The nazi religion (2 Viewers)

[Poppo]

In historic books nazism is considered under many points of view: politic, military,society, criminals etc. But Nazism was for germans a "religion"( or the nazi tried to make it for all the germans ) and Hitler was the "god". I would say that it was a mixed of pagan religion and politics, that' s why Hitler excites even today people' s imagination almost to science fiction!

Actually, nazism was born like a religion,inspired by the " New Thule" , a secret swedish society which members ( like Goering, Rosenberg) belived in the " north superman" and other myths from german and scandinavian mythology (ex. the nazi considered the norvegians like the purest race). Hitler absorbed all this and decided to create a religion in which he was the god, that' s why Nazism is more a big sect than a politic movement, the religious part is the real essence of it. Also in " Indiana Jones" there is a part of reality: Himmler promoted searchings about "sacred graal",and escavations to find germanic relics and prove the "north superiority". The waffen ss had secret, esoteric rituals, Hitler himself had a couple of mediums who predicted him the future.

Historians untill now have studied the effects of nazism, but not the real causes...

 

[Mitch]

Not really sure that I agree. I don't think Hitler excites in the slightest. Idiots who don't know much apart from hatred and such like link themselves to the nazi ideology because they need a label to attach their stupidity to and, the Nazi doctrine is fine for that.

Most would not even know anything about the development of the nazi movement. The whole movement was based on many writings and theories that contradicted each other and themselves.

Obviously, Nazism at its core was a racial ideology but, I think we have to be careful linking religion and nazi ideology.

You mention paganism and, there recently is a school of thought that Hitler was heavily influenced by neo paganism. There is no doubt that Hitler was influenced by people like Guido von Lust (surname may be wrong I don't have his works handy) who addressed things like the lost wisdom of Armanen the high caste of the priesthood of the pagan god Wotan.

I think the nazi party jumped from Darwanism to the Bible and everything in between to justify its origins without really deciding what it was about. How interested Hitler was in the Aryan history is debatable Himmler was at the crux of the expiditions for Schafer in the 1930's to document the superiority of the races.

Mein Kampf is also a mis mash of ideas if one reads it as were many of Hitlers speeches of the times where he really did not know what he was saying from the start of a speech to the end. In 1938 he stated Nazism was a Volkisch politic doctrine evoloving from racial insights based upon the sharpest scientific knowledge but, later in the speech he mentioned the nazi cult was one which respected nature and was divinly ordained!!

I think the nazi party developed due primarliy to socio economic conditions and then developed wider ideas about what it was for and what it was supposed to mean. because of this they hijacked a little from here and a little from there to combine what they thought were the bits that fitted what they needed.

Its quite a complex area as many historians etc have tried to grasp what it really meant but, really it meant very little IMO at least of substance to people like Hitler, and the other leaders of the Nazi party

Two interesting books or what I thought were interesting on the subjects are:

Sussannah Heschel The Aryan Jesus: Christian theology and the bible in nazi germany 2010

Richard Sleigmann: The Holy Reich: Nazi conceptions of Christianity 2003
Mitch

In historic books nazism is considered under many points of view: politic, military,society, criminals etc. But Nazism was for germans a "religion"( or the nazi tried to make it for all the germans ) and Hitler was the "god". I would say that it was a mixed of pagan religion and politics, that' s why Hitler excites even today people' s imagination almost to science fiction!

Actually, nazism was born like a religion,inspired by the " New Thule" , a secret swedish society which members ( like Goering, Rosenberg) belived in the " north superman" and other myths from german and scandinavian mythology (ex. the nazi considered the norvegians like the purest race). Hitler absorbed all this and decided to create a religion in which he was the god, that' s why Nazism is more a big sect than a politic movement, the religious part is the real essence of it. Also in " Indiana Jones" there is a part of reality: Himmler promoted searchings about "sacred graal",and escavations to find germanic relics and prove the "north superiority". The waffen ss had secret, esoteric rituals, Hitler himself had a couple of mediums who predicted him the future.

