does not offend me per se its a toy figure at the end of the day. I don't really know whether I would want a WWII style piece in my collection (not on my list of wants to fill my collection) though, if one were made it would depend on the manner its portrayed and the context for me to think about buying. Its the debate about how real we want our collections to be when portraying real events. Some don't mind some do. I don't think this glorifies or supports rape its just what happened at that time. Rape and pillage.
Mitch

 

[Sans Culotte]

Silly me....I thought that depictions of rape would surely be an out-of-bounds area. Does this then mean that some of you guys would defend depictions of child rape as well? After all, if we are to extend your logic, that has happened/does happen, and nothing, apparently,is off the table. In my years of teaching, I had MANY rape & incest victims as students, especially when I taught in Appalachia (1/3 of the kids in one school). Even if I hadn't come across so many cases, I still wouldn't/couldn't sanction such toy/model depictions. Scares me to think of model rape collectors sitting up nights admiring their purchases.

 

[theBaron]

Silly me....I thought that depictions of rape would surely be an out-of-bounds area. Does this then mean that some of you guys would defend depictions of child rape as well? After all, if we are to extend your logic, that has happened/does happen, and nothing, apparently,is off the table. In my years of teaching, I had MANY rape & incest victims as students, especially when I taught in Appalachia (1/3 of the kids in one school). Even if I hadn't come across so many cases, I still wouldn't/couldn't sanction such toy/model depictions. Scares me to think of model rape collectors sitting up nights admiring their purchases.

To extend your logic, you'd have some agent censoring content because it might offend someone. We told you that we wouldn't purchase this kind of material for our collections, and you obviously wouldn't, so what difference does it make? Collectors of Nazi figures sit up nights admiring their purchases, too. Should that material be banned? Rape is an evil of one person on another, but Nazism is the evil of a nation against all others, through the instrument of the State. That's pretty monstrous, too, isn't it. The topic offends some people, so shouldn't it be banned?

I can't tell you what to think, but I can give you advice and say that I wouldn't worry about the fact that a manufacturer makes this figure. As I pointed out before, there are far more graphic figures available. I don't think banning any of them solves the problem of preventing that behavior in the first place.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Mitch]

I think you take it too far which, may be down to the personal experiences you quote. I don't think many would admire the content of the act (if any) but, I would expect in the context of a scene with multiple figures related to that era that this set would fit in with those who have a historical interest in that period and, want say an authentic scene. I know collectors who have japanese samurai with beheadings etc not because they crave the gore etc but, because it fulfills the scene depicted accurately.

I also, as we venture of into the areas where people don't like the nazi's ... Again!!! would say that many don't like the chinese troops, VC and some, even dislike allied troops or brit colonial actions.. some don't even like defacating or urinating soldiers but, some do. they can admire their collections be they nazi or whatever without having to be judged by others who differ with their tastes or, accept what they stand for. As historians and collectors of that product I am always amazed when people become shocked by what is replicated in miniature (I understand some reactions but, still am amazed) as if Toy soldiers should be morally superior to everything else in society. why?? Rape, murder, the whole ten yards is regularly addressed in film and TV programmes. Its been a topic raised many times on here how far realism should be taken I suppose its down to each individual what they consider the line but, I don't think we should ever shame or restrict anyone from having the choice to buy what they like.

Thats the slippery road to start down IMO
Mitch

 

[mikemiller1955]

this has already turned into another thread I wish I had not commented on...

but to clear the air...I'm not defending rape...child rape or gory bloody sets...

manufacturers can make whatever they want...any set they want...

my protest will be in not purchasing it if it turns me off...

would I buy this set.............no!

would I be upset if you bought it...........no!

 

[Sans Culotte]

It's obvious from responses that there is a big disconnect between a number of feelings about the right to manufacture, sell, and buy depictions of rape & my absolute horror of the act & the sale of it period through whatever medium. I truly must come from another time & place in history, with my values & senses of shame. I have no compromise with rape.

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

Not my cup of tea, but the manufacturer and potential buyer certainly have the right to make, sell, and buy it.

 

[Napoleon1er]

It's obvious from responses that there is a big disconnect between a number of feelings about the right to manufacture, sell, and buy depictions of rape & my absolute horror of the act & the sale of it period through whatever medium. I truly must come from another time & place in history, with my values & senses of shame. I have no compromise with rape.

I just wanted to say, that while I have my opinion as previously stated, I really do get yours, and agree morally. I think what many are trying to say is that if we restrict freedom of expression- however hateful- we cause more harm than good.

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

I forgot to add. I don't see how this is any different then manufacturers offering figures like Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, and Goering, to name a few. Some of the most vile degenerates to ever live They ordered some of the worst atrocities in history. I have no problem with them being made and sold, I just choose not to buy them.

