Great post, Michael. Glossies are still far below the matte price point and as I too see them as TS, regardless of semantics, I still will purchase glossies. I have been, as I have said, priced out of the matte figure market, except for aircraft and vehicles on a limited basis (until more price increases push me out of those, as well). Glossies are still quite affordable and have become much more attractive, to me, as a result. -- Al
Toy Soldier Pricing.....How Much Is Too Much ? (2 Viewers)
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Currahee Chris
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Well, I've made my decision and I am going to stick to it.
The price increases have caused me to cancel plans on several theaters- I accepted it as reality. Looking back over the past decade plus, not sure I would be as willing to jump into collecting as I was in 2000. I still recall getting Yanks 03 at $30 and hoping the wife would let me off with a company grade art 15. {sm4} It was pretty nice back then as I could collect not only several different ranges but also several different scales.
Soooooo, that being said, I nearly pulled the trigger last year and picked up two ST. Pete Romans I wanted that were priced at $165 each. I rationalized it as the fact that these would be "shock and awe" figures designed to captivate the audience in much the same way a tank would/could. Fortunately, I held off and several new and exciting Romans will be released in the $30- $55 range.
The only "must-have" that ever existed for me was the American Abrams tank. Figarti delivered at $239. I have been very fortunate to get in on the ground floor and have all the other armor (WW2 era) I need to nothing really appeals so me today- especially at the expense of another Abrams in the ranks.
To break it down- my three major areas of collecting and what I see as price ceilings:
1.) Modern- AFVs $239 tops. Figures- yeah, I would actually pay upwards of $60each depending on manufacturer, pose and paint job.
2.) Rome- individuals figures not more than $55 {sm4}. Mounted in the neighborhood of $120 or so and other things like onager, scorpio, etcs probably not more than $200- again, based on manufacturer, pose and paint job.
3.) WW2- this part of my collection is in the matured stage so I am not going to pay more than whatever Brian at Collector's Showcase or Thomas Gunn decides to charge {sm4}
And there you have it.
BTW- Mitch- I think you, and a lot of people- myself included- would be shocked at how many "kids" are in this hobby. The numbers might surprise you.
The price increases have caused me to cancel plans on several theaters- I accepted it as reality. Looking back over the past decade plus, not sure I would be as willing to jump into collecting as I was in 2000. I still recall getting Yanks 03 at $30 and hoping the wife would let me off with a company grade art 15. {sm4} It was pretty nice back then as I could collect not only several different ranges but also several different scales.
Soooooo, that being said, I nearly pulled the trigger last year and picked up two ST. Pete Romans I wanted that were priced at $165 each. I rationalized it as the fact that these would be "shock and awe" figures designed to captivate the audience in much the same way a tank would/could. Fortunately, I held off and several new and exciting Romans will be released in the $30- $55 range.
The only "must-have" that ever existed for me was the American Abrams tank. Figarti delivered at $239. I have been very fortunate to get in on the ground floor and have all the other armor (WW2 era) I need to nothing really appeals so me today- especially at the expense of another Abrams in the ranks.
To break it down- my three major areas of collecting and what I see as price ceilings:
1.) Modern- AFVs $239 tops. Figures- yeah, I would actually pay upwards of $60each depending on manufacturer, pose and paint job.
2.) Rome- individuals figures not more than $55 {sm4}. Mounted in the neighborhood of $120 or so and other things like onager, scorpio, etcs probably not more than $200- again, based on manufacturer, pose and paint job.
3.) WW2- this part of my collection is in the matured stage so I am not going to pay more than whatever Brian at Collector's Showcase or Thomas Gunn decides to charge {sm4}
And there you have it.
BTW- Mitch- I think you, and a lot of people- myself included- would be shocked at how many "kids" are in this hobby. The numbers might surprise you.