Historians untill now have studied the effects of nazism, but not the real causes...

 

[Scott]

You have to take into consideration the traditions of Luther and anti-semitism going waaay back.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

I believe that only high nazi excommunicated from the Roman Catholic church was Joseph Goebbels for marrying a Protestant. If Hitler didn't believe what he said about his religion and belief in god he certainly was playing to a theist audience when he did appeal to god and religion.

While the nazis had some "woo" ideas that play well on The History Channel, the Third Reich was a Christian franchize. Gott Mit Uns?

 

[Poppo]

Not really sure that I agree. I don't think Hitler excites in the slightest. Idiots who don't know much apart from hatred and such like link themselves to the nazi ideology because they need a label to attach their stupidity to and, the Nazi doctrine is fine for that.

Most would not even know anything about the development of the nazi movement. The whole movement was based on many writings and theories that contradicted each other and themselves.

Obviously, Nazism at its core was a racial ideology but, I think we have to be careful linking religion and nazi ideology.

You mention paganism and, there recently is a school of thought that Hitler was heavily influenced by neo paganism. There is no doubt that Hitler was influenced by people like Guido von Lust (surname may be wrong I don't have his works handy) who addressed things like the lost wisdom of Armanen the high caste of the priesthood of the pagan god Wotan.

I think the nazi party jumped from Darwanism to the Bible and everything in between to justify its origins without really deciding what it was about. How interested Hitler was in the Aryan history is debatable Himmler was at the crux of the expiditions for Schafer in the 1930's to document the superiority of the races.

Mein Kampf is also a mis mash of ideas if one reads it as were many of Hitlers speeches of the times where he really did not know what he was saying from the start of a speech to the end. In 1938 he stated Nazism was a Volkisch politic doctrine evoloving from racial insights based upon the sharpest scientific knowledge but, later in the speech he mentioned the nazi cult was one which respected nature and was divinly ordained!!

I think the nazi party developed due primarliy to socio economic conditions and then developed wider ideas about what it was for and what it was supposed to mean. because of this they hijacked a little from here and a little from there to combine what they thought were the bits that fitted what they needed.

Its quite a complex area as many historians etc have tried to grasp what it really meant but, really it meant very little IMO at least of substance to people like Hitler, and the other leaders of the Nazi party

Two interesting books or what I thought were interesting on the subjects are:

Sussannah Heschel The Aryan Jesus: Christian theology and the bible in nazi germany 2010

Richard Sleigmann: The Holy Reich: Nazi conceptions of Christianity 2003
Mitch

When I wrote that Hitler excites people' s imagination( I thought it was clear), I didn' t mean that people are charmed by him or appreciate what he did (apart from few stupid ignorants). I mean that he is an historic interesting and almost unic carachter. It is the charm of evil , a homeless who after few years made the world tremble...Many esoteric and mysterious sides....If you check any library, you will notice that the biggest number of biographies and discussions are about Hitler, one of the biggest monsters in history together with Stalin( much less interesting and grey ). This said, if you consider Hitler like an uninteresting carachter, you are free to think this....

 

[Scott]

................said, if you consider Hitler like an uninteresting carachter, you are free to think this....

No uninteresting but definately unappealing as a person. Would you have Hitler or Napoleon over for drinks? With both the conversation would be one sided but Napoleon would be more fun.

 

[Poppo]

No uninteresting but definately unappealing as a person. Would you have Hitler or Napoleon over for drinks? With both the conversation would be one sided but Napoleon would be more fun.

{sm4} If I can choose, I d prefer to have a drink with general Lee, or Ghandi, or Martin Luther King......Anyway, the subject was not : do you like Hitler or not; but if nazism was considered as religion in that historical time by german people.

 

[Scott]

{sm4} If I can choose, I d prefer to have a drink with general Lee, or Ghandi, or Martin Luther King......