 

[larso]

I'm not interested in Hitler and his cronies as figures. I like action dios and the Nazi elite were (Berlin aside) a long way from any battle. Even so, I think that figures based on them are a completely different animal to ones depicting rape. I know that images of this crime abound on the internet, or can be freeze-framed from films - including Hollywood ones, but no if or buts, such gratuitous displays are offensive. Ask the question - would you be happy for your mother, sister, daughter (I'm assuming most buyers of these figures won't be married anymore) to see them in your collection? Imagine discussing it. Yes, they'd sell but so too does violent pornography and depictions of child abuse. Defending this one is a 'Bridge too Far'.

 

[AIDMAN]

I was not intending to react to this thread but there is a little feeling in the back of my mind that says..NO!!..NO!!..NO!!. I am all for the freedom of the person to do within reason and within the Law as he pleases. But there is also..within the bounds of decency and respect for others!!...This piece of trash i believe trancends this value. We can argue over strutting black uniformed SSers, Drunken Brownshirts. It is history, if people wish to have these figures in thier collections OK by me!. There was a lot of controversy over KCs Brownshirts at the time of release..Borderline stuff maybe, but i do not believe KC would go any further than what they did...So no Brownshirts beating up old men or raping young girls...and do we really need these items?? NO!!!!!!! Yes we all know that horrific things happen in all Wars, but other than dead and wounded soldiers i for one do not feel the need to put items like this on display in my house. The manufacturer has a right to produce this rubbish if he so wishes,the same way that a film producer has the right to make a film where innocent women are molested/raped/and murdered, I am free to turn off the television, which i do!!..I am also free to choose to bid or not to bid on this ugly, offending and immoral piece of trash....Which i wont!!!!!!!.

Steve

 

[Sans Culotte]

So, then, nothing is out-of-bounds, where the freedom to manufacture, sell & buy toys & models is concerned, including child rape? What a cop-out on the parts of the "freedom" defenders, to say "well I wouldn't buy it, but I'll defend the right to make it available." By extension, that implies that you wouldn't object to depictions of rape being made available through ANY means. You seem,then, to be more concerned with the freedom to do so rather than the act itself. Our arguments, then, are not reconcilable.

 

[theBaron]

It's obvious from responses that there is a big disconnect between a number of feelings about the right to manufacture, sell, and buy depictions of rape & my absolute horror of the act & the sale of it period through whatever medium. I truly must come from another time & place in history, with my values & senses of shame. I have no compromise with rape.

Neither do any of us. We just translate that into meaning that we wouldn't buy pieces that depict something with which we don't agree, rather than asking why something like this subject is allowed to be depicted and sold.

I think with your arguments, you're coming rather close to accusing us of supporting rape, because we don't agree that no one should be allowed to make or sell such figures.

 

[Sans Culotte]

Neither do any of us. We just translate that into meaning that we wouldn't buy pieces that depict something with which we don't agree, rather than asking why something like this subject is allowed to be depicted and sold.

I think with your arguments, you're coming rather close to accusing us of supporting rape, because we don't agree that no one should be allowed to make or sell such figures.

Only if the shoe fits.

 

[Jack]

What a cop-out on the parts of the "freedom" defenders, to say "well I wouldn't buy it, but I'll defend the right to make it available."

Just to attempt to return the argument to the abstract rather than the more emotionally charged discussion, the description of the 'freedom defenders' is actually paraphrasing the ideal of a free society. One of the real difficulties of living in a society that is both free and functioning is that at a practical level we must all embrace hypocrisy at some level. I believe in a free society but also accept that censorship must protect the vulnerable. The difficulty of who decides and how is always problematic and the issue here is a demaraction problem - where is the line drawn at what is acceptable? Tour buses visit concentration camps, cigarettes are still freely available, boxing is an Olympic sport, the right to purchase an AK-47 - where is the line drawn is always an emotional point.

As an associated, though quite different point, as a newbie two things in these discussions always intrigue me:

1. The male abhorence of rape but our 'acceptance' of violence. Censorship of TV and movies have always been stricter on issues of sex than violence.

2. The repetitive discussions of the morality of certain toy soldiers against the background of complaints about rising prices brought on by Chinese factory workers who in their greedy view of the world aspire to the lifestyle that I take for granted.

I do suggest, respectfully, that the 'if the shoe fits' as a response to a calm and rational comment in a thread you started might, for me, have crossed the line. Again, that is me, and people are free to disagree.

For the record, however, I wouldn't buy the figure, wouldn't keep it if was given to me, wouldn't sell it and do not understand why someone would buy it.

But that's me!

Jack

 

[maddadicus]

Only if the shoe fits.

As far as I am concerned, you have crossed the line as to insinuation against fellow forum members, who choose to have a different opinion than you. If you have a problem with the offending figure, you are able to file a complant on Ebay. That would have been a hero of your convictions moment. But you instead chose instead to be the poor victim bystander, gutless to stand up, but not so small as to try to egg the crowd on to cry out in shock. It did not work and so you whine against the crowd and try to paint some shame on us. Nice try, but it seems the problem is with you and Ebay. It always has been. Go bother them..Michael