Tom has an eye for detail (1 Viewer)

[Panzer Meyer]

Still too clean for me. I automatically repaint and weather all my figures and AFV's that I use in a dio.
Recently I repainted the K&C Armoured jeep for a "Operation Nordwind" dio. Hope you like the result.
guy
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Outsatnding work Guy great job.

 

[Firebat]

Firebat,

This guys models are what toy soldier/military minatures need to look like. Thomas Gunn take note!

http://www.geocities.jp/shige122112/tank.html

I have had conversations with many of the manufacturers over the past few years and I feel they are a bit afraid to deviate from the norm. They don't hear the voices of us modeler types who are screaming at the top of our lungs for more grit......... K&C basically sets the pace for the industry and their success is a model for the other manufacturers. But the one who gets the nerve to move heavy into the grit direction, I think will be very surprised and successful.

Boy do I wish I owned a Company !


Figarti is the boldest as far as grit.

First Legion obviously is very model like and Matt liked what we did with his Stug, but he would not move the company totally in that direction.

John Jenkins has not done WWII as if yet, but his tanks have a little grit

And Toms Vehicles have some grit also.

I really like K&C's winter vehicles, their other stuff is a bit brighter.

The Collectors showcase is hard to pinpoint, but I like their stuff and I have a lot of it. Nick and I plan on working over their stuff big time. I think they are going to look good all messed up. And they are big. I like that massiveness.

So all of the manufacturers seem to be creeping to the dark side.

BSP has been mostly concerned with scenery....But in the near future we are going to give our AFV's and Figures a lot of revamping. We cant wait !

 

[Mitch]

Interesting points
Mitch

 

[blue max]

I have had conversations with many of the manufacturers over the past few years and I feel they are a bit afraid to deviate from the norm. They don't hear the voices of us modeler types who are screaming at the top of our lungs for more grit......... K&C basically sets the pace for the industry and their success is a model for the other manufacturers. But the one who gets the nerve to move heavy into the grit direction, I think will be very surprised and successful.

Boy do I wish I owned a Company !


Figarti is the boldest as far as grit.

First Legion obviously is very model like and Matt liked what we did with his Stug, but he would not move the company totally in that direction.

John Jenkins has not done WWII as if yet, but his tanks have a little grit

And Toms Vehicles have some grit also.

I really like K&C's winter vehicles, their other stuff is a bit brighter.

The Collectors showcase is hard to pinpoint, but I like their stuff and I have a lot of it. Nick and I plan on working over their stuff big time. I think they are going to look good all messed up. And they are big. I like that massiveness.

So all of the manufacturers seem to be creeping to the dark side.

BSP has been mostly concerned with scenery....But in the near future we are going to give our AFV's and Figures a lot of revamping. We cant wait !

Very well said...Ron {bravo}}

 

[Firebat]

Guys

BSP has been around the block a few times, and when we speak too loudly many get offended. So we have toned down. REMEMBER we are NOT a business we are just Modeler / Collectors like you, we have no agenda, yet we do know a bit of what goes on behind the scenes, maybe more than most.

We would never hurt anyone and we strive for what is best for all. We know both sides of the story ours and the manufacturere/ dealers. REMEMBER we are the income for the Manufacturers / Dealers, they have to listen to us, or we will not buy their products and they will go out of business.

Don't treat them like Gods, you control this industry, not them. You tell them what you want and if they dont deliver, dont buy their products, and reward those that do.

For the most part I think they are all doing a decent job.

 

[Firebat]

Just to get back on track. I respect Tom for listening to our suggestions and TGM has an eye for detail.

 

[Warrior]

This whole realism thing comes up every now and again regarding toy soldiers.

Hunter Rose, nice pictures you posted from that modelers website, brilliant work that gentleman does.

As far as toy soldiers vs military miniatures/model kits and figures; apples to hand grenades. Modelers spend hundreds of man hours on figures and tanks like the ones in the pictures you posted. Toy soldier figures and vehicles are mass produced in factories, not built and painted one at a time by a master modeler.

If you want off the charts realism and detail, then guess what; you are going to pay for it. If you wanted that sort of detail on a tank from K & C, CS, FL, etc, etc, what do you think it would cost? 200.00 to 300.00 like they do now? Nope, try twice that.

Is the AVERAGE toy soldier collector going to pay that much for a tank; no, he is not.

I'd be curious as to what Mitch thinks of this, or Nick, both of whom are very skilled modelers and painters.

Mitch, if a customer came to you and asked you to do a repaint on a K & C tank, say to a different paint scheme, I assume you'd charge a certain amount for your time. If the same customer came to you and wanted extra battle damage, rusted chains, stowage, open hatches, bent and damaged side skirts, then I assume you'd charge a lot more for your time?

And Nick, if a customer came to you and wanted a basic model of the Hartenstein Hotel, you'd charge a certain amount, but if the same customer wanted total interior detail, wallpaper on the walls, hot and cold running water, the grounds around the hotel as well, then you'd have to charge more for you time?