"I like whiskey. I always did, and that is why I never drink it." Robert E. Lee


"Alcohol ruins one physically, morally, intellectually and economically,


Alcohol makes a man forget himself; and while its effects last, he becomes utterly incapable of doing anything useful. Those who take to drinking, ruin themselves and ruin their people. They lose all sense of decency and propriety."

Key to Health, P.32 Mahatma Gandhi

Anyway, the subject was not : do you like Hitler or not; but if nazism was considered as religion in that historical time by german people.

Well...it had a book nobody really read, rituals, martyrs, thought crime, heresy trials, and a cult of personality. Sounds like a Religion to me. Sounds like Stalin's Soviet Union to. Heaven comes "someday."

Since we don't have any actual 1930s 40s Germans here it's a guess what they thought.

 

[Jack]

If we remove some of the the distractions and view religion in secular terms, there is a good deal of truth in seeing Nazism as a religion. Like any understanding, however, it is incomplete, but it is quite fascinating as a starting point. If we start with Ninian Smart's Seven Dimensions of Religious Belief, it is quite clear that Nazism ticks each of the characteristics shared by religions:

1.Doctrinal
2.Mythological
3.Ethical
4.Ritual
5.Experiential
6.Institutional
7.Material

As an introductory lesson for students I have, merely for the purpose of distracting them from their mobile phones, often looked at cricket (for our US viewers, that is an exciting form of baseball{sm4}) as a belief system and can with some flexibility tick each of the seven dimensions. It is important not to see a description of Nazism as a religion as denigrating religious belief. If there is any doubt about the appropriateness of such a comparison, have a look at the footage of a night time flag and torch Nazi parade.

Regards

Jack

 

[Jack]

You have to take into consideration the traditions of Luther and anti-semitism going waaay back.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

I believe that only high nazi excommunicated from the Roman Catholic church was Joseph Goebbels for marrying a Protestant. If Hitler didn't believe what he said about his religion and belief in god he certainly was playing to a theist audience when he did appeal to god and religion.

While the nazis had some "woo" ideas that play well on The History Channel, the Third Reich was a Christian franchize. Gott Mit Uns?

If you ever get the chance read 'Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII' by John Cornwell. It is quite brilliant. As a Catholic myself, I never felt that it was anything other than a really high class piece of historical research.

 

[waynepoo]

If the Nazis were/is a religion then I'm glad I'm a atheist.
Wayne.

 

[Jack]

If the Nazis were/is a religion then I'm glad I'm a atheist.
Wayne.

Not as pleased as God!

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Apparently the whole deal didn't work out too well in the long run for them {sm2}

 

[Scott]

If you ever get the chance read 'Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII' by John Cornwell. It is quite brilliant. As a Catholic myself, I never felt that it was anything other than a really high class piece of historical research.

Thanks Jack, I'll take a look. Another way to annoy my Catholic "better half."


(this just in...I ordered a copy for a penny + shipping from Amazon.)


One difference with these politic cults is that if you "went along" you lived. When you died it was over without the belief that you would be punished or rewarded for eternity in some afterlife. Perhaps the Nazi party had some idea of a "Valhala" but I'd have to see documentation that the German people had the same pagan idea or a Christian Heaven/Hell belief.

 

[Scott]

Apparently the whole deal didn't work out too well in the long run for them {sm2}

Who knows? Maybe they were "right" and "we" were the forces of darkness. {eek3}

 

[Poppo]

If we remove some of the the distractions and view religion in secular terms, there is a good deal of truth in seeing Nazism as a religion. Like any understanding, however, it is incomplete, but it is quite fascinating as a starting point. If we start with Ninian Smart's Seven Dimensions of Religious Belief, it is quite clear that Nazism ticks each of the characteristics shared by religions:

1.Doctrinal
2.Mythological
3.Ethical
4.Ritual
5.Experiential
6.Institutional
7.Material

As an introductory lesson for students I have, merely for the purpose of distracting them from their mobile phones, often looked at cricket (for our US viewers, that is an exciting form of baseball{sm4}) as a belief system and can with some flexibility tick each of the seven dimensions. It is important not to see a description of Nazism as a religion as denigrating religious belief. If there is any doubt about the appropriateness of such a comparison, have a look at the footage of a night time flag and torch Nazi parade.

