Thanks Andy! (1 Viewer)

[Saber]

Rob

CHARGE INTO NAPOLEONICS !

FOR KING & COUNTRY !!

Ron, you are a cruel man! Besides I don't need Rob buying up Naps, the're hard enough to find in quanity anyway.

 

[Rob]

Ron, you are a cruel man! Besides I don't need Rob buying up Naps, the're hard enough to find in quanity anyway.

Don't worry mate,much as i'd love to start Naps the War Budget only goes so far

How many of you guys like the look of the new Arnhem figures?.We've talked about the KT quite a bit but i think these Polish Paras have been overlooked.I think there is some nice poses in these releases and will add even more depth to the range.I'm still behind in my Arnhem collection but am hoping to catch up between now and the London show in December.

Rob

 

[nasirkasmani]

Don't worry mate,much as i'd love to start Naps the War Budget only goes so far

How many of you guys like the look of the new Arnhem figures?.We've talked about the KT quite a bit but i think these Polish Paras have been overlooked.I think there is some nice poses in these releases and will add even more depth to the range.I'm still behind in my Arnhem collection but am hoping to catch up between now and the London show in December.

Rob

i agree Rob, and i like the gene hackman figure too.

if K&C continues with these i expect to see 2 of my favoutire actors,

Edward Fox
{acting as Lt. Gen. Brian G. Horrocks, commander of XXX Corps}

and

Maximillian Schell {acting as Obergruppenführer Wilhelm Bittrich - commander of II. SS-Panzerkorps (Hohenstaufen & Frundsberg Divisions) }

 

[Pierre]

Matt, i understand what you mean.

While in this forum we share information, banter, jokes and prods, at the end of the day, what we all collect are our own personal choice, resulting from our personal tastes and style.

We can point out if a figure has wrong uniform, or the vehicle has the wrong size or colour. But no one could point that another member is wrong to collect something.

LAH and Kamikaze might not be the most palatable series, and some will say they are simply glorification of evil.

let me just say, that i can only safely collect sets like these, by the simple fact that both lost the war.

i never ever lost that perspective.

sincerely,

nasir kasmani.

Matt, Nasir

I collect LAH. They are the best figures made by K&C and historically Nazis were at the head of Germany from 1933 to 1945. Can't avoid that fact.

Now, not collecting LAH because of what they represent but collecting Waffen SS (for what exactly???) is a little bit... let's say... tendentious.

What's most offending? SS on parade or SS shooting at somebody? Probably SS shooting... after all, war is such an ordinary thing

 

[Saber]

i agree Rob, and i like the gene hackman figure too.

if K&C continues with these i expect to see 2 of my favoutire actors,

Edward Fox
{acting as Lt. Gen. Brian G. Horrocks, commander of XXX Corps}

and

Maximillian Schell {acting as Obergruppenführer Wilhelm Bittrich - commander of II. SS-Panzerkorps (Hohenstaufen & Frundsberg Divisions) }

The Polish Paras are really nice looking. Just the type of unit that adds some uniqueness to a dio. I wonder if Andy will eventually include some representation from all the major units on each order or battle for OMG. If so, we could see more American Airborne as well as Commonwealth armor. Didn't Sir Laurence Olivier play Horrocks in the movie?

 

[Rob]

I agree with both you guys.These are terrific figures and i think the MG range goes from strength to strength.It would be good to see all nationalities present at the battle represented eventually.

Rob

 

[Saber]

They really are great aren't they Rob? I just got caught up, mostly, with this series while down at KINGS X. The arty piece is fantastic! I can't wait to see the new Polish Paras in person and some XXX Corps armor when Andy releases it.

 

[Rob]

They really are great aren't they Rob? I just got caught up, mostly, with this series while down at KINGS X. The arty piece is fantastic! I can't wait to see the new Polish Paras in person and some XXX Corps armor when Andy releases it.

Yes its a wonderful piece of artillery isn't it.I'd been collecting this series roughly in order of release,but when i saw the gun i just had to buy it straight away!.

Rob

 

[nasirkasmani]

Matt, Nasir

I collect LAH. They are the best figures made by K&C and historically Nazis were at the head of Germany from 1933 to 1945. Can't avoid that fact.

