Ten most decisive battles in world history (2 Viewers)

[Mitch]

Debrito...

Whilst I agree with you about the drain on the german war machine that fighting on the russian front did. The fact that had the russians not been involved or, knocked out sufficiently for the german troops used their to move westwards, like the Kursk offensive was planned to do, the west would have been markedly different.

The Battle of Britain was a victory and, it cannot really be seen as anything other. The german luftwaffe was stopped in its tracks and was badly mauled. It can be argued, that in numbers of aircraft and, airmen they lost, never really recovered. It may not have changed anything overnight and, there were tough times ahead in Afrika and, in the Atlantic to come, this was, the first real defeat, the armed forces of the germans had faced. It did show the world that this invincible machine with pioneering tactics in modern warfare could be stopped.

I know what Churchill said but, I think in relation to that speech he was addressing land forces as he said different things re the outcome of it. I cannot, unless its differing views of what a defeat is, see how this could be construed as anything other. I do know that the RAF went onto the offensive after this so, if it had been a victory for the germans how could this be so.

I think this was the turning point in the war as Hitler believed the English to be all but out of the conflict and, turned his attention eastwards. This early turn east was the straw that broke the camels back, so, to speak.
Mitch

 

[debrito]

Good and fair post....

regards.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Debrito...

Whilst I agree with you about the drain on the german war machine that fighting on the russian front did. The fact that had the russians not been involved or, knocked out sufficiently for the german troops used their to move westwards, like the Kursk offensive was planned to do, the west would have been markedly different.

The Battle of Britain was a victory and, it cannot really be seen as anything other. The german luftwaffe was stopped in its tracks and was badly mauled. It can be argued, that in numbers of aircraft and, airmen they lost, never really recovered. It may not have changed anything overnight and, there were tough times ahead in Afrika and, in the Atlantic to come, this was, the first real defeat, the armed forces of the germans had faced. It did show the world that this invincible machine with pioneering tactics in modern warfare could be stopped.

I know what Churchill said but, I think in relation to that speech he was addressing land forces as he said different things re the outcome of it. I cannot, unless its differing views of what a defeat is, see how this could be construed as anything other. I do know that the RAF went onto the offensive after this so, if it had been a victory for the germans how could this be so.

I think this was the turning point in the war as Hitler believed the English to be all but out of the conflict and, turned his attention eastwards. This early turn east was the straw that broke the camels back, so, to speak.
Mitch

I agree with Mitch, and would add that in one of Churchill's most famous speeches, Winston stated, concerning victory in the Battle of Britain, that "never in the course of human endeavor have so many owed so much to so few."

Not only was the Battle of Britain the first true allied victory of WWII, it was far more important to the outcome of the war than El Alamein. If the RAF and the incredibly brave British public, who endured the Luftwaffe's bombing offensive, does not persevere and win the Battle of Britain, the Nazis obtain total air supremacy and can sink the British fleet from the air if it attempts to interdict a cross-channel invasion. In one fell swoop, the Nazis would eliminate both Britain and the United States from the war in Europe (as without Britain as an unsinkable aircraft carrier, the United States has no base from which to enter the war in Europe and North Africa). The Nazis can then focus exclusively on attacking the Soviets, and possibly win the war outright.

If the Allies lose at El Alamein, and can't push through Rommells lines, the Afrika Corps still lacks adequate fuel, supplies, reinforcements and equipment to push forward, has incredibly long supply lines, and is suffering under British Air Supremacy. In a short time the United States would be landing in Tunesia (Operation Torch) and opening a second front in North Africa, forcing the Afrika Corps to abandon its forward position in Egypt in order to counter the American offensive. With the Nazis locked in a death struggle in Russia, Rommell would never be able to get the supplies and reinforcements he needed to hang on in Africa, regardless of the outcome of El Alamein.

 

[maddadicus]

"Two very critical battles in my life, where as a sixth grader we twice defeated the powerful seventh graders in snow ball fights with tactics I employed from Cowpens and the early Greeks."

Always a great strategy to have the geeks rush the bullies ,girlie throw the first snowball volley and then run away ,leading the bullies to rush into your main line of defense, the cool kids..Is that how it went? Michael

 

[Rob]

Excellent posts both.

