The Little Bighorn (3 Viewers)

[VanguardFC007]

"There is no such thing as a hyphenated American"- President Theodore Roosevelt

Well put from a Great American!

 

[Njja]

Well put from a Great American!

I agree.......lets just hope it doesn't bring out the

"All the Reasons I Hate Teddy Roosevelt Crowd"

 

[VanguardFC007]

Im not sure I could handle that group.

 

[Njja]

Im not sure I could handle that group.

So far so good......maybe they have all left!

 

[marco55]

I want to thank Mike and UKReb for their insight thoughts on the battle.I have read a lot about the battle but my knowledge is nowhere near you guys.Thanks again.
Mark

 

[eborris]

I think the second gunman on the grassy knoll actually shot Custer.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Yes I believe you are correct, it seems to be an American point. I must say growing up since 1949 it was never a big deal until lately. In the past everyone seemed to be proud to be an "American" we had a rich history, and rose to world prominence in a relatively short period of time. Today many people seem to be unhappy, filled with guilt, or whatever. We cannot even have a simple discussion on the Little Bighorn without it turning into America's aggression against an innocient poor little flock of sheep. I wonder if a simple discussion about the English Countryside would bring up tales of Roman Conquest and abuse of the "Native English"

So I take a quick look at the people so upset with America's history of 130
years ago........and what do I find.......are they from another country
perhaps? Maybe they do not understand all the good things America has
tried to accomplish. Maybe they have never visited here, and seen the
opportunities, and lifestyles we enjoy.

No many of the folks so upset with our history and activities live right here
in the good old USA.

So you must forgive me if I intend to give America the benefit of the doubt, we may not always be right, be we try our best.

America is indeed a great country and responsible for many things to be proud about. That does not mean it is or that any country ever could be perfect and the point of recognizing the imperfections is to understand how you got to a certain place and where necessary, improve. If that is troubling to some, that is rather unfortunate since it suggests we are doomed to forever repeat our mistakes.

A discussion about LBH cannot realistically be had without some appreciation of what was good and bad about American policy and the efforts there to implement it unless you want to take a very narrow perspective focusing only on details like tactics or weaponry. As soon as you expand it to the relative merits of one side, the door swings open. There is nothing PC about that, merely a recognition of historical reality. That also does not mean you can't have whatever narrow discussion you like as well but if you participate in the expanded focus, it seems curious to complain that you cannot have a discussion without such expansion.

I freely admit to being less than pleased with some things this nation did 130 years ago and my family has been here since before the AWI. Every generation served in some war or another, including me, so I humbly think I have a right to criticize my country as well as appreciate its virtues. That is the right of any citizen living in a free society and a really don't understand why exercising it should be offensive. I guess I am that kind of American.

 

[Louis Badolato]

.................................................................

Louis you make excellent points, and I am aware of activities that went on in

Vietnam.

It does not condone the State sponsored abuse of prisoners, on television

and in the media which was practiced by N. Vietnam.

In the United States when such activies are made public, people are

punished for these crimes which are unlawful.

I do not recall seeing anyone from the Hanoi Hilton put on trial.

We are also still waiting for the terrorists that killed our newsman on live

tv to be brought to trial do you think that will ever happen?

This is what seperates us from some other nations. We are a nation of laws.

On occasion these laws are broken by individuals, when this information is made

public actions are taken.

John,

I completely agree with everything you just said. That's why I consider us the good guys.

 

[Louis Badolato]

I agree.......lets just hope it doesn't bring out the

"All the Reasons I Hate Teddy Roosevelt Crowd"

Who could hate Teddy Roosevelt? He is far and away my favorite president. My mother in law lives about a 2 minute drive from Sagamore Hill, and I visit at least once a summer.

 

[VanguardFC007]

Who could hate Teddy Roosevelt? He is far and away my favorite president. My mother in law lives about a 2 minute drive from Sagamore Hill, and I visit at least once a summer.

John,

Could this be a trap to lure us in? I jest.

Im jealous that youve been there. Ive been to some of the Great Virginian homes and would love to see some others formerly belonging to Great Americans.

 

[Njja]

I think the second gunman on the grassy knoll actually shot Custer.

Now that is an interesting theory!

 

[Njja]

I have a right to criticize my country as well as appreciate its virtues. That is the right of any citizen living in a free society and a really don't understand why exercising it should be offensive. I guess I am that kind of American.

...................................................................

