Soldier Costs Not Equal Debate.. (1 Viewer)

[maddadicus]

It strikes me that as the cost of toy soldiers and vehicles escalate, there is not a fair and balanced member response to the issue, dependent on the mfg. Some seem intent to take verbal potshots at the new K/C higher prices, yet not a peep to the always high end lists for First Legion items. They started the $300 buck for a vehicle and $50 for one figure free for all, yet there was no outrage to those price points. In fact we were told by members that their offerings were works of art and worth every penny. Members go from forum to forum beating down the K/C price scale, but why no peep on the F/L scale? C/S and Figarti still offer lower prices at the present and should be immune from the " overpriced debate ", but it seems to me that K/C is taking more heat than usual, when they are not the highest priced mfg. around...Some members come across as having an agenda, but we ought not be hypocrites about it..Michael

 

[kogu]

The difference is the price/quality ratio.
If I would buy a single K&C figure for $32.00, I would find it rather expensive for what I get. The prices are getting higher, the quality doesn't.
If I would buy a single FL figure for $50.00, I would think it is a bargain, cause until they started releasing their products, I had to pay north of $100.00 for a single foot figure in comparable quality from some Russian Studios.
So, for a while, FL will maintain a better quality/price ratio, I am sure.
Konrad

 

[jazzeum]

First Legion is connoisseur quality at less than connoisseur prices. That is the difference. If you owned some you would see how good they are.

 

[Mitch]

The reason is K&C is the biggest manufacturer and therefore a easier target.
I do think K&C takes flak for the rest of the hobby. I also think that because other manufacturers do not release with the same intent or output as K&C their releases slip under the radar of collectors in terms of price though, that does not mean they are cheap its just sometimes collectors are dazzled by terminology and more shading.

Good post
Mitch

 

[Rutledge]

First Legion is connoisseur quality at less than connoisseur prices. That is the difference. If you owned some you would see how good they are.

Just to recognize - FL's difference with K&C is not magic. The key difference is FL's distribution model. Without dealers K&C could offer an individual figure at roughly half. Going through US dealers FL would have to roughly double its price.

Its not fair to compare the comapnies' products, straight up, without taking that significant difference into account.

To those who'd prefer the industry abandon the dealer distribution model so collector prices would be more "affordable", I say be careful what you wish for.

 

[jazzeum]

I don't know about fair but it's more like apples to oranges. I don't know that they're necessarily appealing to the same market although there is some crossover. However, as to use of dealers, this may be applicable to the USA but I think in other countries FL uses dealers I believe although I haven't done a price comparison nor have any real desire to do so since I don't live in those countries.

 

[Mitch]

There are a couple of dealers in the UK prices are the same
Mitch

 

[lancer]

I don't really have a specific company to complain about. They are ALL getting too expensive. On the low end, $30-35 figures are too high and the $50-55 figures were never in my equation anyway. I'm not cheap, just very resticted on what I can spend as I watch what my dollar buys lessen in quantity by the month (it seems so, anyway). As I have mentioned elsewhere, I have quit on figures to concentrate on my favorite, WW1 aircraft, and this will become a problem if (and they will) prices go up too much more. My real fear is that this is becoming a rich man's hobby and that there will soon be no room for collectors like me that have small and shrinking budgets. I will go down fighting, though. Just love it too much. -- Al

 

[Currahee Chris]

The difference is the price/quality ratio.
If I would buy a single K&C figure for $32.00, I would find it rather expensive for what I get. The prices are getting higher, the quality doesn't.
If I would buy a single FL figure for $50.00, I would think it is a bargain, cause until they started releasing their products, I had to pay north of $100.00 for a single foot figure in comparable quality from some Russian Studios.
So, for a while, FL will maintain a better quality/price ratio, I am sure.
Konrad

I agree with Konrad and Brad in general. I don't see FL as Russian quality figures but they do fantastic work- I don't own any, nor have any plans on obtaining any in the near future, but have seen them and believe their quality is a bit higher than KCs- at least, higher enough to warrant the price increase.

I think with KC too that people remember the old days (ie 1999, 2000, etc) when figures were $17 or even $15 each, AFVs were $85 and 2 man sets were less than one man sets now. KC has the history behind them now where they get criticized for price gouging perhaps and a lot of the Johnny come latelys are simply falling in line and matching current prices.