Now, not collecting LAH because of what they represent but collecting Waffen SS (for what exactly???) is a little bit... let's say... tendentious.

What's most offending? SS on parade or SS shooting at somebody? Probably SS shooting... after all, war is such an ordinary thing

well said Pierre.

 

[Rob]

Matt, Nasir

I collect LAH. They are the best figures made by K&C and historically Nazis were at the head of Germany from 1933 to 1945. Can't avoid that fact.

Now, not collecting LAH because of what they represent but collecting Waffen SS (for what exactly???) is a little bit... let's say... tendentious.

What's most offending? SS on parade or SS shooting at somebody? Probably SS shooting... after all, war is such an ordinary thing

I think the difference is probably in perception Pierre.Rightly or wrongly many people may prefer the SS soldiers as they are actually in action and fighting as soldiers following orders.Against perhaps the sight of the architects of the Holocaust and other mass murders strutting there stuff in ceremony.Just a guess.I buy the SS soldiers because a)they are the enemy of my allies and b)i prefer my figures in action much more than ceremonial.But if ceremonial is your thing these new figures must be very tempting.

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

I think the difference is probably in perception Pierre.Rightly or wrongly many people may prefer the SS soldiers as they are actually in action and fighting as soldiers following orders.Against perhaps the sight of the architects of the Holocaust and other mass murders strutting there stuff in ceremony.Just a guess.I buy the SS soldiers because a)they are the enemy of my allies and b)i prefer my figures in action much more than ceremonial.But if ceremonial is your thing these new figures must be very tempting.

Rob

Rob, that could be it.

Btw, I don't know how true it is, but I did read somewhere that German soldiers, including the Waffen SS, were not allowed to be a member of a political party including the NAZI Party

 

[Rob]

Thats very interesting Oz.Its a shame that the SS soldiers were involved in atrocities,as they fought with skill and bravery but forever tarnished their image.

Rob

 

[nasirkasmani]

Thats very interesting Oz.Its a shame that the SS soldiers were involved in atrocities,as they fought with skill and bravery but forever tarnished their image.

Rob

i think in wars any side will have atrocities, even the Western Allies were not clean. Atrocities against unarmed surrendered enemies, and even against German civilians for mere suspicion cooperating with the Wolf packs (german saboteurs). But as 1 Yugoslavian general commented during the Yugo-Kosovo war, "victors have no war crimes".

Saying that the German troops and Japs brought atrocities to a then unheard level.

 

[Rob]

Anyone else going to be mixing the new and old German Tank riders?.That KT looks like there will be a lot of room for Passengers!

Rob

 

[nasirkasmani]

Anyone else going to be mixing the new and old German Tank riders?.That KT looks like there will be a lot of room for Passengers!

Rob

i was thinking the same thing Rob, the BBG03?

but i'm afraid the BBG03 will be a bit bigger in size that the new panzergrenadier tank rider.

 

[Rob]

i was thinking the same thing Rob, the BBG03?

but i'm afraid the BBG03 will be a bit bigger in size that the new panzergrenadier tank rider.

Thats a shame Nasir,they would have looked good together wouldn't they.

Rob

 

[nasirkasmani]

Thats a shame Nasir,they would have looked good together wouldn't they.

Rob

dont take my word for it Rob, i certainly hope not.

but based on the recent K&C releases, the figures are now more lean and trim.

and there is a certain sharpness in the paint tones of the newer figures.

so i assume that they will not fit together, but i'll gladly accept to be proven wrong.

 

[Buzz]

Rob, that could be it.

Btw, I don't know how true it is, but I did read somewhere that German soldiers, including the Waffen SS, were not allowed to be a member of a political party including the NAZI Party

Hi There... Just a word in the spirit of friendly clarification:

Nobody in Germany was discouraged (much less ordered) from joining the Nazi party. In fact, all members of the Allgemeine-SS, SD, and Waffen-SS, and Totenkopfverbaende were members of the Nazi party by default. Perhaps the primary reason why the Allies singled out the SS as a criminal organization is that every member could be directly linked to the party and it's decisions. Certainly there were members of the Waffen-SS who could claim that they had only fought as "soldaten wie andere auch" (such as Gunther Grass), but in the early years of the organization (1925-40), membership was a political decision, one where a new recruit took a personal oath the Hitler as a "Political soldier".