I would certainly agree that you have a right to criticize your country if you
wish to, and I am certain that somewhere, somehow the U.S. makes another mistake daily.

I just don't believe its necessary to insult a brave soldier that fought for his country, or blame the U.S. for every thing under the sun including the massacre of its soldiers.

Did Custer error, well common sense would say yes. Was he vain, and did he seek out glory for personal attention? One look at his Civil War General uniform will answer that question. Isn't this a quality many famous Generals also possess......I'm thinking Gen Patton, Montgomery, Caesar. and so on.

Did we take advantage of the Indians? I would most certainly have to say yes.....I would also point out every victor in any battle anywhere in the world at some point would be guilty of the same actions.

If would be nice if we could just discuss the battle and perhaps its aftermath without deciding exactly who was right and who was wrong.

As they say forgettabowit.......its history.

 

[Njja]

John,

I completely agree with everything you just said. That's why I consider us the good guys.

Louis, I agree, we try. Its not easy and we make mistakes daily, but I believe

America has a soul and we try and do better. We may not always succeed

exactly as we would like to, but we do keep trying.

 

[Njja]

Who could hate Teddy Roosevelt? He is far and away my favorite president. My mother in law lives about a 2 minute drive from Sagamore Hill, and I visit at least once a summer.

..........................

I think Teddy Roosevelt had class!

 

[Njja]

John,

Could this be a trap to lure us in? I jest.

Im jealous that youve been there. Ive been to some of the Great Virginian homes and would love to see some others formerly belonging to Great Americans.

...................................................................................

I don't know.......perhaps we have finally found a topic, or a man we can

all agree on.......and admire!

 

[UKReb]

OK guys in an attempt to get out of this maelstrom which to be honest is not going anywhere fast let me try a different tack.

Custer's Last Stand (and before the purists slug me I know that it now appears there was no such thing) but the myth of the Last Stand is now larger than Custer's personal legend (good and bad) the image of a buckskin clad Custer with his 7th Cavalry troopers, pennants flying, bugles blowing surrounded by thousands of painted Indians has remained unimpaired in the public eye despite the fact that Custer's personal reputation has undergone a complete transformation in the last 40 years-from 19th century hero to despised villain.

One of my old history professors used to say "historical heroes have cycles of popularity" I was always fond of that quote because what he meant was as any civilised society moved forward it would naturally look back at where it came from-examine it's navel and if something or someone regardless of a previous heroic reputation did not fit into the culture of the day or reflected badly on the national character it or him took the blame.
Today Custer has become the vilified beast that America has hung it's shame on for the treatment of the Native American-UNDENIABLE FACT!

However Custer is viewed today as a person the last stand seems to live apart completely uncompromised even by Custer's severest critics who will always refer to his and his men's bravery even though they quickly add that he was also an Eichmann. But the static image of him on that ridge within a frame of a story remains unblemished-the frame can change to suit the culture of the day but the myth is burnished within the American soul and I may add across the world like no other miltary action that I can recall. I have travelled quite extensively throughout my career and in non-English speaking countries across Europe to Japan Custer's Last Stand has sometimes been used in all kinds of advertising. Ironically his image at the LBH is portrayed by people who couldn't even point to Montana on a map.

Films, pop songs, cartoons, TV and at least 3 new books on the subject published every year have kept that image alive-take a look at the amount of hits this and the Custer film has received on our forum-he and his final fight still arouse massive interest.

Some of you will say well Bob that's the power of Hollywood-but there has not been a Custer film for almost 20 years and that was on TV while Hollywoods last outing was 40 years ago. So I cannot really buy that. Others might say because people are mesmerised by "Last Stands" which is true and there have been many military last stands throughout history but those are in the main only known by us military history nerds and not by the general public at large.

This might be a bit heavy for this thread but I think most of you-phobes and philes alike will get my jist and I do have a genuine interest in what my American friends believe are the reasons Custer's Last Stand has endured all the way into the 21st century.

Reb

 

[maddadicus]

OK guys in an attempt to get out of this maelstrom which to be honest is not going anywhere fast let me try a different tack.

Custer's Last Stand (and before the purists slug me I know that it now appears there was no such thing) but the myth of the Last Stand is now larger than Custer's personal legend (good and bad) the image of a buckskin clad Custer with his 7th Cavalry troopers, pennants flying, bugles blowing surrounded by thousands of painted Indians has remained unimpaired in the public eye despite the fact that Custer's personal reputation has undergone a complete transformation in the last 40 years-from 19th century hero to despised villain.

