Value retention/appreciation (2 Viewers)

[Vicknor]

Strange on for first post, but here we go.

First of all, I'm extremely lucky to live next door to K&C's shop here in HK and so get to stare through the window every-day and inspect everything first hand before I buy.

Anyway, I'm a collector for a number of reasons (my missus says I display autistic traits!!);

* I'm of a certain age whereby as a kid, you had a box, suitcase or someother oversized container that was filled to the brim with soldiers (plastic, lead, other) that would be ceremonially tipped out given a minute's free time.

* I've a strong historical interest in WW1-2 because of family involvement and collecting enhances that.

* Apparently it's a boy thing (wife's words not mine)

Anyway - the older I get, the more I start planning for retirement and although toy soldiers / collectables will never form a great % of my retirement plans, it would be madness not to count them in in case a need ever arises, especially when considering the sums spent.

So, after Googling all sorts and finding only out-dated somewhat irrelevant content regarding TS collections, thought I'd ask you lot.

What has you experience been with K&C with regards to value retention (at inflation), depreciation or even appreciation (above inflation).

Whatever the answers, my collection will continue to grow and I only collect K&C as I need to see/feel before I buy and JJD seem to not have a store in the city.

On a side note, and much to the chargin of her, I'll be making a light box this weekend after seeing some of the stunning pictures on here. Feel somewhat embarrassed but haven't looked forward to a weekend this much for ages.

Thatnks for any input and want to say I've really enjoyed reading people's thoughts in here

 

[Larry Allen]

Strange on for first post, but here we go.

First of all, I'm extremely lucky to live next door to K&C's shop here in HK and so get to stare through the window every-day and inspect everything first hand before I buy.

Anyway, I'm a collector for a number of reasons (my missus says I display autistic traits!!);

* I'm of a certain age whereby as a kid, you had a box, suitcase or someother oversized container that was filled to the brim with soldiers (plastic, lead, other) that would be ceremonially tipped out given a minute's free time.

* I've a strong historical interest in WW1-2 because of family involvement and collecting enhances that.

* Apparently it's a boy thing (wife's words not mine)

Anyway - the older I get, the more I start planning for retirement and although toy soldiers / collectables will never form a great % of my retirement plans, it would be madness not to count them in in case a need ever arises, especially when considering the sums spent.

So, after Googling all sorts and finding only out-dated somewhat irrelevant content regarding TS collections, thought I'd ask you lot.

What has you experience been with K&C with regards to value retention (at inflation), depreciation or even appreciation (above inflation).

Whatever the answers, my collection will continue to grow and I only collect K&C as I need to see/feel before I buy and JJD seem to not have a store in the city.

On a side note, and much to the chargin of her, I'll be making a light box this weekend after seeing some of the stunning pictures on here. Feel somewhat embarrassed but haven't looked forward to a weekend this much for ages.

Thatnks for any input and want to say I've really enjoyed reading people's thoughts in here

Welcome to the Forum.

I suspect you might get a few varying view points, but you already have the sense to understand that this SHOULD BE only viewed as a hobby and not an investment of any sort. There is no way to speculate on what the value of a figure or vehicle might be in the future. I have seen a figure sell originally at a small cost ... sky rocket in few months ... then plunged to a value less that original. There is no way of knowing what the tastes of the collecting community will be and how it will change.

There are search capabilities on this forum that will lead you to other threads that addresses this topic in a fairly good depth.

As a VERY rough idea, when a time arises that forces you to sell some or all of your collection I would say that most dealers might offer you between 30% and 40% of the value of your collection .... but that is not a steadfast rule. EBay will be an option but there are a lot of issues and hidden costs associated with that choice. See the eBay thread for a sample of problems that many of the members here have encountered on eBay.

Collect for fun and enjoyment, purchase only what your can really afford and plan wisely ..... but mostly have fun.

---Larry

 

[jazzeum]

The heyday for making money on reselling K & C for profit has come and gone, unless you have pre 2007 items and even there the market is falling. If you're getting into the hobby for that reason, try something else. On the newer stuff you may be able to get retail on re-sales but if you sell through eBay, you have to pay eBay and PayPal fees.

You should become interested in this hobby for fun and to learn about history and if you can make money, that's fine but it should be a secondary consideration.

 

[WesternOutlaw]

Anyway - the older I get, the more I start planning for retirement and although toy soldiers / collectables will never form a great % of my retirement plans, it would be madness not to count them in in case a need ever arises, especially when considering the sums spent.

What has you experience been with K&C with regards to value retention (at inflation), depreciation or even appreciation (above inflation).