The Battle of Britain was indeed the first major strategic defeat the Germans suffered , despite hurling the weight of the famous Luftwaffe against these Islands they simply could not continue to take the punishment inflicted on them by the RAF. The daily attrition of lost bombers and fighters was not sustainable for the Germans, likewise Luftwaffe morale began to slump as the battle went on. It was this defeat that prevented the invasion and ensured Britain would remain free and not only a beacon of hope for Europe but more importantly a staging post for the biggest seaborne invasion in History and the liberation of the occupied countries of Europe. Wth America able to bring its immense military might and manpower to these Islands it ensured a much quicker end to the War than if the British had lost the Battle of Britain. It is for this reason that the Battle of Britian not only stands as one of the most pivotal battles of WW2 but also echoes down the decades as one of the greatest in History as generations of British and Europeans enjoy freedom to this very day because of it.

I would also echo Louis's point about the British public in this period. It was their bravery, their stoicism, their determination that helped ensure the whole country was behind the RAF in their victory.

Rob

Debrito...

Whilst I agree with you about the drain on the german war machine that fighting on the russian front did. The fact that had the russians not been involved or, knocked out sufficiently for the german troops used their to move westwards, like the Kursk offensive was planned to do, the west would have been markedly different.

The Battle of Britain was a victory and, it cannot really be seen as anything other. The german luftwaffe was stopped in its tracks and was badly mauled. It can be argued, that in numbers of aircraft and, airmen they lost, never really recovered. It may not have changed anything overnight and, there were tough times ahead in Afrika and, in the Atlantic to come, this was, the first real defeat, the armed forces of the germans had faced. It did show the world that this invincible machine with pioneering tactics in modern warfare could be stopped.

I know what Churchill said but, I think in relation to that speech he was addressing land forces as he said different things re the outcome of it. I cannot, unless its differing views of what a defeat is, see how this could be construed as anything other. I do know that the RAF went onto the offensive after this so, if it had been a victory for the germans how could this be so.

I think this was the turning point in the war as Hitler believed the English to be all but out of the conflict and, turned his attention eastwards. This early turn east was the straw that broke the camels back, so, to speak.
Mitch

I agree with Mitch, and would add that in one of Churchill's most famous speeches, Winston stated, concerning victory in the Battle of Britain, that "never in the course of human endeavor have so many owed so much to so few."

Not only was the Battle of Britain the first true allied victory of WWII, it was far more important to the outcome of the war than El Alamein. If the RAF and the incredibly brave British public, who endured the Luftwaffe's bombing offensive, does not persevere and win the Battle of Britain, the Nazis obtain total air supremacy and can sink the British fleet from the air if it attempts to interdict a cross-channel invasion. In one fell swoop, the Nazis would eliminate both Britain and the United States from the war in Europe (as without Britain as an unsinkable aircraft carrier, the United States has no base from which to enter the war in Europe and North Africa). The Nazis can then focus exclusively on attacking the Soviets, and possibly win the war outright.

If the Allies lose at El Alamein, and can't push through Rommells lines, the Afrika Corps still lacks adequate fuel, supplies, reinforcements and equipment to push forward, has incredibly long supply lines, and is suffering under British Air Supremacy. In a short time the United States would be landing in Tunesia (Operation Torch) and opening a second front in North Africa, forcing the Afrika Corps to abandon its forward position in Egypt in order to counter the American offensive. With the Nazis locked in a death struggle in Russia, Rommell would never be able to get the supplies and reinforcements he needed to hang on in Africa, regardless of the outcome of El Alamein.

 

[Currahee Chris]

I am going to celebrate my 200th post with a thread hijacking!

If this post were to read 'the ten most decisive events in world history' not one of these battles would make the list. Battles, and by extension, wars, are seldom decisive events in themselves. They do not usher in a new world, they are generally the death rattle of the old. The longer the war the less likely there is to be any really significant turning point in history - this is distinct from influence, because of course they change things, but never as decisively as those involved in such life and death struggles think.

I don't think this is a hi"jack"ing {sm4}

Interesting position- Some folks have hit on the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and I intentionally omitted that from my list as I felt it really wasnt a battle but I would be hard pressed to not rank that in the top 5 events of human history- those days of fall 1945 really created a new world in my opinion. Nations began to be evaluated by nuclear strenght or capabilities where pre 1945, it was economic, military, etc.

 

[VIRIATO]

For me being Portuguese, the battle of Aljubarrota in 1385, the Portuguese defeated the Spanish invaders, with the help of English archers, a decisive moment that not only sealed this defensive war but also Portugal's alliance with Britain, the oldest still standing I believe (king John I then married a certain Philippa of Lancaster, as in politics through weddings...).
Also of course the Battle of Britain and Stalingrad come to mind, in my view 2 decisive turning points in WW2. Also Midway, for the same reasons. And Waterloo, the end of an era.
Interesting thread, you've got to thank the father...

