Brad,
This is very interesting and informative info. I never knew any of this!
Thank you,
Joe
Hi Joe,
I certainly don't consider myself and expert on Horses, and Brad seems to be a great guy who is also a big fan and collector of the armies of FdG and I respect him as a fellow Historian who has a great deal of knowledge in the subject. I'm sure we have all the same references and I know where he got his ideas on this but I really wouldn't say the horse colors are wrong. It seems a bit harsh, to me.
There are a lot of things to consider, In peace time I would say maybe but in campaigns were thousands of horses are lost which have to replaced well things change and you must make exceptions. I will just quote the sources where he got this from and let everyone make up their own minds.
" The mount par excellence of the cuirassiers and dragons was the powerful native horse of north Germany, and in particular the long winded Holstein animal - a rather lighter creature than the breed of the same name in the nineteenth century ".
" Dark horses were believed to be the best , thus in 1751 Frederick stipulated that the very blackest horses should go to the Cuirassiers, and those of passable black or blackish-brown "
Consider this the battle First Legion are portraying is Kunersdorf which took place in 1759 eight years and many Battles after Frederick said this back in 1751.
" By a variety of expedients Frederick was able to make up for the dreadful wastage of horseflesh in the seven years war. He lost 20,000 horse in a single campaign. " Horses were gathered in Mecklenburg, large roundups in Thuringia, Saxony and a very large number of "polish" horses .
" The cuirassiers kept their German horses, though even these began to fall below the earlier standards "
Just one more thing on Horses and I'm out " Fredrick's own preference was for what he called 'the ancient race of English horses'. " The Generals of his suite rode English horses of the same kind, and the regulations pointed out to the army that this was a good way of recognizing the royal entourage"
Like I said I know nothing about Horses but every reference and painting showing these horses seem to show me they would be fine. Including illustrator Günter Dorn and the great historian Joachim Engelmann who I consider some of the foremost authorities on the subject. The color of the breed in question seem to resemble the color of the figures to me.
I certainly think Brad is entitled to his opinion and I respect it but to me they are fine based on the same research. ... And I'm certainly not gonna argue about it. Gebhard
Bill (spitfrnd) when he was a member here who is an expert on Horses had this to say about the same subject and Brads qoute someone posted on another forum back when he made it.
"Well Brad is one of the people on TF I do respect as well and I really have little knowledge of Fredrick's wars. However, I suspect I do know some things about horses and what I don't know I can now ask by walking a few yards from the house and asking one. :lol: I can imagine a preference for true black horses but in the end, it is only a "hair color" and it doesn't guarantee the best mount. The Holstein breed they reference is one of the smaller, older and most respected breeds and did have a preponderance of dark bay horses. Ironically, it is the breed of my two as well. There are certainly black Holsteiners but they are not nearly common, probably less so that greys. That said, the quality of the breed was and is very consistent and thus I suspect they could have found a sufficient number of good black horses to equip a few units of Cuirassiers but I am not so sure they could have done that for many units, especially over 8 years of warfare. Even keeping horses sound when they are not being shot out is a challenge so attrition would indeed be a real problem, especially for a relatively small breed like that and on campaign, a preference for color would be among the first things to be compromised..
Now FL's horse sculpts are not breed specific but they do look like a modern Holsteiner, which is a bit akin to the type described in the quotes. In fact, one of the British Blues is mounted on a horse that looks nearly like my younger one. These sculpts I believe are variations on those. So I think Brad's rivets are a bit out of line here since for the battle referenced, it is more than likely some of the Cuirassiers were mounted on other colors than black, if not well before that for the reasons mentioned in the quotes. I can also say that no matter the color, then depending on the time of year, the coat could also appear lighter than it might otherwise. Typically the coats are the darkest in the winter. Of course, I wasn't there but then neither was he."