One of my old history professors used to say "historical heroes have cycles of popularity" I was always fond of that quote because what he meant was as any civilised society moved forward it would naturally look back at where it came from-examine it's navel and if something or someone regardless of a previous heroic reputation did not fit into the culture of the day or reflected badly on the national character it or him took the blame.
Today Custer has become the vilified beast that America has hung it's shame on for the treatment of the Native American-UNDENIABLE FACT!

However Custer is viewed today as a person the last stand seems to live apart completely uncompromised even by Custer's severest critics who will always refer to his and his men's bravery even though they quickly add that he was also an Eichmann. But the static image of him on that ridge within a frame of a story remains unblemished-the frame can change to suit the culture of the day but the myth is burnished within the American soul and I may add across the world like no other miltary action that I can recall. I have travelled quite extensively throughout my career and in non-English speaking countries across Europe to Japan Custer's Last Stand has sometimes been used in all kinds of advertising. Ironically his image at the LBH is portrayed by people who couldn't even point to Montana on a map.

Films, pop songs, cartoons, TV and at least 3 new books on the subject published every year have kept that image alive-take a look at the amount of hits this and the Custer film has received on our forum-he and his final fight still arouse massive interest.

Some of you will say well Bob that's the power of Hollywood-but there has not been a Custer film for almost 20 years and that was on TV while Hollywoods last outing was 40 years ago. So I cannot really buy that. Others might say because people are mesmerised by "Last Stands" which is true and there have been many military last stands throughout history but those are in the main only known by us military history nerds and not by the general public at large.

This might be a bit heavy for this thread but I think most of you-phobes and philes alike will get my jist and I do have a genuine interest in what my American friends believe are the reasons Custer's Last Stand has endured all the way into the 21st century.

Reb

All I ever care about historically are the battles themselves. Politics of the long past ,especially when viewed with a present eye bores me to death. It is bad enough that I have to listen to the spin of politicians daily, affecting ( usual negatively ) my current way of life, but to have to listen to the same " stuff ",concerning conflicts long done is too much. The Custer battle becomes intriging as a military detective story ,because no one survived from his immediate command. He was not supposed to lose. But that he did, is history. There, for the most part, has never been a righteous political climate that has preceded most of our AND OTHER COUNTRIES past conflicts, especially from our forever apologetic current generation. So when a new set of bones is found on the battlefield, I will be most interested in the forensics to tell me who this guy was and how he died in the service, defending our rights some 130 years later to call him a racist bas*********...Gotta love this country. Michael

 

[eborris]

I don't think his legacy has endured with all American's, infact I have two daughter's ages 30 & 25 , both college graduates who have little or no knowledge of who Custer was. They may have heard of Custer's Last Stand in passing or from me, but that's the extent of their exposure.

I became interested through two sources, one I spent a lot of time in bars when I was young and it seemed many bars had a print of Custers Last Stand on the wall some beer company I believe gave them away, probably Budweiser and being young and not able to drink, I would start and the print and wonder what the heck it was all about. About the same time a company called Gibbs came out with a Custer's Last Stand set and they would show it on commericals of some long forgotten show I watched as a kid. My cousin got one, but I never did, bummer. May explain why I have 8 of them now, well maybe not, but that's another story. Anyway, those two things sparked my interest and led me to watching movies about the subject and reading whatever I could get my grubby little hands on.

 

[pugio]

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf" - George Orwell

 

[jazzeum]

Bob,

I think there are a couple of reasons. Whatever you think of the man, he was up against unbeatable odds. That couple with being the underdog (in this case) makes him a heroic figure.

Then there is history. By 1876, we had fulfilled our vision of manifest destiny and the frontier was being opened up to settlement; the interior was starting to getting settled. The frontier as we know it was starting to come to an end and the veneer of civilization was coming to what was the old Nebraska Kansas territory (one of the events that ultimately led to the Civil War) and the West. Custer and his enemies were part of the last vestiges of the frontier and harked back to a time when the West was wild.

Sort of in the same vein is one of the greatest movies ever made, Lonely are the Brave with Kirk Douglas made in 1962. It's a story of an old cowboy who can't accept civilization, the structures that society has imposed on him, somewhat comparable in a loose way to the taming of the West. As an aside, anyone who hasn't seen it should go see it. Run, don't walk to see it. It's that good. An unrecognized classic.