The Little Bighorn (3 Viewers)

[marco55]

No, I'm sad to say he did not. The Indians did state that some officer(?) or at least some guy in buckskins was shot off of his horse, but they were not sure of who it was. I'm afraid this battle much like the Alamo will forever be clouded in mystery. If it wasn't though, this would have been a short thread.

I would be interested in anything he had to say also.
Mark

 

[maddadicus]

Did he ever say anything about Custer being wounded early while crossing the Ford? That would clear up a lot.

Louis, I am not so sure that Custer was at the ford. Some recent books that I have read, believe that Custer sent a troop or 2 ,under Capt. Yates ( co. E and F )to the ford to shoot into the camp and hope to take some pressure off of Reno. The buckskin officer might have been Lt. Sturgis of co. E, whose body was never found.. There was light firing at best and most of these men then met Custer later to die on the ridges. Michael

 

[trooper]

For the benefit of those interested in the Sgt. Finkle story there is a quite extensive article in the June 2007 issue of "Wild West" magazine. Several corrobative comments from the Indian accounts give credence to his story as does the finding of the body of his alledged horse by Godfrey. He made no exagerated claims regarding his escape and his very understatement makes it possible that his tale was true, but read the article and draw your own conclusions.

 

[UKReb]

To make his story even more plausible, I've read some statments by Indians that were present or at least claimed to be present, that some number of the troopers horses bolted straight towards them and at least one they think made it through without being killed. Who can say for certain, it almost sounds reasonable. However, even if he did survive he never saw enough of the battle to to cler up any mysteries.

Douglas W Ellison in 1985 authored "Sole Survivor an Examination of the Frank Finkle Narrative" which was the first account taken from the various newspaper interviews that Finkle and his family had given. The Real West article that trooper has mentioned was taken primarily from Ellison's research and as with most accounts of Custer's final fight there are as many evidential holes in the Finkle story as there are evidential accuracies.

So what do we know about the final 30 minutes of C Troop based on archeological evidence such as bones, bodies (markers), artifacts, shell casings and Indian accounts?

After the attempt to cross or feign an attempt across the river there was one last rendezvous position of all of Custer's battalion before C Co launch an attack to clear Calhoun Coulee of Indians while
E; F; I and L move north to either gain higher ground or find an escape route. But C Co come under intense fire from Lame White Man and his warriors and fall back in disorder now pursued by hundreds of mounted Sioux and Cheyenne. Company L under Lt Calhoun throw out a skirmish line to cover C Co's retreat to Calhoun Hill but are engulfed by Gall's warriors attack from the southern approaches and the position swiftly collapses amid fierce hand to hand fighting with the few survivors fleeing to Keogh's position on Custer Ridge.

Finkle never confirmed at what moment he left the action/battle but the collapse on Calhoun Hill- according to Indian accounts- would be the most accurate location for where Finkle would have began his "escape". He stated that a bullet struck the butt of his Springfield carbine throwing the barrel against his forehead the blood of this facial wound temporarily blinding him. He quickly receives two more bullet wounds one to his abdomen/side the other to his right heel while his horse takes a bullet to it's flank causing it to bolt straight through the Indian lines surprising the warriors.

Rain in the Face the Hunkpapa war chief stated in 1894 "One long knife escaped laying across his pony (slumped and wounded? maybe) as it ran passed us".

We also know now that others broke through the cordon Corporal John Foley raced away pursued by a band of warriors who finally ran him down someway from the battlefield. Another may have been Lt Harington second in command of C Company whose body was never found and Trooper Nathan Short made it as far as the Rosebud River before both he and his horse collapsed dead their skeletons being found years after the fight. All feasible as most of the 7th's mounts coming from Kentucky could easily have outrun the shorter legged Indian pony-depending of course on their condition after being in the field for some considerable time.