Paulo

 

[debrito]

I agree with Mitch, and would add that in one of Churchill's most famous speeches, Winston stated, concerning victory in the Battle of Britain, that "never in the course of human endeavor have so many owed so much to so few."

Not only was the Battle of Britain the first true allied victory of WWII, it was far more important to the outcome of the war than El Alamein. If the RAF and the incredibly brave British public, who endured the Luftwaffe's bombing offensive, does not persevere and win the Battle of Britain, the Nazis obtain total air supremacy and can sink the British fleet from the air if it attempts to interdict a cross-channel invasion. In one fell swoop, the Nazis would eliminate both Britain and the United States from the war in Europe (as without Britain as an unsinkable aircraft carrier, the United States has no base from which to enter the war in Europe and North Africa). The Nazis can then focus exclusively on attacking the Soviets, and possibly win the war outright.

If the Allies lose at El Alamein, and can't push through Rommells lines, the Afrika Corps still lacks adequate fuel, supplies, reinforcements and equipment to push forward, has incredibly long supply lines, and is suffering under British Air Supremacy. In a short time the United States would be landing in Tunesia (Operation Torch) and opening a second front in North Africa, forcing the Afrika Corps to abandon its forward position in Egypt in order to counter the American offensive. With the Nazis locked in a death struggle in Russia, Rommell would never be able to get the supplies and reinforcements he needed to hang on in Africa, regardless of the outcome of El Alamein.

We all are a product of GEOGRAPHY, different persons, from different countries with different points of view. Some like or have the need to glorify whatever his country did or does, (would like to hear from a Russian perspective) others just listen and enjoy, but whatever happens these arguments are very rich and entertained...

Cheers.

 

[Mitch]

Debrito...

You make some very good points. I would view the BOB as what I had stated even if I was not an Englishman with a relative who fought in the battle. I was, when this thread began going to put some of the victories the germans had in the early days against Russia, which, have gone down in the annals of military history as superb actions. but, I am already tarnished as some german voice piece so, stuck with the ones I put initially.
Mitch

We all are a product of GEOGRAPHY, different persons, from different countries with different points of view. Some like or have the need to glorify whatever his country did or does, (would like to hear from a Russian perspective) others just listen and enjoy, but whatever happens these arguments are very rich and entertained...

Cheers.

 

[Louis Badolato]

We all are a product of GEOGRAPHY, different persons, from different countries with different points of view. Some like or have the need to glorify whatever his country did or does, (would like to hear from a Russian perspective) others just listen and enjoy, but whatever happens these arguments are very rich and entertained...

Cheers.

I was merely commenting on the Battle of Britain and its importance in the overall outcome of WWII. The Soviets defeated approximately 75% of Nazi divisions, so clearly the mistake that was Operation Barbarossa, the Nazi disaster at Stalingrad and the subsequent Nazi disaster at Kursk were as important if not more so as far as decisive battles go. While the Soviets were up to the task of defeating 75% of the Nazi divisions, while the Germans were getting bombed round the clock by the British and the Americans, and losing more than 2/3 of their warplanes and experienced aircrews fighting the Allied bomber offensive, I am not so sure that they could have handled 100% of the Nazi war effort without Britain and the United States fighting on their side. Should they be given the lions share of the credit for defeating the Nazis? I would say yes. 20 Million casualties earned them that right. Should they be given all the credit for winning the war? Absolutely not.

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

I was merely commenting on the Battle of Britain and its importance in the overall outcome of WWII. The Soviets defeated approximately 75% of Nazi divisions, so clearly the mistake that was Operation Barbarossa, the Nazi disaster at Stalingrad and the subsequent Nazi disaster at Kursk were as important if not more so as far as decisive battles go. While the Soviets were up to the task of defeating 75% of the Nazi divisions, while the Germans were getting bombed round the clock by the British and the Americans, and losing more than 2/3 of their warplanes and experienced aircrews fighting the Allied bomber offensive, I am not so sure that they could have handled 100% of the Nazi war effort without Britain and the United States fighting on their side. Should they be given the lions share of the credit for defeating the Nazis? I would say yes. 20 Million casualties earned them that right. Should they be given all the credit for winning the war? Absolutely not.