Welcome Vicknor. It's always interesting to read the opinions of fellow collectors. I'm far from retirement, but I plan to spend some time on my hobby well into the future. I've always wanted to create a large tabletop diorama (not the small desk space that I have now). One day... Right now I enjoy photographing my modest scenes and sharing images here on Treefrog and on FlickR. I also enjoy (very much) seeing all the fantastic dioramas that fellow collectors post in this forum. I get ideas, inspiration, and also enjoy the comradery. The members here are top notch!

To answer your question; I believe that the 2nd hand market is pretty strong, esp. if you comb Ebay for a specific retired item. At the same time; I don't at all think of my collection as an investment. It's something I personally enjoy and do not purchase items for resale. When I start doing that, I will lose interest. K&C and toy soldiers aren't a commodity. Stick to stocks, bonds, and gold if you're looking to invest.

Neat to read your views and again, welcome!

 

[Vicknor]

The heyday for making money on reselling K & C for profit has come and gone, unless you have pre 2007 items and even there the market is falling. If you're getting into the hobby for that reason, try something else. On the newer stuff you may be able to get retail on re-sales but if you sell through eBay, you have to pay eBay and PayPal fees.

You should become interested in this hobby for fun and to learn about history and if you can make money, that's fine but it should be a secondary consideration.

I'm pretty sure it was obvious from the post that 'making money' wasn't the intention of either the post or the collection. However, it would be folly to suggest that any expenditure which reaches into the 10s of thousands of USD not be taken into consideration when looking to the future.

Business has taught me that no matter how hard I plan, something will always come to bite you on the arse.

Anyhow, seems a perfect day to expand into another collection

 

[theBaron]

....nyway - the older I get, the more I start planning for retirement and although toy soldiers / collectables will never form a great % of my retirement plans, it would be madness not to count them in in case a need ever arises, especially when considering the sums spent.

So, after Googling all sorts and finding only out-dated somewhat irrelevant content regarding TS collections, thought I'd ask you lot.

What has you experience been with K&C with regards to value retention (at inflation), depreciation or even appreciation (above inflation)....

The heyday for making money on reselling K & C for profit has come and gone, unless you have pre 2007 items and even there the market is falling. If you're getting into the hobby for that reason, try something else. On the newer stuff you may be able to get retail on re-sales but if you sell through eBay, you have to pay eBay and PayPal fees.

You should become interested in this hobby for fun and to learn about history and if you can make money, that's fine but it should be a secondary consideration.

I'm pretty sure it was obvious from the post that 'making money' wasn't the intention of either the post or the collection.

Welcome to the forum, Vick! I'm afraid that your reply to the other Brad (jazzeum) rings hollow, when we look at the comment in your original post (see above). Brad had the same thought that I did, and that I'm sure the other members had, who read your post but didn't reply. Particularly when you mention depreciation and appreciation, it suggests that you were/are asking or thinking about investment value. Your reply is a shade on the brusque side, too, but since you're new to the forum, and since we're generally a gentlemanly group, we overlook it as unintended.

Having said that, I second his reply to you. One may consider collecting an investment, but that shouldn't be the primary reason for collecting, because toy soldiers are a relatively poor investment vehicle. Sure, those classic Britains hollowcasts can collect large auction bids, but in another couple generations, that will value will come down, as the market for them dwindles. The best advice about our hobby that we can offer is to collect in the first place because you enjoy it, and everything else is secondary.

And having said that, please allow me again to say, "Welcome!" and I look forward to seeing your collection!

Prost!
Brad

 

[Baymax]

I think as has been said the current market with high primary prices and rising along with a massive drop in the prices for secondary market items means anyone who thinks they can make anything in this hobby unless they are a dealer or quasi dealer getting things for very low prices is in for a shock.

I also do not believe this hobby offers historical information they allow you to build in miniature real history but, they do not teach history for a variety of reasons.

If you buy to even think you will make profit or break even then your heading for a shock the Halcion days of collectors sending their kids to college with king and country are long gone

 

[Rutledge]

I didnt get the impression you were in the hobby "for the money". Rather, that you were curious as to whether/what you might recoup out of your initial costs if one day forced to sell some or all of the collection.

Its a reasonable question but like others here I dont think there is a known answer. Toy soldier prices are capricious. Many variables can affect their levels. The secondary market is especially unpredictable. Most basic of course is supply and demand. This varies by company and then actual item. Some pieces are more popular than others for whatever reason. An item can spike in price due to perceived scarcity, and then plummet back down as owners try to capitalize.