Ellison's account comes down firmly on believing Finkle's story highlighting such evidence as Finkle's accurate knowledge of the terrain and topographic descriptions of the valley area; the identical signatures of Augustus Finckel's enlistment papers into the 7th cavalry in 1872 and Frank Finkle's in 1921; Sergeant Finckle's best friend in the 7th was Sergeant Charles Windolph of Benteen's H Company and a survivor of the fight on Reno Hill returned to the Custer battlefield to specifically look for his friend's body but couldn't find it; the discovery of a C Trooper's horse by Lt Godfrey some way from the battlefield etc.etc.

And then of course you have the doubters who refute Finkle's story listing their evidence such as Finkle's unshakeable account that he held the rank of trooper sometimes corporal-never a sergeant; he rode a roan where all C Company's mounts were sorrels in accordance with Custer's insistence of all his company's horses to be in perfect uniformity; evidence from Sergeant Kanipe who brought Custer's first order to Benteen stating that he recognized Sergeant Finckel's body lying next to Sergeant Finley etc.etc.

Like I said before-Who Knows? Good story though and Ed is right if he indeed was a survivor and broke out at Calhoun Hill he would have not seen anything of Keogh's final fight let alone Custer's.

Reb

 

[steve weston]

Even if I can't contribute to this thread, I just want to say that it is a most interesting read.
Thanks to all participants in the discussion.
Konrad

Have I come to the wrong forum? I thought that this was a TOY SOLDIER forum not a discussion place for anyone's views on a point in history, and certainly nothing to do with TSSD's forthcoming playset!

Let's stick to TOY SOLDIERS and leave everything else out.

Steve Weston.

 

[1879fanatic]

Have I come to the wrong forum? I thought that this was a TOY SOLDIER forum not a discussion place for anyone's views on a point in history, and certainly nothing to do with TSSD's forthcoming playset!

Let's stick to TOY SOLDIERS and leave everything else out.

Steve Weston.

Gotta comment on the wine and cigars while you're playin' with the toys!
Mike

 

[marco55]

Have I come to the wrong forum? I thought that this was a TOY SOLDIER forum not a discussion place for anyone's views on a point in history, and certainly nothing to do with TSSD's forthcoming playset!

Let's stick to TOY SOLDIERS and leave everything else out.

Steve Weston.

There is a section for historical discussion and this is it.
Mark

 

[trooper]

This is addressed specificaly to UK Reb, who is, I am sure we all agree, the no 1 authority on this subject on the forum. How many men were originally just posted as missing? Over the years various bodies have been discovered at varying distances from the battlefield, in fact I believe that two or three were found during the big archeological dig a few years ago which had been lost when the bodies were all relocated to the cemetary. Has the full command now been accounted for or are there still some missing?

 

[UKReb]

This is addressed specificaly to UK Reb, who is, I am sure we all agree, the no 1 authority on this subject on the forum. How many men were originally just posted as missing? Over the years various bodies have been discovered at varying distances from the battlefield, in fact I believe that two or three were found during the big archeological dig a few years ago which had been lost when the bodies were all relocated to the cemetary. Has the full command now been accounted for or are there still some missing?

The easiest way to answer this trooper is first to take the best estimate of how many men were with Custer when he split from Reno. The 7th's muster lists for Companys C;E;F;I & L show a total of 10 officers & 210 enlisted men-now add Custer and his HQ staff which was Custer, his adjutant Lt William Cooke, Assistant Surgeon Dr Lord, Mitch Boyer Custer's Chief Scout and 2 civilians those being Autie Reed (Custer's nephew) and reporter Mark Kellogg-brings the total to 236. Subtract 2 being Sgt Kanipe and Trooper Martin both sent back bearing messages to Benteen and add 1 Boston Custer who left the pack train and galloped ahead to join his brothers. Best total- 235.

The gruesome task of burying the dead began soon after the rescue of Reno's command and continued until at least the evening of the 28th when the regiment with the wounded carried on litters were taken back to the steamer The Far West. Reading Gordon's report and other letters/diaries of the burial party participants reveal that it was not an easy task, bodies and horse carcasses were fast decomposing, none of the troopers had any proper digging implements-a few tools were improvised from what they found in the rubble of the deserted Indian camp. The soil was dry and porous as one officer described as "resembling sugar" so burial was no more than a token gesture. They basically left the bodies lying where they fell and covered them as best as they could with sagebrush and dirt or in some cases rolled them into shallow trenches. Officers were identified by wooden markers and their names on paper placed inside empty cartridge shells hammered into the marker. Godfrey's total of bodies buried is shown as a count of 204. Three of Custer's officers Lt's Harington, Porter and Sturgis bodies were not found and to this day have never been found therefore doing the maths: as the regiment left the field on the 28th a total of 31 bodies were unaccounted for.

