Very Narrow East Front Poll (2 Viewers)

[Blowtorch]

This is a really narrow question, & I have a paragraph of explanations why I am posing it, but I will keep it simple for now.

Of the two choices, which is a more interesting theme to you: SS Panzerkorps at Kursk? Or SS Panzerkorps at Kharkov (early '43)?

It doesn't matter if one just edges out another to you, or it's an absolute landslide in your mind.

Feel free to elaborate, or not.

 

[nasirkasmani]

wow, how do you choose?
both are epics in their own right, but i'll guess i go with kharkov, i've always been a winter man.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Its got to be Kursk for me . . . the largest Tank Battle and the Germans loss leads to the complete collapse of the Eastern Front. It doesn't get any more important than that.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Kharkov - cool winter uniforms and the last major german offensive victory on the eastern front. It nearly brought the Russians to the bargaining table. I think it also may have been the first time all three core SS Panzer divisions fought side-by-side (I don't think they did in Poland or France?).

 

[arnhem44mad]

I Like Buttons

 

[Sahara]

Its got to be Kursk for me . . . the largest Tank Battle and the Germans loss leads to the complete collapse of the Eastern Front. It doesn't get any more important than that.

I agree Kursk was such a key victory for the Russians. If Hitler would have just let his generals control the battlefield then the Germans would have won this engagement. Thank goodness Hitler was a nut because there were alot of battles that would have gone the other way if the German generals had their way.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Matters not a wit to me but I would favor whichever gave FL more revenue for Napoleonics. It would be interesting to see your paragraph of explanations however.

 

[fmethorst]

Hmm..really tough choice...

...but my vote went to II.SS-Panzerkorps during "Unternehmen Zitadelle".

 

[nasirkasmani]

be careful what you vote for frank, i'll probably faint if FL made all that armour!

 

[lancer]

Gotta be the SS at Kursk. Who can resist the point-blank shoot-out that was Prokarovka? It's got it all for a WW2 student in terms of importance and just plain ferocity. And incidently, the Tigers were NOT burning. -- lancer

 

[fmethorst]

And incidently, the Tigers were NOT burning. -- lancer

Of course they were, hundreds of them. The Russians said so.

I thought it would be fun to look at the Tiger company of "Das Reich" to get an idea.

Here is the situation report for "Das Reich" on July 1 1943. I have hilighted the column indicating this division's current Tiger situation. The first row is Authorized (numbers). In this case the company is authorized to have 14 Tigers. The second row is Operational (as a percentage). 85% (12) of the Tigers are operational. The third row is Short Term Maintenance (up to 3 weeks)(as a percentage of authorized). Here we have 15% of the authorized strength of 14 or 2.

8./SS-Panzer-Regiment 2 "Das Reich" lost a total of 1 Tiger during the month of July 1943. The single total loss occured on July 11 1943 killing the acting company commander Hauptsturmfuhrer Lorenz.

Now lets look at the situation report on August 1 1943. The operational number is 21% or 3 Tigers. The short term maintenance row indicates 136%. How is that possible? On July 28 1943 "LSSAH" handed over 9 of it's Tigers to "Das Reich" as it left for Italy (8 went to "Totenkopf" as well). 136% of the authorized strength of 14 is 19 Tigers. 19 + 3 operational gives a total Tiger strength of 22. So if we look at the total Tigers on "Das Reich's" inventory from July 1 1943 to August 1 1943 it looks like this.

July 1 = 14
July 11 = 13 (-1 knocked out)
July 28 = 22 (+9 from "LSSAH")

 

[ExRanger]

Greatest Armour battle of WW2. How can one past this up? All those great German vehicles in one place.

 

[IXEC]

I agree Kursk was such a key victory for the Russians. If Hitler would have just let his generals control the battlefield then the Germans would have won this engagement. Thank goodness Hitler was a nut because there were alot of battles that would have gone the other way if the German generals had their way.

May I suggest one often overlooked, under appreciated, unbiased, classic book on the matter of Hitler's mental capacities as a war fighting CIC and those of his generals....I think many would be shocked with it's content

Hitler's War, by David Erving.

 

[nasirkasmani]

May I suggest one often overlooked, under appreciated, unbiased, classic book on the matter of Hitler's mental capacities as a war fighting CIC and those of his generals....I think many would be shocked with it's content

Hitler's War, by David Erving.

i agree paul.

this book is a superb look onto the decisions made as how a mighty military entity took the wrong turns, and slowly sinked into utter defeat.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

It wasn't Hitler alone who brought the Germans to defeat at Kursk. Several of his generals, including Manstein to his eternal discredit, agreed with the basic idea of Operation Zitadelle. I think what really threw everything off were the delays (on Hitler's insistence) to get the new prototype armor like the panther. It gave the time for the Russians to prepare in depth. The "cool" German armor that everyone wants to see in a Kursk line is ironically what ended up dooming them. The Germans should have called it off when they realized the gauntlet that awaited them but Hitler's force of personality and groupthink among the general staff carried the day. In my opinion it was probably the greatest German mistake of the war. All of Speer's work rebuilding the juggernaut went down the toilet in a week. Fans of the German war machine should be ashamed to see the debacle of Kursk given priority over Mastein's masterful counter-stroke at Kharkov.

 

[jazzeum]

Due to his anti semitic beliefs and denial that that the holocaust took place, I wouldn't consider anything that David Irving as reliable. Although he's considered an accomplished researcher, because of his beliefs, his work is not viewed very favorably.

 

[nasirkasmani]

Due to his anti semitic beliefs and denial that that the holocaust took place, I wouldn't consider anything that David Irving as reliable. Although he's considered an accomplished researcher, because of his beliefs, his work is not viewed very favorably.

not my favourite author, but if i remember correctly, i don't recall him denying the Nazi brutal and inhuman killing of jews.

his controversy is that he denied the figure was as high as 6 million.

for the record, i'm just stating my opinion and am not anti semitic.

 

[IXEC]

Due to his anti semitic beliefs and denial that that the holocaust took place, I wouldn't consider anything that David Irving as reliable. Although he's considered an accomplished researcher, because of his beliefs, his work is not viewed very favorably.

It may be true today, that his personal beliefs have undeniable tainted his reputation. But when Hitler's War was first written, David Erving couldn't be called anti-semetic. He does not deny the holocaust anywhere in this work and in fact writes about it extensively.

This book caused quite a stir when it was first published and unfairly earned David Erving a permanent ban from the German Archives, which was then and is now, nothing short of Government sponsored censorship. He backs up all his facts with footnotes that are irreputable and as such, makes it one of the most comprehensive, unbiased and complete volumes ever written on World War II.

Don't judge a book by it's cover....

 

[Rob]

Guys,the book may be very entertaining,i can't comment because i've not read it.But we are all adults here,if Irving said the Sky was Blue i'd have to check

No one is accusing anyone on here of being anti semitic or denying the Holocaust.But surely with authors of repute like Beevor you have more chance of a truly balanced view of History?.

Rob

 

[lancer]

David Irving's reputation has definitely suffered from his political views, but as mentioned several times, "Hitler's War" does not represent his current views. It is a good work as were several other early works including his book on the bombing of Dresden. I have met Irving on two different occasions since his views have become notorious, and I must say, anything he writes now I will avoid. JMO. -- lancer