Macro economic factors in play include general economic conditions, inflation rates and currency values. No accounting or predicting these.

Most likely a toy soldier collection will retain some value if well maintained. Dumping a collection all at once will lower its value. Transaction costs (shipping, packaging, listing fees etc) may well erode any profit potential.

ERM/Rutledge

 

[Vicknor]

I didnt get the impression you were in the hobby "for the money". Rather, that you were curious as to whether/what you might recoup out of your initial costs if one day forced to sell some or all of the collection.

Its a reasonable question but like others here I dont think there is a known answer. Toy soldier prices are capricious. Many variables can affect their levels. The secondary market is especially unpredictable. Most basic of course is supply and demand. This varies by company and then actual item. Some pieces are more popular than others for whatever reason. An item can spike in price due to perceived scarcity, and then plummet back down as owners try to capitalize.

Macro economic factors in play include general economic conditions, inflation rates and currency values. No accounting or predicting these.

Most likely a toy soldier collection will retain some value if well maintained. Dumping a collection all at once will lower its value. Transaction costs (shipping, packaging, listing fees etc) may well erode any profit potential.

ERM/Rutledge

Thanks very much for being, seemingly, the first to grasp my meaning. The meaning being that after spending X amount of dollars I was simply looking for its value in the world. Think it's best not to post again.

A bit precious on here. Sorry for the intrusion.

 

[Larry Allen]

Thanks very much for being, seemingly, the first to grasp my meaning. The meaning being that after spending X amount of dollars I was simply looking for its value in the world. Think it's best not to post again.

A bit precious on here. Sorry for the intrusion.

Gee Vicknor ... ... I truly believe that none one here meant to offend you.

We offered you many years worth of experience and insight and you seem to have taken offense. I guess the TRUTH was not the answer that you were hoping to receive, but there it is. I hope that you reconsider and post some of your collection and join in on the conversations.

If not .... bye!

L

 

[tdubel]

Thanks very much for being, seemingly, the first to grasp my meaning. The meaning being that after spending X amount of dollars I was simply looking for its value in the world. Think it's best not to post again.

A bit precious on here. Sorry for the intrusion.

I didnt get the impression you were in the hobby "for the money". Rather, that you were curious as to whether/what you might recoup out of your initial costs if one day forced to sell some or all of the collection.

Its a reasonable question but like others here I dont think there is a known answer. Toy soldier prices are capricious. Many variables can affect their levels. The secondary market is especially unpredictable. Most basic of course is supply and demand. This varies by company and then actual item. Some pieces are more popular than others for whatever reason. An item can spike in price due to perceived scarcity, and then plummet back down as owners try to capitalize.

Macro economic factors in play include general economic conditions, inflation rates and currency values. No accounting or predicting these.

Most likely a toy soldier collection will retain some value if well maintained. Dumping a collection all at once will lower its value. Transaction costs (shipping, packaging, listing fees etc) may well erode any profit potential.

ERM/Rutledge

Vick

Rutledge's post hits the nail on the head. I have bought and sold through a lot of soldier "markets". I am a collector as a whole but I have made many a deals to supplement and enhance my own collection. After it is all said and done I bet it is a break even less fees situation give or take 15 percent. Now, that is my own take, but I look at it the same way, it is my hobby, I enjoy it, if my son doesn't want it, it will hold some value for him

I do feel like the hobby enhances my understanding of history because it motivates me to explore campaigns I do not know a lot about.

Td

 

[lav25vc]

Strange on for first post, but here we go.

First of all, I'm extremely lucky to live next door to K&C's shop here in HK and so get to stare through the window every-day and inspect everything first hand before I buy.

Anyway, I'm a collector for a number of reasons (my missus says I display autistic traits!!);

* I'm of a certain age whereby as a kid, you had a box, suitcase or someother oversized container that was filled to the brim with soldiers (plastic, lead, other) that would be ceremonially tipped out given a minute's free time.

* I've a strong historical interest in WW1-2 because of family involvement and collecting enhances that.

* Apparently it's a boy thing (wife's words not mine)

Anyway - the older I get, the more I start planning for retirement and although toy soldiers / collectables will never form a great % of my retirement plans, it would be madness not to count them in in case a need ever arises, especially when considering the sums spent.

So, after Googling all sorts and finding only out-dated somewhat irrelevant content regarding TS collections, thought I'd ask you lot.

What has you experience been with K&C with regards to value retention (at inflation), depreciation or even appreciation (above inflation).