Anyone who collects WSS or LAH should expect to receive some Flak (no pun intended) from knowledgeable people who see his collection. In the case of the LAH, there is no way to place distance between the genocidal crimes of the regime and a set of 20 or so marching party members lovingly displayed on a mantlepiece or bookshelf. I have quite a collection pf W-SS myself and I'm aware of how folks react when they see the Greek Cross on the Panther tank, even if they don't know what or who the SS were.

As for the Waffen-SS, anybody who served as a guard in the death camps was Waffen-SS. Even if we argue that the WSS models KC sells represent only the front-line troops (not an unreasonable claim), the Waffen-SS consistently engaged in mass atrocity as soon as the war in Russia kicked-off. In recent years, scholars such as Omar Bartov have decisively concluded that the Wehrmacht was equally guilty of war crimes in Russia--the war there was (as we all know) as viciously genocidal as the Japanese occupation of China. When Hitler issued the infamous "Commissar order" in 1941, his justification for ignoring the rules of the Geneva Convention and the Hague Conventions was that the war against bolshevism was like none other in history. It was a race war wherein party commissars and Jews mixed in with the civilian population (which itself was sub-human in his eyes). Is it any wonder that 16 million Soviet civilians died? The entire German war machine was on a mission to enslave all of eastern Europe.

On the western front, the Waffen-SS fought with more restraint than they did in the east, but they remain infamous for numerous atrocities totally unrelated to "battlefield frenzy". Oradour, the execution of unarmed Canadians by 12th SS, and the Malmedy Massacre are the best known examples of W-SS brutality. For the most part, these actions reflected the racist, social-Darwinist will of Hitler, the party, and Himmler's SS.

So... what does that mean for a collection of LAH or WSS?

I'm not sure. People "in the know" will think us strange and perhaps even unbalanced. Our friends and familiy will take it in stride because they know we're more than our toys. I own the RA series and much of the WS series. I hope that most people who see them only see my love of history reflected in toy soldiers and don't think that I romanticize either regime. If Andy had released Wehrmacht '44 soldiers earlier, I'm sure I would have had them instead (so long as I have a foe for my Russkis). If I were queried directly and sharply about my choices, I would have to say: "Hey, I've got German, French, American and Russian toy soldiers. I've also got X-Files action figures (sweet!) and Barzso's Aztecs and Conquistadors. I collect the WSS figures because Andy's product was simply too beautiful to pass up (so much color to their uniforms). No, I'm not a Nazi. No, I'm not a Stalinist. They're toys for crying out loud."

That said, I boxed it all away when my wife and I had the house on sale.

Imagine how you might respond if you encountered somebody's lovingly kept collection of photographs and writings of 9/11 conspirators and the attacks on the WTC... Out of context. You wouldn't know what to think.

A final thought regarding the issue of SS war crimes as somehow more or less eggregious than those committed by the Allies or by any army in other modern conflicts is this: All armies kill civilians. All armies create wanton destruction. But the German army in WWII (SS and Wehrmacht) faithfully served a regime dedicated to world conquest and genocide. The genocide of Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs was policy. The massacre and forced starvation (to the point of cannibalism) of over 80% of Russian POWs was policy. The plunder of Russian villages and enslavement of the population was policy. Did American troops beat up and abuse Waffen-SS soldiers that they took prisoner in the Bulge? Yes. Did the order come down from FDR? No.

I won't go into Allied war crimes at this point since I've already gone on too long. I hope that this post is recieved in the spirit intended. My apologies if anything I wrote is misconstrued as criticism.

 

[Rob]

Hi There... Just a word in the spirit of friendly clarification:

Nobody in Germany was discouraged (much less ordered) from joining the Nazi party. In fact, all members of the Allgemeine-SS, SD, and Waffen-SS, and Totenkopfverbaende were members of the Nazi party by default. Perhaps the primary reason why the Allies singled out the SS as a criminal organization is that every member could be directly linked to the party and it's decisions. Certainly there were members of the Waffen-SS who could claim that they had only fought as "soldaten wie andere auch" (such as Gunther Grass), but in the early years of the organization (1925-40), membership was a political decision, one where a new recruit took a personal oath the Hitler as a "Political soldier".

