Top Ten Tanks (3 Viewers)

Moving off topic somewhat- were any of the German high command in favor of moving to the larger panthers and Tigers and KTs?? Were Rommel and/or Guderian in favor of the "bigger is better" train of thought or was this one of Adolph's ideas?

Guderian was totally against the bigger is better approach. He wanted a lot of medium tanks and tank destroyers with excellent high velocity guns. His book Panzer Commander indicates that he constantly argued with Hitler that building 10 Panzer Iv's was a lot better than building one Tiger with the same resources. Towards the end of the war, one of Hitler's cronies in the armament industry was trying to push through a giant tank that made the experimental Maus look tiny. Guderian talks about how foolish this waste of resources was. As Panda points out, Guderian wanted a copy of the T34. Had Hitler produced a whole bunch of copies of this tank, with a high velocity 76mm or 88mm main gun, imagine the havoc he would have wrought on our forces.
 
Guderian was totally against the bigger is better approach. He wanted a lot of medium tanks and tank destroyers with excellent high velocity guns. His book Panzer Commander indicates that he constantly argued with Hitler that building 10 Panzer Iv's was a lot better than building one Tiger with the same resources. Towards the end of the war, one of Hitler's cronies in the armament industry was trying to push through a giant tank that made the experimental Maus look tiny. Guderian talks about how foolish this waste of resources was. As Panda points out, Guderian wanted a copy of the T34. Had Hitler produced a whole bunch of copies of this tank, with a high velocity 76mm or 88mm main gun, imagine the havoc he would have wrought on our forces.

Hey Brad - call this moderating??????:eek:

Can't you start an argument?:D:D:D
 
So what about the Churchill then - does it make the top ten?

Absolutely!!! For the name alone!!!!

Wow!! 6'6"- that is one TALL guy!! I go 6'2" myself.

I bought Panzer Leader a couple years back and haven't been able to crack it yet- too wrapped up in reading about the Ancients!! :D:D I had to think that he was against it just given his steadfast belief in blitzkrieg. What about Rommel?? I am reading "DDay" by Ambrose and want to think I read that he was in favor, to some measure, of the heavier cats??

I hate this hobby- keeps me WAY TOO busy!!!
 
Absolutely!!! For the name alone!!!!

Wow!! 6'6"- that is one TALL guy!! I go 6'2" myself.

I bought Panzer Leader a couple years back and haven't been able to crack it yet- too wrapped up in reading about the Ancients!! :D:D I had to think that he was against it just given his steadfast belief in blitzkrieg. What about Rommel?? I am reading "DDay" by Ambrose and want to think I read that he was in favor, to some measure, of the heavier cats??

I hate this hobby- keeps me WAY TOO busy!!!

I found that heavy going. A good 'incidental' account is Alan Clarkes Barbarrossa.

Reading about the tension between the military and the politicians makes you realise 'c'est le mem chose' whowever you fight for. Guderian was sacked by Hitler and brought back when the 'panzer problem' became acute.

They no longer had enough stukas and artillery - especially AT guns of sufficient punch - to dent the increasing numbers of T34 and KV tanks, and they had just lost 250 000 men and their equipment at Stalingrad.

Guderian still 'did his nut' on many occassions due to the interference - but read Wavell, Auchinleck, etc etc - there must have been some on the US side - don't mention Patton.

Ooops mentioned him but think I got away with it?
 
As we have gone over before - the US Armored doctrine favored a weapon with good HE capability over AP. Yes, they were certainly incorrect, but by the time we absorbed the combat lessons it was too late to affect operations in Europe.

By the way, referencing "Report of Operations, First US Army" one of the statistical references shows that there was FOUR TIMES as much 75mm HE as AP fired. The 75 was a fine artillery weapon, descended from the classic French 75mm M1897. The 76mm was slightly less capable as an HE thrower and the 17-pounder came in dead last. The British AT guns of the period were good hole punchers, but the HE shells for them were so-so at best. (Personally, my feeling is that IF the US had adopted the 17-pounder that the HE "problem" could have been addressed). If the Shermans all had 17-pounders the USMC would never have wanted to use them - they wanted that 75mm (even keeping some post-WW2). As far as HE throwing, the original request for upgraded tanks in the ETOUSA (made before DDay) was to have half of them with 90mm guns and half with 105mm howitzers (the reason for the production of the M45 howitzer-armed version of the Pershing). US armor doctrine was still in flux as the Allies invaded Europe. How could Ordnance provide a new tank when the users couldn't finalize just what they wanted?