Whatever the answers, my collection will continue to grow and I only collect K&C as I need to see/feel before I buy and JJD seem to not have a store in the city.

On a side note, and much to the chargin of her, I'll be making a light box this weekend after seeing some of the stunning pictures on here. Feel somewhat embarrassed but haven't looked forward to a weekend this much for ages.

Thatnks for any input and want to say I've really enjoyed reading people's thoughts in here

Welcome to the forum. I will not comment about the ups and downs of the market as I think it changes every year of so… That said, the one thing you need to do to maintain the value of your collection is to ensure you keep the boxes, original packing and any associated paperwork with each item. This is probably obvious but I thought I'd mention it. Happy collecting.

 

[JPB]

Hi,

only but what you love.

I'm pretty sure, that if you want to sell, you'll only get 1/4 of the buying price.

Cheers

JPB

 

[The Military Workshop]

Welcome to the forum, Vick! I'm afraid that your reply to the other Brad (jazzeum) rings hollow, when we look at the comment in your original post (see above). Brad had the same thought that I did, and that I'm sure the other members had, who read your post but didn't reply. Particularly when you mention depreciation and appreciation, it suggests that you were/are asking or thinking about investment value. Your reply is a shade on the brusque side, too, but since you're new to the forum, and since we're generally a gentlemanly group, we overlook it as unintended.

Having said that, I second his reply to you. One may consider collecting an investment, but that shouldn't be the primary reason for collecting, because toy soldiers are a relatively poor investment vehicle. Sure, those classic Britains hollowcasts can collect large auction bids, but in another couple generations, that will value will come down, as the market for them dwindles. The best advice about our hobby that we can offer is to collect in the first place because you enjoy it, and everything else is secondary.

And having said that, please allow me again to say, "Welcome!" and I look forward to seeing your collection!

Prost!
Brad

Brad,
I would just like to say any thoughts you think others may have had about the first post do not apply to me. I thought his first post was put reasonably and had no issue with his response to Jazz. He seems to have a decent sized collection that may be of some value (even without appreciation or depreciation). The only issue I noted in this thread was your suggestion that his posts ring hollow and his reply brusque. It is like you are questioning the motives of his post.

I recently helped a collector in the sale of a decent sized collection of K&C that he started in about 2003. He bought the items because he liked them, not for investment. Unfortunately due to a serious health issue he decided to sell his collection in order to prevent hassles for his wife selling something she knew nothing about. He also rightly thought he would get more of a return on his money if he was involved in its disposal. I guess he is lucky he did not come on here and make a similar post asking about value.

Brett

 

[jazzeum]

Brett,

Although your post was not addressed to me, I have some observations.

With respect to your first paragraph, we attempted to answer Vicknor's questions about value and the motives one should have in choosing this as a hobby. Obviously, motivations differ. Although I thought his response was brusque, it didn't personally offend me as I see such responses from time to time on this Forum.

With respect to your second paragraph, people are always eager to help. If your customer had come on and asked a question about disposing of his collection, we would have suggested various alternatives, e.g. going to a dealer such as yourself or selling it himself (as he would have realized a better return that way). Considering that he had a collection from 2003 on and based on my following the prices of K & C over the years (not to mention that in the past year I have been disposing of a number of pieces in order to downsize part of my collection), he should be able to realize a decent return from his purchases (or initial investment, if you will).

If Vicknor has a collection composed of recent purchases, he should expect his return to be a lot less than your collector. I agree that it would be folly not to take into account the value of his purchases should he need to dispose of his collection in the event of a short term cash crisis. Somebody once mentioned to me that "you don't want to buy worthless junk, do you."

As I mentioned above, his return will depend on the manner in which he sells his collection. If he is in need of quick funds, obviously selling it in one fell swoop will be easier, but not as financially rewarding.

Brad

 

[Oberstinhaber]

Dear Colleagues.

I'm not going to name call individuals, but I will collectively. None of you are being totally honest. What we are discussing here is the onset of an illness, an addiction.

I became addicted just over 60 years ago. A number of points to make here. Yes, I have had several remissions (educating myself, buying a home, educating children etc) But most importantly, my drug of choice is not King and Country, I buy from several pushers. Many of whom are now dead or retired.

So, my first advice to our new friend in HK (well, he might not be now after his chilly reception) is to find another pusher. Mr Jenkins is but a telephone call away. It is quite common, in the early stages of an addiction to have this urge to "fondle" the product, that passes as you become more mature.