Exactly one year later to the day of the battle on June 25th 1877 Captain Henry Nowlan and the newly recruited Company I of the 7th cavalry journeyed to the battlefield for the purpose of collecting the remains of the officers who had fallen-Nowlan came with a chart that designated where each officer was buried but most of the wooden markers with the shellcases were still in place. Only one officer was reburied on the field with full honors as the father of 2nd Lt John J Crittenden, an infantry colonel, had said "Let my boy lie where he fell" All the other officers bodies including the Custer brothers and the two officers killed at the Reno fight Lts Hodgson & McIntosh were gathered up and transferred into pine boxes for transport to cemeteries designated by the next of kin. Apparently at the same time the remains of the enlisted men were reburied in mass graves, however the 28 men from E Troop who had been buried in the Deep Ravine by their 7th colleagues could not be located by Nowlan's Company and still remain missing today.

The 7th troopers when interring and reinterring despite their best efforts missed some of their dead comrades and over the following 50 years the remains of several more were discovered on or near the battlefield. Following the prairie fire of 1983 and the archaeological excavations that then took place a complete skeleton was found. The remains were examined by a forensic expert who estimated that this trooper had been between nineteen and twenty two years old-they christened him "Trooper Mike" he had been shot twice in the chest and had bullet fragments in his wrist. Postdeath mutilation was indicated by his shattered skull and the usual gashed right thighbone. His remains were reburied in the Little Big Horn Cemetery in June 1985. No doubt over the coming years others will be found and given a proper burial and join their comrades.

Reb

 

[eborris]

This is addressed specificaly to UK Reb, who is, I am sure we all agree, the no 1 authority on this subject on the forum. How many men were originally just posted as missing? Over the years various bodies have been discovered at varying distances from the battlefield, in fact I believe that two or three were found during the big archeological dig a few years ago which had been lost when the bodies were all relocated to the cemetary. Has the full command now been accounted for or are there still some missing?

Infact, they think they found Mitch Boyer at least his skull or what was left of it, they also found an officers finger with his wedding ring still attached, can't remember his name though.

 

[UKReb]

Trooper my reply on post 469 apart from my adding up being wrong- which I tried to correct but ran out of edit time-is only the body count on the Custer field. On the Reno field the casualties were 3 officers (one being Dr DeWolf) 44 enlisted men and 6 scouts making a total of 53. Apparently all of these bodies were located and interred by Reno's men on the bluffs where they fought.

The missing 20 odd from the Custer field you will find has been refuted throughout by some early historians stating many reasons such as that there were a couple of desertions before the battle; there were transferees from Custer's to Reno's command before the two commands split, that the bodies on the Custer field were so mutilated with many of the limbs removed the 7th burial detail didn't realise which part belonged to who hence a miscount of 204 as recorded.

There was never an official figure released by the army on how many of the 7th were missing but various numbers were given over periods of time from 20 to 40 and then suddenly none. But we now know with the amount of skeletons found that the zero count appears to be nonsense.

Reb

 

[eborris]

This site gives a complete list of the 7th cavalry roster:

http://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/7th Cav Muster Rolls.htm

Interesting, I never printed the list, but I know I came across at least one guy that they never found his body. Suprisingly, Sturgis isn't the one.

 

[damian]

Steve was a mere 16 years old when he first met Townes, who he viewed as a mentor. That teacher-student relationship gave Townes the ability to play a joke or two. At one point, Townes discovered Steve had never read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee. It was, Townes insisted, essential literature, so he loaned Steve a copy of that book as well as Leo Tolstoy’s War And Peace. Steve read them both, and afterward, Townes asked a slew of questions about Tolstoy’s massive work.