 

[Currahee Chris]

I don't really have a specific company to complain about. They are ALL getting too expensive. On the low end, $30-35 figures are too high and the $50-55 figures were never in my equation anyway. I'm not cheap, just very resticted on what I can spend as I watch what my dollar buys lessen in quantity by the month (it seems so, anyway). As I have mentioned elsewhere, I have quit on figures to concentrate on my favorite, WW1 aircraft, and this will become a problem if (and they will) prices go up too much more. My real fear is that this is becoming a rich man's hobby and that there will soon be no room for collectors like me that have small and shrinking budgets. I will go down fighting, though. Just love it too much. -- Al

Great post- go down fighting- gotta love that!!

I agree with you and the fact that this hobby is going in that direction- funny thing as I believe KC used to state that they sold affordable toy soldiers to collectors. It seems they have moved away from that.

I also blame ebay on the price increases as well- if I am ACN and I consistently see people paying 2-4x the inital asking prices for sets on ebay- you can't blame the guy for wondering why he isn't boosting his prices and putting more coin in his pocket- nothing wrong with that.

I have come to the conclusion that I can only afford one KC line anymore- Egyptians- and I am content with that. I think a lot of people will need to do the same as well.

 

[Mitch]

Good points and, I did raise similar issues about collectors budgets a while back in a thread where I was berated for saying that manufacturers will really need to address these very real concerns. I did not agree then, and still don't now, that adding new ranges or similar addresses the issue of rising costs. That is a benefit to manufacturers enticing new collectors to keep sales high not, deal with long term collectors who are the lifeblood of the hobby being further and further pushed from the hobby.
Mitch

 

[Currahee Chris]

I did not agree then, and still don't now, that adding new ranges or similar addresses the issue of rising costs. That is a benefit to manufacturers enticing new collectors to keep sales high not, deal with long term collectors who are the lifeblood of the hobby being further and further pushed from the hobby.
Mitch

Actually, it does but I won't send the forum into a cost accounting coma discussing the points of fact there. Short of it- more items being produced, more items to absorb the costs. Compare a KC single figure priced at $32 or whatever and a St. Pete figure at $165. Admittedly, there are other reaons behind the pricing but volume does help hold costs (fixed costs <<cringe- accounting speak!! >>> down.

 

[Gazza]

Firsly, I do not think that price issues are directed solely at KC. Other companies have been challenged on this - FL, especially their tanks; Figarti on their shock and awe pieces etc.

Secondly, FL DOES sell through dealers. Yes, they are largely direct in the US but Minuteman sells them. In the UK there are multiple dealers. As KC prices near FL prices - one has to question whether the quality is comparable. Looking at the Crusaders - for me FL are far better.

Thirdly, I do not think KC is an easier target or challenged because they are allegedly the biggest - they are challenged because their prices have increased significantly in the past two years. The reasons for price increases have been explained. However, TGunn and CS in particular, continue to produce compatible products that are significantly cheaper in the UK. As some one who started out with KC it is disappointing to see this trend because it means I have changed to other maunfacturers.

Comparison of prices and why in the UK it is noticeable:

Scots Greys - CS GBP60 v KC GBP80.77

Tanks - CS King Tiger GBP145 v KC Snow Tiger GBP234.84

Artillery - TG Pak 38 2 crew GBP65 v KC Pak 38 3 crew GBP158.25

Cheers

Gazza

 

[Rutledge]

Firsly, I do not think that price issues are directed solely at KC. Other companies have been challenged on this - FL, especially their tanks; Figarti on their shock and awe pieces etc.

Secondly, FL DOES sell through dealers. Yes, they are largely direct in the US but Minuteman sells them. In the UK there are multiple dealers. As KC prices near FL prices - one has to question whether the quality is comparable. Looking at the Crusaders - for me FL are far better.

Thirdly, I do not think KC is an easier target or challenged because they are allegedly the biggest - they are challenged because their prices have increased significantly in the past two years. The reasons for price increases have been explained. However, TGunn and CS in particular, continue to produce compatible products that are significantly cheaper in the UK. As some one who started out with KC it is disappointing to see this trend because it means I have changed to other maunfacturers.

Comparison of prices and why in the UK it is noticeable:

Scots Greys - CS GBP60 v KC GBP80.77

Tanks - CS King Tiger GBP145 v KC Snow Tiger GBP234.84

Artillery - TG Pak 38 2 crew GBP65 v KC Pak 38 3 crew GBP158.25

Cheers

Gazza

Minuteman is a "show only" dealer. George can sell all the FL he wants at the shows, and no doubt its a valuable service. But FL is not available through dealers/online in the US. So no, FL DOES not sell through dealers in the US. They will gladly confirm this for you - its not a "secret strategy".