Here is how I justify my habit:

If I was a big drinker, and I was a heavy smoker (heart attack 6 years ago, limited to "2 standard drinks" a day, gave up smoking at age 19) I would be spending "x' dollars per week on booze and fags.

I simply spend "x dollars" per week on Toy Soldiers.

Now if I spent "x dollars" per week on booze and smokes, I would have absolutely nothing to show for it (except heart and lung conditions, and I have never heard of anyone collecting ash and butts [have to admit that there are people who collect beer cans and wine labels.....no accounting for taste, I guess]))

Value: several years ago, my old mate Kevvy (the proprietor of the "Monday Night Sweat Shop" for over 40 years) and I came to the conclusion that if our estate could get $10.00 per foot figure and $20.00 per mounted figure, they would have nothing to complain about. We (the collectors), having had the "pleasure" value from our figures, which must exceed their cost, in fact, we would be miles in front given the "booze and fags" valuation method.

Yes, it does work, I have seen two good sized collections sold this way, to the widow's entire satisfaction. In total I have about ***** figures (actual numbers not disclosed, in case agents of the "Wives Club" read this. My spouse is happy with the $10.00 and $20.00 values, she just doesn't know how many $10.00 and $20.00 she might receive some day)

Toy Soldiers are NOT works of Art, however much certain people (all with an ulterior motive) would have us believe. Therefore, as "goods" (legal definition) a reasonable starting price for a "used" item is 75% of purchase price. The "value" of any item on an open market is what some Punter is prepared to pay, "on the day". That varies on a minute by minute basis.

No argument is perfect. MIne is based on the "moderate booze and no fags" foundation. If that doesn't represent you, sorry, find your own argument.

Sure, somebody gets a bargain. I won't he here to cry over that. There is nothing nicer to sit and look at one's collection and reflect: "What a great figure, Gordon, Fred, Jim, Col, Ernie, Roy, Bob,Steve, Ray, Brett,Ken,...painted that" (or it came from their collection)

Collect for enjoyment. Like heroin, KnC has nasty side effects. Spread yourself around, try some ice, or smack etc etc (all have different side effects, some you might particularly enjoy)

Report back to the "Clinic" in 12 months!

Oberstinhaber.

 

[BLReed]

The heyday for making money on reselling K & C for profit has come and gone, unless you have pre 2007 items and even there the market is falling. If you're getting into the hobby for that reason, try something else. On the newer stuff you may be able to get retail on re-sales but if you sell through eBay, you have to pay eBay and PayPal fees.

Very true, and if you are trying to sell a very large collection in toto only Dealers will be interested. I doubt they'll offer much more than 25%.

If you try to sell a large collection individually, it is going to take years and a lot of work. Currently there are approximately 7,500 KC items on eBay. That is who you are competing with. Watch the actual sales over a period of time. You'll find "worth" and "sold" are far apart in dollars.


We have a couple of people on this Forum who inherited a collection. They are still trying to dispose of it after three years. Couln't guess the hours they have put into it. Probably would have been better off getting a part-time job as a Greeter at WalMart.

 

[The Military Workshop]

The "booze and fags" valuation method". I like it{sm4}

With a pack of 20, in packs with horrible images, going to be A$40 (US$29) in 2020 this could be a unique marketing opportunity. Quit smoking and buy 4 TS figures a week and you will be the healthier for it. Live longer and see your Army of toy soldiers grow by the week.

Jazz, agree with what you have said. In my collection sale example he was well aware he could make more if he sold direct but at same time knew it would be a lot of work.

 

[jazzeum]

Brett,

Agreed. It's a lot of work. When the time comes that I must dispose of my collection, I will probably sell it all to one person, even though I would only receive 50% on the dollar. It's just easier.

Brad

 

[theBaron]

...The only issue I noted in this thread was your suggestion that his posts ring hollow and his reply brusque. It is like you are questioning the motives of his post...

Hi, Brett,

I should offer a clarification. I'm not questioning his motives. What I took a little bit of exception to was the comment in Vick's reply,

"I'm pretty sure it was obvious from the post that 'making money' wasn't the intention of either the post or the collection."​

I inferred a little bit of a tone of condescension or sarcasm in "I'm sure it was obvious". And given that it was in a thread posted by a new member, as a response to a reply given by a long-time member who simply offered to help with his request, I thought it was a little out of line. If I were the original poster, I would have replied differently, with something like, "Oh, I'm sorry, I should clarify," etc. I'm sure there was no hostile intent in the comment itself, but I just wanted to point out that it's not really the tone we strive for in our discussions here. I apologize if I've caused any misunderstanding.

Prost!
Brad