Again, the point is the more realism you add, the more detail and time is involved, thus the cost goes up.

Alex people like you who are avid modelers have the skills to add all the realism you want; most do not, so if realism is so important to you, then you have the ability to do it, you don't need the manufacturer doing it when you in fact can do it yourself.

It all comes down to what will the AVERAGE collector want and also be willing to pay; trust me, if people said the sky was the limit as to what they'd pay, you'd see realism off the charts from the manufacturers.........................

 

[fmethorst]

This was definitely true for the Honour Bound Gold Series. By time I had the custom paint colors/schemes and details I wanted the price was well above the $350 starting point and justifiably so there was a lot more work involved. Add the shipping from Argentina and it became quite expensive. As to whether people would pay the price, the demise of the Gold series says no.

This whole realism thing comes up every now and again regarding toy soldiers.

Hunter Rose, nice pictures you posted from that modelers website, brilliant work that gentleman does.

As far as toy soldiers vs military miniatures/model kits and figures; apples to hand grenades. Modelers spend hundreds of man hours on figures and tanks like the ones in the pictures you posted. Toy soldier figures and vehicles are mass produced in factories, not built and painted one at a time by a master modeler.

If you want off the charts realism and detail, then guess what; you are going to pay for it. If you wanted that sort of detail on a tank from K & C, CS, FL, etc, etc, what do you think it would cost? 200.00 to 300.00 like they do now? Nope, try twice that.

Is the AVERAGE toy soldier collector going to pay that much for a tank; no, he is not.

I'd be curious as to what Mitch thinks of this, or Nick, both of whom are very skilled modelers and painters.

Mitch, if a customer came to you and asked you to do a repaint on a K & C tank, say to a different paint scheme, I assume you'd charge a certain amount for your time. If the same customer came to you and wanted extra battle damage, rusted chains, stowage, open hatches, bent and damaged side skirts, then I assume you'd charge a lot more for your time?

And Nick, if a customer came to you and wanted a basic model of the Hartenstein Hotel, you'd charge a certain amount, but if the same customer wanted total interior detail, wallpaper on the walls, hot and cold running water, the grounds around the hotel as well, then you'd have to charge more for you time?

Again, the point is the more realism you add, the more detail and time is involved, thus the cost goes up.

Alex people like you who are avid modelers have the skills to add all the realism you want; most do not, so if realism is so important to you, then you have the ability to do it, you don't need the manufacturer doing it when you in fact can do it yourself.

It all comes down to what will the AVERAGE collector want and also be willing to pay; trust me, if people said the sky was the limit as to what they'd pay, you'd see realism off the charts from the manufacturers.........................

 

[Phantom Warrior]

As a Dealer, George sells the products of several companies in their various price ranges. He sells face to face to buyers and is in the perfect position to see what brands people buy and how much they are influenced by price. I'd love a gold HB Tiger - but not for $600. For some collectors, there is a trad-off of detail vs price.

Terry

 

[Mitch]

George..

I agree about the fact that the detail that alex and hunter rose are seemingly asking for would exclude a substantial amount of collectors and, had in mind HB before Frank mentioned it as an exemplor of how it does not work.

I also know from the many collectors who I have done work for that they do not want weathering and detailing like plastic models have as they want them still to blend and fit with their existing collection. so, from my experience they want a certain amount of weathering to make it loo realistic but, not enough to make it look like a stand alone AFV or figure.

I don't know what you are asking about what I would charge for painting and detailing but, I don't add extra on for a bit of detailing and painting chains or adding a bit of mud. The work takes minutes to do and most is paint style work unless someone wants real rust applied but, I can paint rust as easy as adding real rust products and make it look the same.

Conversion work is also limited in our hobby to taking off skirts mud guards etc but, takes so little effort its negligble in terms of time. the sets we have in our hobby are so easy to dismatle and put together its amazing. I have just taken aprt a TG dodge and the citroen staff car of K&C and it took five minutes to strip them down for a repaint. I do get peeved a bit when I see people only doing half a job but charging full job prices. If someone asks me to do a repaint thats what they get. not leaving the sprockets of an AFV or the inside of a cb on blitz trucks or half tracks thats just slack IMO. Same with dio's dead easy to do and, all the materials are so cheap

I do it because I enjoy it primarily not to just make money and, often I do it for trade couple of chickens and some eggs like the old days!!!!

I also think we are often charged because there is some air of mystery and speciality about painting weathering or dio work but, its not to me and, I am always slighty bemused when people say its hard or, make out its a big job!!!

don't know if that answers your question but, I have probably annoyed a few painters and others saying its easy work!! hey hoo!!
Mitch

 

[Hunter Rose]

This whole realism thing comes up every now and again regarding toy soldiers.

Hunter Rose, nice pictures you posted from that modelers website, brilliant work that gentleman does.