Mitch
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Depends on the definition of kids and, what amount of money they are spending but, who can tell anyone this???. I view kids as say 8 onwards I was heavily into soldiers and the history of WWII by that age but, even with an affluent family I was not given products that were hundereds of pounds, it was a gradiant of acqusition and now I have my own money. we can certainly not gauge anything really on here as there must be many thousands of people collecting.
I go by Andy stating that his products were aimed at the older collectors and, from the ones I have met and spoken too most are older than I am so, I suppose I could be classed as a kid not, sure how old you are??
Mitch
I go by Andy stating that his products were aimed at the older collectors and, from the ones I have met and spoken too most are older than I am so, I suppose I could be classed as a kid not, sure how old you are??
Mitch
Currahee Chris
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At one point in time he used to also say that he made toy soldiers for the "Average" collector. Go figure.
I define kids as the 14+ age. Me- my eldest son says I am a 9 year old trapped in a 38 year old body so I believe the answer is somewhere in between. :tongue:
FWIW- I think "kids" do a better job of scrounging for deals than adults do. It never fails to amaze me how the discussions are so different when guests go in my basement and see my collections/displays- Kids "Whoa, That is freakin awesome, COOOOOL!!! etc " Adults " *** were you thinking". I'll take a kids response any day and twice on Sunday.
Somewhere in the last 10-15 years, kids "discretionary" income flew off the charts. Ever been to a warhammer event?? The money "kids" throw at that game is insane. Heck, the Nintendo DS costs more than probably all the toys I received from ages 8-16- and that's adjusted for inflation. I firmly believe that there are a decent amount of kid collectors who spend a lot more than I do in this endeavour.
Spitfrnd
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I can only follow a little of this Michael but I think you are saying you prefer quantity over detail, which is fine and a choice we all get to make. I doubt there is anyone would not enjoy paying less for what they buy but for some of us, that is not an option that matches our tastes.
thebritfarmer
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What is wrong with that? and there are plenty of manufacturers that make glossy figures with lots of detail.
PanzerAce1944
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There are a lot of interesting takes on this topic. One of the most recent ones brought up mentioned lesser quality/greater quantity figures at a lesser price.This is an option but on a case by case basis. I prefer the best, top offerings available in 1/30 scale figures. I guess individually we will all draw the line when it comes down to price and quality. Happy Collecting To All !!!
maddadicus
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Look at any Beau Geste gloss set and tell me where is the lack of detail..Guy on horse with 4 marching figures for $156.00..The matte folks might bemoan that $75.00 to $125.00 they are paying for 1 cavalry piece now, but do not tell me that they must give up their TS passion, when there are and always have been great other options out there...Michael
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VIRIATO
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Currahee Chris
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I agree 100%. I think it will be interesting to see how the increased prices of matte figures impacts the hobby- will buyers steer towards plastics, will more collectors start painting and casting their own? will more collectors switch to different scales? Ironically enough, I think over the next 18 months I may be splitting the defense budget 50/50- traditional matte toy soldiers I buy and picking up scenic pieces I need that still seem to be relatively reasonably priced all things considered.
Could spark even more interest/demand for older Britains/KC figures as well. Either way, I gotta believe collectors will still collect, I just think there are certain niches of the hobby that are going to experience an updraft over the next 24 months or so. Savvy manufacturers would be wise to promote and postion themselves........
As the labour costs in China has risen sharply in the past year, I assumed the major manufacturer would increase their single figure price from $35 and $37 to around $39at the end of this year. However two days ago I was shocked when I found out that the single figure price has jumped 20% from $35 to $42. The price increase has just come so quick.
I fear the single price will be in Dec this year would be around $45 and early next year $48 if the costs especially labour continue to rise?
In another thread regarding this forum member number I posted how many toy soldiers collectors out there would be? I guess most of the collectors are passing their middle age. If this is true, how many new young collectors to come to replace the formers and let this industry to go on say in the next 10 years.
My assumption is the current young generation will be focusing on other hobbies rather than toy soldiers, if the toy soldiers (including planes, tanks...etc) prices continue to rise and the manufacturers productions are going to cut back. Like the major manufacturers have announced that they would cut back their productions, but not the variety of the ranges. Still this is not a healthy situation.