On to the ammo question: the HVAP (Hyper-Velocity Armor Piercing) shot for the 76mm gun used a tugsten penetrator core. This was similiar to the British APDS, except that the outer part of the shot didn't peel away. The problem was that tungsten was not only in short supply, but it is essential in the tool making industries. Every batch of tungsten used in ammunition meant that many less machine tools, etc to make new plane, tanks and ship parts. It's like John Gambale's want lists - you just CAN'T have everything at once! American doctrine relied on the TD's as primary anti-armor gun platforms - so they good the bulk of the "hot" ammo. The short supply is why most 76mm Shermans got about 2rds/month of HVAP and some crews never saw it during wartime.

The carnage at Normandy was not due as much to the deffective tanks as to outdated doctrine, mediocre training and a lack of appreciation of the terrain. Every unit had to learn that you can't charge tanks through hedgerow country. The German tanks were only a part of the problem. The Germans were well supplied with close-in AT weapons (PanzerFaust and Panzerschreck) as well as towed AT guns. They were trained in how to coordinate them effectively in combination with the countryside. The German army and their SS buddies were tenacious defenders and knew the tricks of the trade. The managed to bleed the US and British for every yard gained in Normandy. The US Army had to build up from nothing to a huge army in just a couple years. In the haste to build units they shorted tank-infantry cooperation training. Every unit committed to Normandy seemed to have to learn the hard way - how to take the hedgerows, how to work with tanks, how to get the best use out of air support, etc. That was one tough school!

Did the Sherman change suddenly in late July? I don't hear anybody discussing how bad the tank was in taking Paris or in pursuing the Germans right back to their own border. How about Patton's Lorraine campaign? US M4s and Free French M4A2s chewed up Panthers in brigade after brigade. Most of the Allied tanks had the old 75mm guns. In these battles the Sherman fought the battle its designers aimed for - breakout and pursuit. The M4-types worked just fine in the fall, which is strangely unfortunate as it took away the urgency for a new tank. The Sherman was forced into close country combat with German armor again in the winter and was found wanting. It wasn't a tank to stand and slug it out with the Panzers, but it was forced into that role on narrow roads in the Ardennes. That's when the major hue and cry went up about our tanks.

So the Sherman certainly wasn't the "best" tank, but it was better than many tanks of WW2. It enabled the US Army to expand from being smaller than the Portugese Army to a huge instrument of victory with Shermans ending up in ALL the Axis capital cities. No Panther or Tiger can ever claim that kind of success in spite of their technology.

Gary

Great post & spot on ;)
 
Guderian was sacked by Hitler and brought back when the 'panzer problem' became acute.

Guderian was sacked by Hitler because he was one of the only commanders who would stand up to him. Fortunately for the rest of the world, Hitler liked being surrounded by yes men. Guderian warned Hitler not to invade Russia, and ended up sitting on the sidelines for a couple of years.
 
Nice to hear everyones view on the Sherman. Thanks guys for all that Info! Finally, I do believe it was criminal for the Dept of Defense at the time, to not upgrade those Shermans with a 90mm main gun, to give our tank crews at least a fighting chance against those Tigers. The United States surely had the industrial might to do it, and they did not! It would have made a huge difference to have so many Shermans with the firepower to inflict heavy damage to those big German tanks. So the Sherman wasn't the best tank, but the little fat fella never gave up and fought a good fight!
 
I
but the comet was good and the centurion was the best of the war bar none! That should start an argument!:eek:

No it won't :rolleyes:

OK, I'll bite.
The Centurion might have been the best of the war, if it had made it in time to see combat service, as opposed to arriving in prototype form during May 45 after the party had finished.

Simon
 
No it won't :rolleyes:

OK, I'll bite.
The Centurion might have been the best of the war, if it had made it in time to see combat service, as opposed to arriving in prototype form during May 45 after the party had finished.

Simon

Ha:D
 
OK you guys - if you won't bite on the other argument :p - name the top three tanks per year of the war in order!

1939
Somua
Matilda 2
Pz4 A-C


1940
T34
Somua
Matilda 2

1941
KV1
T34
Pz3 J

!942
Tiger 1
T34
Pz4 G

1943
Panther A
Tiger 1
T34

1944
Panther G
Tiger 2
T34/85

!945
JS2
Panther G
Tiger 2
 
OK you guys - if you won't bite on the other argument :p - name the top three tanks per year of the war in order!