Anyone who collects WSS or LAH should expect to receive some Flak (no pun intended) from knowledgeable people who see his collection. In the case of the LAH, there is no way to place distance between the genocidal crimes of the regime and a set of 20 or so marching party members lovingly displayed on a mantlepiece or bookshelf. I have quite a collection pf W-SS myself and I'm aware of how folks react when they see the Greek Cross on the Panther tank, even if they don't know what or who the SS were.

As for the Waffen-SS, anybody who served as a guard in the death camps was Waffen-SS. Even if we argue that the WSS models KC sells represent only the front-line troops (not an unreasonable claim), the Waffen-SS consistently engaged in mass atrocity as soon as the war in Russia kicked-off. In recent years, scholars such as Omar Bartov have decisively concluded that the Wehrmacht was equally guilty of war crimes in Russia--the war there was (as we all know) as viciously genocidal as the Japanese occupation of China. When Hitler issued the infamous "Commissar order" in 1941, his justification for ignoring the rules of the Geneva Convention and the Hague Conventions was that the war against bolshevism was like none other in history. It was a race war wherein party commissars and Jews mixed in with the civilian population (which itself was sub-human in his eyes). Is it any wonder that 16 million Soviet civilians died? The entire German war machine was on a mission to enslave all of eastern Europe.

On the western front, the Waffen-SS fought with more restraint than they did in the east, but they remain infamous for numerous atrocities totally unrelated to "battlefield frenzy". Oradour, the execution of unarmed Canadians by 12th SS, and the Malmedy Massacre are the best known examples of W-SS brutality. For the most part, these actions reflected the racist, social-Darwinist will of Hitler, the party, and Himmler's SS.

So... what does that mean for a collection of LAH or WSS?

I'm not sure. People "in the know" will think us strange and perhaps even unbalanced. Our friends and familiy will take it in stride because they know we're more than our toys. I own the RA series and much of the WS series. I hope that most people who see them only see my love of history reflected in toy soldiers and don't think that I romanticize either regime. If Andy had released Wehrmacht '44 soldiers earlier, I'm sure I would have had them instead (so long as I have a foe for my Russkis). If I were queried directly and sharply about my choices, I would have to say: "Hey, I've got German, French, American and Russian toy soldiers. I've also got X-Files action figures (sweet!) and Barzso's Aztecs and Conquistadors. I collect the WSS figures because Andy's product was simply too beautiful to pass up (so much color to their uniforms). No, I'm not a Nazi. No, I'm not a Stalinist. They're toys for crying out loud."

That said, I boxed it all away when my wife and I had the house on sale.

Imagine how you might respond if you encountered somebody's lovingly kept collection of photographs and writings of 9/11 conspirators and the attacks on the WTC... Out of context. You wouldn't know what to think.

A final thought regarding the issue of SS war crimes as somehow more or less eggregious than those committed by the Allies or by any army in other modern conflicts is this: All armies kill civilians. All armies create wanton destruction. But the German army in WWII (SS and Wehrmacht) faithfully served a regime dedicated to world conquest and genocide. The genocide of Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs was policy. The massacre and forced starvation (to the point of cannibalism) of over 80% of Russian POWs was policy. The plunder of Russian villages and enslavement of the population was policy. Did American troops beat up and abuse Waffen-SS soldiers that they took prisoner in the Bulge? Yes. Did the order come down from FDR? No.

I won't go into Allied war crimes at this point since I've already gone on too long. I hope that this post is recieved in the spirit intended. My apologies if anything I wrote is misconstrued as criticism.

A well written and very balanced viewpoint in my opinion,thanks for posting.

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

The only thing I will say is that there are too many German figures being made and not enough Allies and I've decided to cut back my collecting of them. Unfortunately, this is not just restricted to King & Country but others manufacturers as well. Although it is natural to have opponents, not when it seems like the opponents are being produced in quantities that outweigh the good guys in what seems like an overwhelming majority.

This doesn't mean that others should follow only my lead; this is just my opinion and philosophy.