Europe is likely different because its about the only/best financial way to get the word out across different cultures/languages and they dont have a distribution arm there. The reason the prices are basically equivalent? - to prevent arbitrage most likely (people buying at "cheaper" US prices and the re-selling to Europe)
Thus FL margins are likely much smaller in Europe - but perhaps as someone once said, something of something is better than all of nothing.

 

[Spitfrnd]

I agree with Konrad and Brad in general. I don't see FL as Russian quality figures but they do fantastic work- I don't own any, nor have any plans on obtaining any in the near future, but have seen them and believe their quality is a bit higher than KCs- at least, higher enough to warrant the price increase.

I think with KC too that people remember the old days (ie 1999, 2000, etc) when figures were $17 or even $15 each, AFVs were $85 and 2 man sets were less than one man sets now. KC has the history behind them now where they get criticized for price gouging perhaps and a lot of the Johnny come latelys are simply falling in line and matching current prices.

I think Konrad is exactly correct. Frankly, by any reasonable measure, the FL figures I have are as good or better than the comparable Russian figures and K&C and CS are not really in the same category. I honestly wish I could be satisfied by their offerings but if you appreciate the differences, it is rather hard to surpress your perceptial skills. As always, price increases are unfortunate and will limit or even eliminate access for some, including myself, but in the end, the market will dictate and no matter who says what about it, it will be what it will be. In this election, the only votes that count are those cast with dollars and pounds, etc.

 

[lancer]

Firsly, I do not think that price issues are directed solely at KC. Other companies have been challenged on this - FL, especially their tanks; Figarti on their shock and awe pieces etc.

Secondly, FL DOES sell through dealers. Yes, they are largely direct in the US but Minuteman sells them. In the UK there are multiple dealers. As KC prices near FL prices - one has to question whether the quality is comparable. Looking at the Crusaders - for me FL are far better.

Thirdly, I do not think KC is an easier target or challenged because they are allegedly the biggest - they are challenged because their prices have increased significantly in the past two years. The reasons for price increases have been explained. However, TGunn and CS in particular, continue to produce compatible products that are significantly cheaper in the UK. As some one who started out with KC it is disappointing to see this trend because it means I have changed to other maunfacturers.

Comparison of prices and why in the UK it is noticeable:

Scots Greys - CS GBP60 v KC GBP80.77

Tanks - CS King Tiger GBP145 v KC Snow Tiger GBP234.84

Artillery - TG Pak 38 2 crew GBP65 v KC Pak 38 3 crew GBP158.25

Cheers

Gazza

These price differences are shocking. Anyone know why the gap is so large on products that are pretty equal? -- Al

 

[Currahee Chris]

Frankly, by any reasonable measure, the FL figures I have are as good or better than the comparable Russian figures

I still give the nod to the St Pete figures but feel like the price difference is so vast that it more than bridges the artistic difference. In the end, St. Pete is the Rolls Royce of the TS world. At the end of the day though, I would gladly take 3 First Legion romans over a St. Pete $165 roman

 

[uksubs]

Well I think K&C are still making great stuff but for me there pricing people out of the market , for over £200.00 for a tank /plane I think I can spend my money better else where & I'm not talking toy soldiers

 

[Mitch]

Hmm, money not spent on toy soldiers.... Party hearty!!!! Yeah!! lol
Mitch

Well I think K&C are still making great stuff but for me there pricing people out of the market , for over £200.00 for a tank /plane I think I can spend my money better else where & I'm not talking toy soldiers

 

[VIRIATO]

The difference is the price/quality ratio.
If I would buy a single K&C figure for $32.00, I would find it rather expensive for what I get. The prices are getting higher, the quality doesn't.
If I would buy a single FL figure for $50.00, I would think it is a bargain, cause until they started releasing their products, I had to pay north of $100.00 for a single foot figure in comparable quality from some Russian Studios.
So, for a while, FL will maintain a better quality/price ratio, I am sure.
Konrad

You've said better than me Konrad, this simplifies my post... Choices on this depend on individual taste, budget, room, etc... Any choice is respectable, including the K&C choices. I have some K&C items I intend to keep because I like them very much. But when it comes to comparing prices with FL you have to compare quality too (sculpting, detail, painting), which is obviously different and decide if you want K&C's deal or FL's. I for one pend towards FL even if I have to get less figures..

Paulo