1939
Somua
Matilda 2
Pz4 A-C

1940
T34
Somua
Matilda 2

1941
KV1
T34
Pz3 J

!942
Tiger 1
T34
Pz4 G

1943
Panther A
Tiger 1
T34

1944
Panther G
Tiger 2
T34/85

!945
JS2
Panther G
Tiger 2

Hi Kevin,
I'll bite. My votes are highlighted in the quote above.
Cheers
H
 
Kevin-

I think your list looks pretty solid- just curious in the 1945 designations- how do you rate the JS over the KT- (I am assuming that is what you meant there).

Also, what were the big selling points on the KV-1- especially to rank it over the T34? This is a tank I have only recently begun to learn about (as well as the JS series) so I am interested in what your thoughts are here.

The Somua was such a good tank but so poorly deployed. I cannot imagine a better tank that was so poorly deployed in battle.
 
I guess it all depends on what your criteria is for a good tank, naturally the best tanks came out near the end of the war as technology improved.

Things that keep coming back to me are from the people that survived the battles in a particular tank.

One was from a German tanker who's platoon of Tiger tanks (there were 3 of them)went head to head with like 50 T34's and smoked them all. The there was the film clip of a Pershing going head to head with a Panther, scratch one Panther.

If three Tigers can take out 50 T34's, obviously in that particular situation the Tiger was better then the T34. However, the T34 probably had the greater impact then the Tiger in the entire war. So, which one is better? It's sort of like arguing over who was the greatest boxer of all time.
 
Ok - first thing I thought of was - which would you like to be in or not be facing?

1939/40

The Matilda was invulnerable to any AT gun opposing it at the time and had the 2pdr gun - the best AT gun of its day - but 8mph top speed.

The Somua - I agree with Chris - if it had been used by Rommel for example, would have been famous, it had a good balance of firepower, mobility and armour. It may have survived a hit from the 2pdr so that edged it into number one for me - the matilda would have survided the pz4 and Somua unless a lucky hit......

Pz4 - all round balance and high explosive capability.

All were obsolete as soon as the T34 came on the scene.

!941

KV1 more difficult and expensive to make but 'heavy' tank made it practically invulnerable to most the germans could throw except 88mm plus artillery, T34 argubly still the best but I personally would not have wanted to face a KV1 at that time. One held up a division on a narrow woodland trail to Leningrad for days........

Upgunned L60 50mm and better amrour on Pz3, called Mark 3 special by the desert troops, still no use against a T34.

1942

Note the germans did not take the lead until now with the Tiger - nearly put pz4 second - still not sure about that, but by now there were hordes of T34 rather BT tanks, so that edged it for me.

Although rare - in fact very rare, Tiger was such a monster it created an immense psychological weapon, hence its enduring fame - so every German tank became a Tiger.

1943

T34 is improved with heavier armour, more of them but 76mm gun no match for germans though probably for every other tank including the sherman.

Panther A reliable and with armour, mobility and optics aligned with L70 gun would take out T34 at 2km plus. Tiger poor mobility, fuel use etc but otherwise still an immense weapon.

1944

Panther G superb. KT - ummed and aaahed here, not many of them and air power more important..............still would not wanted to meet one live.....

T34/85 might be the best due to the probability of meeting one, but not as good as the panther?

!945

I put the JS2 there because they took Berlin! 122mm would kill a Tiger if it hit, there were more of them, superb armour, mobility and reliability and better HE capability.

Tough call though - KT: 'almost rans' JS3, Centurion, Pershing etc, everyone else was catching the Russians up.

Just some thoughts.....................
 
Well, if you put it that way, I'd rather not go up against a Tiger.
 
Here are my Top Ten Tanks:

1) Leopard II

2) Leopard II

3) Leopard II

4) Leopard II

5) Leopard II

6) Leopard II

7) Leopard II

8) Leopard II

9) Leopard II

10) Leopard II

A GREAT TANK and I know their KMW Lobbyist in Washington. ;)
 
Here are my Top Ten Tanks:

1) Leopard II

2) Leopard II

3) Leopard II

4) Leopard II

5) Leopard II

6) Leopard II

7) Leopard II

8) Leopard II

9) Leopard II

10) Leopard II

A GREAT TANK and I know their KMW Lobbyist in Washington. ;)

Sir-

I take it then that you are not a fan of the Leopard II?? :p
Your post leaves me a bit confused- must be a bad transmission over the net.
 
Chris,

I am on the road and dont have good email connectivity I got you message and will reply next week. Good to hear from you. By the way The Abrams Rules The Field and dont let that lobbist sell you on the LeoII.

Hell On Whells!

Dave
 

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