As far as toy soldiers vs military miniatures/model kits and figures; apples to hand grenades. Modelers spend hundreds of man hours on figures and tanks like the ones in the pictures you posted. Toy soldier figures and vehicles are mass produced in factories, not built and painted one at a time by a master modeler.

If you want off the charts realism and detail, then guess what; you are going to pay for it. If you wanted that sort of detail on a tank from K & C, CS, FL, etc, etc, what do you think it would cost? 200.00 to 300.00 like they do now? Nope, try twice that.

Is the AVERAGE toy soldier collector going to pay that much for a tank; no, he is not.

I think the intention of me posting the detailed model pictures came across wrong. I posted them just to illustrate the dirty and gritty paint jobs and look I like. I wholly realize that that fine level of detail like metal tracks and metal twisted schurzen is cost prohibitive.

Honestly, I am more than happy with the current level of detail in the toy soldier market today.I just want more of the tanks/planes to come with more weathered looking beat up paint jobs, along with the figures, which are often too bright and perfectly painted for my eye. This is perfectly doable, as many good looking weathered items are on the market today. The Thomas Gunn winter SdKfz 253 looks good, as does the Winter Hetzer. The TG Winter SS troopers show some dirt on the trousers, whereas I think "The Raiders" set is too pristine looking, but the poses and detail of this set is great. As others have stated, the King and Country Winter items tend to be much more weathered and their new Downed Me109 has a nicely weathered paintjob with numerous bullet holes on the canopy (a nice touch). The Collectors Showcase Easy 8 Winter Sherman also has a very nicely weathered paint scheme. All of these paint schemes look much better than, say, my King and Country newer version Bulge King Tiger which is perfectly painted without a bit of dirt or chipped paint on it.

These types of details and paint jobs are the trend I would like to see continued. Thomas Gunn has quickly become my go to company for figures because their sculpts are great as is their attention to detail. Their new armor looks great and decently weathered. I hope they continue with this trend towards more weathering. I love my recently purchased SS Battle Group, Raiders, Winter Gebirgsjager Sniper, and Winter Command post. I would love them even more if they had more dirt on their trousers!

 

[Hunter Rose]

I also think we are often charged because there is some air of mystery and speciality about painting weathering or dio work but, its not to me and, I am always slighty bemused when people say its hard or, make out its a big job!!!

Excellent point! They are able to do it because people like me exist, who have absolutely no artistic talent. I dabbled in modeling as a kid, and was great at gluing them together, but I could never achieve the painted look that more talented people like yourself and others can. To me it is amazing how you can just sit down and paint figures/vehicles to look like they do.

 

[Firebat]

I am with Hunter and I understand where he is coming from...The manufacturers have an incredible amount of detail given the limitations. Maybe they could just grit them a bit more. But actually I got carried away, if they choose not to, I can do the rest myself.


We have MIG and AK Interactive coming on board with us. They both make incredible finishing products. Soon Nick and I will be armed and dangerous with these products. We have How To Books....How To DVD's and some testing to do.

Lets see how far we can push the bar. We are very optimistic.

George spoke about man hours, there would be no significant man hours expended to grit them a bit more, and make the growing numbers "Gritters" happy.

No they will never be scale plastic models......... We were just toying around with this Tiger before we received the new products, now lets see what we can do with this new technology

By the way Tom's new Hetzers look excellent !

Alex

 

[Guy]

Alex,
I work with AK interactive and I can tell you the results ( after a bit of practice) look fantastic.Their streaking grimes, washes and worn effects are wonderful. The results obtained are amazing.
I will tackle the TG SdKfz 253 with these products you will see the results very soon
guy:smile2:

 

[Mitch]

Guys..

Been using migs stuff for years now and, to be honest don't know how I worked before without them. AK products are excellent addition but, I am glad that I learned all the tricks to do this stuff before these products came out. I still use my own way to replicate the worn effect in winter wash.

I also find abteilung products really good also

Alex...

Think it would be to difficult for manufacturers and too expensive for collectors for weathering that your talking about to be done in factories with the speed and schedules these chinese guys paint to. things are pricy enough without adding things like this which, for the vast majority are not required
Mitch

 

[Warrior]

Thanks for the input Mitch as I appreciate it coming from someone who has some mad skills at repainting and weathering vehicles.

I'm in Alex's camp as far as weathering/adding stowage/battle damage as Iv'e done the same with a lot of my 1/72nd scal diecast tanks that come from the manufacturer looking like they just rolled off of the assembly line; the vast majority of my customers who buy the diecast from me prefer the just out of the factory look, to each his own.......

 

[Firebat]

Actually I am very happy, with most of the products produced. If all I have to do is weathering, washing, dry brushing adding some stowage etc., that is fine. It actually makes the piece I own more unique. Not having to build the model any more is the real benefit.

I have been really digesting my collection as of late, and there are mayy pieces from many manufacturers I cant wait to tackle.

We are now going to shift our focus on the total scene, matching the wear on the vehicle to the enviornment.


Guy

Cant wait to see that project you mentioned above.

Alex