Regards

Jack

And 8. a semi-god living leading them ( not every religion can count on this!)

 

[Mitch]

well, that would through all the history books right out of the window!!
Mitch

Who knows? Maybe they were "right" and "we" were the forces of darkness. {eek3}

 

[Scott]

And 8. a semi-god living leading them ( not every religion can count on this!)

Emperor Hirohito.

North Korea has two dead leaders.


"Kim Il-sung's death resulted in nationwide mourning and a ten-day mourning period was declared by Kim Jong-il. His funeral in Pyongyang was attended by hundreds of thousands of people from all over North Korea, many of whom were mourning dramatically. Kim Il-sung's body was placed in a public mausoleum at the Kumsusan Memorial Palace, where his preserved and embalmed body lies under a glass coffin for viewing purposes."



"On 12 January 2012 North Korea called Kim Jong-il the "eternal leader" and announced that his body will be preserved and displayed at Pyongyang's Kumsusan Memorial Palace. Officials will also install statues, portraits, and "towers to his immortality" across the country.[SUP][124][/SUP][SUP][125][/SUP] His birthday of 16 February has been declared "the greatest auspicious holiday of the nation", and has been named the Day of the Shining Star.[SUP][126]"[/SUP]


"In February 2012, on what would have been his 70th birthday, Kim Jong-il posthumously was made Dae Wonsu (roughly translated as Grand Marshal), the nation's top military rank. He had been named Wonsu, (Marshal) in 1992 when North Korea founder Kim Il-sung was promoted to Dae Wonsu.[SUP][127]"[/SUP]

 

[Scott]

well, that would through all the history books right out of the window!!
Mitch

Bwaa hahahahahahahah! (evil laugh) WE write the history books! {sm4}{sm4}{sm4}

Decent people hate the Westboro Baptist Church (Google it) here in the States but they do have "authority" from the "top" for their beliefs and actions.

Might be the same authority that Hitler appealed to get the support of the German people. Then there is good old tribalism, hate, and fear to make people who think they are threatened (lost war and Depression) go along. Point out past greatness or exagerate it.

 

[Jack]

Bwaa hahahahahahahah! (evil laugh) WE write the history books! {sm4}{sm4}{sm4}

Decent people hate the Westboro Baptist Church (Google it) here in the States but they do have "authority" from the "top" for their beliefs and actions.

Might be the same authority that Hitler appealed to get the support of the German people. Then there is good old tribalism, hate, and fear to make people who think they are threatened (lost war and Depression) go along. Point out past greatness or exagerate it.

The Westboro Baptist Church provide very few laughs other than their description of Australia on their Wikipedia entry. Amidst a list of all the awful things they have said or done, to be described as a citizen of the "land of the sodomite ****ed" made me laugh. Normally most people say 'Downunder', 'Oz' or 'The Lucky Country'. We should use that in our tourist promtions rather than the awful 'throw another shrimp on the barbie' ads with Paul Hogan.

 

[waynepoo]

The Westboro Baptist Church provide very few laughs other than their description of Australia on their Wikipedia entry. Amidst a list of all the awful things they have said or done, to be described as a citizen of the "land of the sodomite ****ed" made me laugh. Normally most people say 'Downunder', 'Oz' or 'The Lucky Country'. We should use that in our tourist promtions rather than the awful 'throw another shrimp on the barbie' ads with Paul Hogan.

Just read the Wikipedia entry of this church of complete nutters, adding the other religious lunatics in the world and their maddness is why I am an atheisist.
Wayne.