Since many of the toy soldiers manufactuers have their products made in China, I predict very soon other TS companies would increase their prices too (due to the increase in their costs, not just necessarily follow the major one).
To the worse, we may see every companies cut back their productions to say 300 to maximum 1000 units per each item and the prices will rocket rise to only limited collectors can afford to pay.
I do hope this will never happen, otherwise, most of us will be out of the interesting hobby.
Chan
I fear the single price will be in Dec this year would be around $45 and early next year $48 if the costs especially labour continue to rise?
In another thread regarding this forum member number I posted how many toy soldiers collectors out there would be? I guess most of the collectors are passing their middle age. If this is true, how many new young collectors to come to replace the formers and let this industry to go on say in the next 10 years.
My assumption is the current young generation will be focusing on other hobbies rather than toy soldiers, if the toy soldiers (including planes, tanks...etc) prices continue to rise and the manufacturers productions are going to cut back. Like the major manufacturers have announced that they would cut back their productions, but not the variety of the ranges. Still this is not a healthy situation.
Since many of the toy soldiers manufactuers have their products made in China, I predict very soon other TS companies would increase their prices too (due to the increase in their costs, not just necessarily follow the major one).
To the worse, we may see every companies cut back their productions to say 300 to maximum 1000 units per each item and the prices will rocket rise to only limited collectors can afford to pay.
I do hope this will never happen, otherwise, most of us will be out of the interesting hobby.
Chan
Currahee Chris
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At some point in time prices will have to stabilize. They simply cannot keep rocking. The question becomes how long and how deep will the damage be??
I pose a couple spinoff questions-
1.) Would it be possible for manufacturers to scale back on quality in an attempt to cut costs? Would you as a collector spend $25- $27 for a figure made to 2000-2001 standards? I would more than likely.
2.) Does anyone believe costs are going to come back down- marginally- say to the $30/figure or so range?
I pose a couple spinoff questions-
1.) Would it be possible for manufacturers to scale back on quality in an attempt to cut costs? Would you as a collector spend $25- $27 for a figure made to 2000-2001 standards? I would more than likely.
2.) Does anyone believe costs are going to come back down- marginally- say to the $30/figure or so range?
Louis Badolato
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I don't want to cause a tempest in a teacup, but did it occur to anyone other than myself that we collectors may be in large part responsible for price of toy soldiers trippling from 1995 to 2011?
We routinely spend a fortune (often 10 times retail) to obtain retired sets on the secondary market (sometimes a set which is only retired for a year or two goes for double or tripple retail). I certainly am guilty of this, and I am not even close to the biggest spender. I imagine that the manufacturers, who might otherwise have tried to hold prices close to level, see the crazy prices paid on a daily basis on ebay for retired K&C and Trophy, and think "the collectors can afford the increase".
I for one believe that the manufacturers will not consider cutting their profit margines to hold prices level as long as they see collectors willing to pay a premium for sets they produced only a couple of years ago.
We routinely spend a fortune (often 10 times retail) to obtain retired sets on the secondary market (sometimes a set which is only retired for a year or two goes for double or tripple retail). I certainly am guilty of this, and I am not even close to the biggest spender. I imagine that the manufacturers, who might otherwise have tried to hold prices close to level, see the crazy prices paid on a daily basis on ebay for retired K&C and Trophy, and think "the collectors can afford the increase".
I for one believe that the manufacturers will not consider cutting their profit margines to hold prices level as long as they see collectors willing to pay a premium for sets they produced only a couple of years ago.
thebritfarmer
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Refer to Chris' questions:
I think the manufacturers themselves are the right people to reply to your first question. But to my guess, they will not say so. Scaling back is a huge risk to their business unless they get enough postive feedback from the collectors to make such a change. For me, I would rather they produce the quality one.