"It turned out Townes never read War And Peace," Steve said. "He just thought I should."

These are Steve Earle's recollections of Townes Van Zandt.

 

[eborris]

Steve was a mere 16 years old when he first met Townes, who he viewed as a mentor. That teacher-student relationship gave Townes the ability to play a joke or two. At one point, Townes discovered Steve had never read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee. It was, Townes insisted, essential literature, so he loaned Steve a copy of that book as well as Leo Tolstoy’s War And Peace. Steve read them both, and afterward, Townes asked a slew of questions about Tolstoy’s massive work.

"It turned out Townes never read War And Peace," Steve said. "He just thought I should."

These are Steve Earle's recollections of Townes Van Zandt.

All that I can say to that is Copperhead Road!!!!!!!

 

[damian]

All that I can say to that is Copperhead Road!!!!!!!

To live is too fly.
Steve named his son Justin "Townes" Earle.
Justin is now also releasing great music

 

[damian]

I found this book at a Church fete.
Bluecoats and Redskins. The United States Army and the Indian 1866-1891
The author is Robert M Utley.
Published in 1972.
He says in the introduction
Eastern Humanitarians assailed them as butchers, rampaging around the west gleefully slaughtering peaceable Indians and taking special delight in shooting down women and children. Antislavery leaders such as Wendell Phillips and William Lloyd Garrison turned energeis released by the Emancipation Proclamation to a crusade on behalf of the Red men and the army felt the sting of rhetoric. Phiilips stated "I know the names of only three savages on the Plains Col Baker, General Custer and the head of all General Sheridan"


The author goes on to compare this attitude with the view as portrayed by John Ford and popular media. He states that the truth is in between and promises to try and find it in the pages of his book.
SO I am set on my voyage of discovery.
I am lead to believe Mr Utley is a good guide.

 

[maddadicus]

I found this book at a Church fete.
Bluecoats and Redskins. The United States Army and the Indian 1866-1891
The author is Robert M Utley.
Published in 1972.
He says in the introduction
Eastern Humanitarians assailed them as butchers, rampaging around the west gleefully slaughtering peaceable Indians and taking special delight in shooting down women and children. Antislavery leaders such as Wendell Phillips and William Lloyd Garrison turned energeis released by the Emancipation Proclamation to a crusade on behalf of the Red men and the army felt the sting of rhetoric. Phiilips stated "I know the names of only three savages on the Plains Col Baker, General Custer and the head of all General Sheridan"


The author goes on to compare this attitude with the view as portrayed by John Ford and popular media. He states that the truth is in between and promises to try and find it in the pages of his book.
SO I am set on my voyage of discovery.
I am lead to believe Mr Utley is a good guide.

Bob Utley is generally considered to be a top notch and impartial Custer historian..Michael

 

[eborris]

Again I don't know how credible the source is, but one of the 7th Cavalry survivors (Reno's troop) claims to have seen Custer rescue a Sioux Squaw from some dire consequences at the hands of one of his Indian scouts. If true it doesn't sound like he was the blood thirsty barbarian that some have depicted.

 

[Combat]

Again I don't know how credible the source is, but one of the 7th Cavalry survivors (Reno's troop) claims to have seen Custer rescue a Sioux Squaw from some dire consequences at the hands of one of his Indian scouts. If true it doesn't sound like he was the blood thirsty barbarian that some have depicted.

I doubt the Indians will be building any statues for him. Remember Cool Hand Luke: I wish you'd stop being so good to me, Cap'm.

 

[trooper]

Again I don't know how credible the source is, but one of the 7th Cavalry survivors (Reno's troop) claims to have seen Custer rescue a Sioux Squaw from some dire consequences at the hands of one of his Indian scouts. If true it doesn't sound like he was the blood thirsty barbarian that some have depicted.

That incident, if true, could not have happened at the Little Big Horn, the last sight Reno's troop had of Custer was of him waving his hat on the bluffs before action had been joined. It sounds more like a garbled version of the Washita where Custer was reputed to have had a liason with a Cheyenne woman, Moonaseetha, who was supposed to have had his child.