If the Russians have keeped out of WW2 and Hitler did not invade would the rest of the Allies been able to stop them. We all could have children with blond hair and blue eyes. Hang on my wife and children have and here maiden name was Herrman. Simmo.

 

[waynepoo]

If the Russians have keeped out of WW2 and Hitler did not invade would the rest of the Allies been able to stop them. We all could have children with blond hair and blue eyes. Hang on my wife and children have and here maiden name was Herrman. Simmo.

Simmo,
Consider this, Do think Germany could have constructed a navy on scale that the U.S did? Interesting isn't it, They may have become masters of Europe but I don't think they could have ever got across Atlantic.
Cheers mate.
Waynepoo.

 

[Mitch]

Had the germans taken Russia and, moved further into the areas of the country the urals etc they would not have needed to cross the Atlantic. They could have came in from the back door and the chukota penninsula and, cross the baring straits.

All hypothetical but, imagine what that would have done to the US with germany at her doorstep able to launch bombing raids on the US whilst, they were possibly still fighting the japanese???

Its also daunting the raw materials that would have been at the hands of such a technologically competant country like germany. Its always interested me in what would have been the reaction had the US had to suffer the airial bombing to the extent other countries faced.

Thats why the tenacity of the brits and things like the Battle of Britain are so important. Industrial might is important and the sheer size of populations of russia and US but, how many times did the russians complain, in desperation, for the allies to attack targets in the west and Africa to ease the pressure on the russian forces?? Quite a lot.

Fortunately, germany faced the world and was defeated in a combined effort
Mitch

Simmo,
Consider this, Do think Germany could have constructed a navy on scale that the U.S did? Interesting isn't it, They may have become masters of Europe but I don't think they could have ever got across Atlantic.
Cheers mate.
Waynepoo.

 

[Jack]

I suspect that if the Germans found crossing the English Channel impossible in 1940, crossing the Atlantic may well have proved beyond them. I have a faint memory of Albert Speer hearing the speed with which American shipyards were launching 'Liberty Ships' and knowing then that the war for Germany was over.

 

[waynepoo]

I have found this thread most interesting, proves you guys are thinkers, smart fellows, a pleasure to debate with you all.
Waynepoo.

 

[Rob]

I have found this thread most interesting, proves you guys are thinkers, smart fellows, a pleasure to debate with you all.
Waynepoo.

I do agree with this and the comments of Rod earlier. Whatever our viewpoint its really interesting to see all the perspectives and opinions, this is an excellent thread and most enjoyable.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

And, for a thread many would have been hoping would end deletions and the like and hissy fits!! None. Interesting debate
Mitch

I do agree with this and the comments of Rod earlier. Whatever our viewpoint its really interesting to see all the perspectives and opinions, this is an excellent thread and most enjoyable.

Rob

 

[debrito]

I have found this thread most interesting, proves you guys are thinkers, smart fellows, a pleasure to debate with you all.
Waynepoo.

+ 1 here, one of the best threads, lately at least, thank you Chris to open and to all to contributed ....

My last conclusion on his WWII history is: we have also to thank the stupidity of Adolph Hitler, because if he was less stupidly and if he had listened to his generals the fate of the world will be very different from what we have today.

Saludos

 

[Currahee Chris]

+ 1 here, one of the best threads, lately at least, thank you Chris to open and to all to contributed ....

My last conclusion on his WWII history is: we have also to thank the stupidity of Adolph Hitler, because if he was less stupidly and if he had listened to his generals the fate of the world will be very different from what we have today.

Saludos

Cheers Rod- and thank you all for your kind comments.

@Mitch- I think everyone would be interested to hear your German Decisive WW2 victories. Why hold back now?? {sm4}{sm4} They certainly had some stunning victories but whether or not they rank in the top 10 decisive victories in human history is seriously debatable imo given the end result for them of WW2.

 

[Mitch]

Chris..

Many of the battles expressed here were not humanity changing which, you refered to in your initial post. Some of the encirclements etc the germans did in russia and how they were done, are seen as classic military fare and, are studied even today. That was my earlier point as the thread also focused on a variety of issues as you know. Start a thread about Axis battles and, I will contribute
Mitch

Cheers Rod- and thank you all for your kind comments.

@Mitch- I think everyone would be interested to hear your German Decisive WW2 victories. Why hold back now?? {sm4}{sm4} They certainly had some stunning victories but whether or not they rank in the top 10 decisive victories in human history is seriously debatable imo given the end result for them of WW2.