The second question, I also put my guess on it, as I represent nobody but myself, as a Hong Kong Chinese living in Australia, I read the Chinese newspaper and know the labour costs in the Southern province where many foreign manufacturers are producing their products there have risen sharply in the recent months. Hiring labour are difficult now and people there are not willing to work with low pay due to the higher costs of living like other countries. I believe,as many toy soldier companies say other than labour costs, transport, materials, warehouse rent..etc are going up. I do not believe these costs will easily come down in the near future to enable the toy soldiers companies to ease their prices or even reduce their prices back to $20-30 for each figure. Besides, their profit margin is also a major factor.
This is my thought.
Chan
I think the manufacturers themselves are the right people to reply to your first question. But to my guess, they will not say so. Scaling back is a huge risk to their business unless they get enough postive feedback from the collectors to make such a change. For me, I would rather they produce the quality one.
The second question, I also put my guess on it, as I represent nobody but myself, as a Hong Kong Chinese living in Australia, I read the Chinese newspaper and know the labour costs in the Southern province where many foreign manufacturers are producing their products there have risen sharply in the recent months. Hiring labour are difficult now and people there are not willing to work with low pay due to the higher costs of living like other countries. I believe,as many toy soldier companies say other than labour costs, transport, materials, warehouse rent..etc are going up. I do not believe these costs will easily come down in the near future to enable the toy soldiers companies to ease their prices or even reduce their prices back to $20-30 for each figure. Besides, their profit margin is also a major factor.
This is my thought.
Chan
Louis Badolato
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And those two manufacturers should be applauded for doing so - you should name them in this thread. They are, sadly, the minority, at least among matt toy soldier manufacturers.
However, I was not issuing an across the board indictment of the manufacturers, I was merely asking if anyone else thought it is hard to complain about present production toy soldiers being "too expensive" while simultaneously and fairly regularly paying substantially more than present retail for figures only a couple of years old on ebay.
Currahee Chris
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Hey LB- Yes, I have said that a couple times over the years on these types of threads. In fact, given the ebay hysteria you see on this stuff, I certainly don't blame them for getting their cut of the pie.
Still though, I do believe that one cannot base or draw a complete conclusion on that scale either. I have recently seen some of the Egyptian sets- Cleopatra go for $300+ and then the Sphinx scenics go for $545. I bought both sets at retail- no way I would have paid anything near that for them now- just too doggone expensive.
There are extremes on each end of the bell curve and I believe the manufacturers are trying to adjust to get the right "fit".
Still though, I do believe that one cannot base or draw a complete conclusion on that scale either. I have recently seen some of the Egyptian sets- Cleopatra go for $300+ and then the Sphinx scenics go for $545. I bought both sets at retail- no way I would have paid anything near that for them now- just too doggone expensive.
There are extremes on each end of the bell curve and I believe the manufacturers are trying to adjust to get the right "fit".
Good point, Louis. There is no reason for manufacturers to hold retail prices down when prices spent on the secondary market are out of control. The manufacturers see that and would certainly want that money to be spent with them instead of on used figures. There is also the obvious point that, as customers, we keep spending even though the prices have been increasing rapidly and non-stop. Again, no reason for the makers to hold prices down as long as the money is flowing. You are right, We are all guilty. {sm2}{sm3}{sm4} -- Al
Currahee Chris
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I don't bud but I do agree with your logic. My friend Damian said to me once- the stuff always comes back around- he was right and he probably saved me a ton of money imparting that wisdom on me.
So much money in fact, I am hoping to go see him next summer in SA- Him and leaping Great White sharks!! {sm4}{sm3}{sm2}
Louis Badolato
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Chris,
Sorry for jumping your idea. I did not realize you had already made this point. I guess great (or demented, depending on your point of view) minds think alike.
You are wise for avoiding the secondary market insanity. I used to pay a fortune for things on the secondary market, especially when I was still trying to be a K&C completist. Once I was priced out of that delusional quest (and had obtained all but a handful of the figures K&C produced pre-2000), I reassessed my position on the secondary market, and now try to always pay retail or less.