VN022-VN025 US M48A3 Patton Tank and US 25th Infantry Figures! (1 Viewer)

[uksubs]

BTW, my tank has USMC markings and the figures around it are FL and Figarti.

Carlos

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Nice setup

 

[katana]

The Figarti Vietnam figures are 1/32 scale; they are very compatable with the FL figures in the diorama. The weathering on the Minichamps M48 is very well done.

 

[FirstLegion]

The Figarti Vietnam figures are 1/32 scale; they are very compatable with the FL figures in the diorama. The weathering on the Minichamps M48 is very well done.

Then they are probably 1/30th.

What I find incredibly entertaining (or incredulous) about your posts is that you spend so much time measuring things and providing exact scale on all things and then think it's ok to use a 1/35th vehicle with 1/30th figures or think that 1/32 figures go with 1/30th figures. Why do you even bother measuring if you have such a massive tolerance?

:smile2:

 

[sammy719]

Then they are probably 1/30th.

What I find incredibly entertaining (or incredulous) about your posts is that you spend so much time measuring things and providing exact scale on all things and then think it's ok to use a 1/35th vehicle with 1/30th figures or think that 1/32 figures go with 1/30th figures. Why do you even bother measuring if you have such a massive tolerance?

:smile2:

I asked Kat pretty much the same thing a few months ago but it felt like the old line of "who's on First" kinda thing was happening...Sammy

 

[katana]

In a diorama different scales can work effectivly together utilizing photographic perspective. Granted the same scale of figures and vehicles would be best; but that is not always possible.
You have to work with what is available at the time.

Given what Carlos had to work with he has done an exceptional job in composing his diorama IMO.

The most realistic dioramas are done with 1/35 scale models. The level of detail in figures and vehicles is far superior to polystone and pewter. The range of detailing parts and figure poses give a vast range for creativity in composition of scenes and dioramas; all in the same scale!

Professionally built 1/35 scale models still exceed the best efforts of FL and Figarti in detail and accuracy at much less cost. Verlindin sets very high standards for 1/35 scale model vehicle and figure quality and realism. Please reference the Verlinden Publications, On Target No. 1 Modeling Special: The German Tiger Tanks. The dioramas shown are amazing in detail and artistry and are an inspiration to any aspiring diorama builder.

 

[FirstLegion]

In a diorama different scales can work effectivly together utilizing photographic perspective. Granted the same scale of figures and vehicles would be best; but that is not always possible.
You have to work with what is available at the time.

Sure, you can use photography and perspective to create a photograph giving the illusion of scale. So this is great if the way one enjoys their collection is by looking at their computer screen.

Given what Carlos had to work with he has done an exceptional job in composing his diorama IMO.

I certainly agree!

The most realistic dioramas are done with 1/35 scale models. The level of detail in figures and vehicles is far superior to polystone and pewter. The range of detailing parts and figure poses give a vast range for creativity in composition of scenes and dioramas; all in the same scale!

I certainly disagree with this. In fact, you are very much incorrect. The level of details on plastic 1/35th figures pales in comparison to what you can do with larger figures in metal or resin. Plastic 1/35th figures are very much limited by the inability of injection molds to process undercuts making them more simplistic. 1/35th in resin kits avoids this because you have undercuts, but 1/35th figures won't be as detailed as larger figures. Basically, other than the size, there isn't really any difference between a 1/35th resin kit and a 60mm resin or metal figure. If you are merely speaking about the fact that their is more commercially available products to actually create a 1/35th scene than there is for the larger scale, then that's probably true, however the most realistic dioramas are created by the best modelers regardless of scale and what they do is often totally scratch built. So there is no correlation whatsoever between scale and quality of diorama. To back this point up further, dioramas using only First Legion models won awards at the World Expo in 2014, the top modeling show in the entire world. Sure, they were custom painted and built into the scenes, but the models themselves and the dioramas they were part of were considered amongst the best in the world at the worlds top modeling show (Three Musketeers and WWI German Trench scene).

Professionally built 1/35 scale models still exceed the best efforts of FL and Figarti in detail and accuracy at much less cost.

Sorry, I disagree again. I won't speak for Figarti, but FL 1/30th tanks ARE professionally built kits and our tanks are MORE detailed than 1/35th plastic tanks, not less detailed. Again, we don't suffer the limitations of injection molding. Sure, there are of course some modelers that easily exceed our efforts simply because they are the world's top modelers. But our models are better than the overwhelming majority of professionally built kits and are themselves professionally built kits and if you put our products in the hands of a top modeler you will get the same result that modeler could do in 1/35th or any other scale. This is a strength of our products and something that makes FL different than other "toy soldier" companies. We get constant requests from top modelers to provide our figures and vehicles as unpainted kits for just this purpose, we just turn them down.

The dioramas shown are amazing in detail and artistry and are an inspiration to any aspiring diorama builder.

Of course they are. However, the same people who created that could get the same result using larger figures if they wanted to. Our goal as a company has always been to shrink the gap between pre-painted figures and professionally built dioramas allowing our customers to create nice looking dioramas doing minimal work and not having to paint any figures or vehicles. And I think we've more than achieved this and you can see it in some of the photographs that FL collectors post here on the forum.

 

[katana]

The range of figure size catagorized as 60mm is between 58mm and 68mm by actual measure ments between top of base to top of head.The differences in size is not acknowledged by the manufacturers; thus it is left to the collector to measure the products and determine what will realisticly be size compatable. Some work together well like WB and FL, some do not such as K&C and FL, yet all are advertised as 60mm.

The same disparity occurs with vehicles catagorized as 1/30 scale. The measured scale can range from 1/32 to 1/26 by actual measurment, depending upon who the manufacturer is and when it was made. Hopefully someday the Toy Soldier manufacturers will abide by what they advertise their products to be; until that day a collector must measure, and be very selective to achieve some degree of realism.

Human size varies considerably; 64 inches to 78 inches typicaly, with a world average of 69 inches for males. Proportion also varies from short and heavy to tall and thin. The Figarti and First Legion Vietnam US Infantry figures are both very well done and compatable in size and proportion despite the absolute scales. The Figarti figures were advertised as 1/32 not 1/30 scale and Figarti was generally honest in their advertising. I would like to see a photo of the Figarti and First Legion figures side by side as they look compatable in Carlos diorama.

 

[FirstLegion]

The range of figure size catagorized as 60mm is between 58mm and 68mm by actual measure ments between top of base to top of head.The differences in size is not acknowledged by the manufacturers; thus it is left to the collector to measure the products and determine what will realisticly be size compatable. Some work together well like WB and FL, some do not such as K&C and FL, yet all are advertised as 60mm.

We can only control the size, scale, and advertising of our own figures and I think we've been pretty accurate so far. So why would we acknowledge differences in scale with figures by other companies? It's irrelevant to us.

The same disparity occurs with vehicles catagorized as 1/30 scale. The measured scale can range from 1/32 to 1/26 by actual measurment, depending upon who the manufacturer is and when it was made. Hopefully someday the Toy Soldier manufacturers will abide by what they advertise their products to be; until that day a collector must measure, and be very selective to achieve some degree of realism.

We can only control the size, scale, and advertising of our own vehicles and I think we've been pretty accurate so far. So why would we acknowledge differences in scale with vehicles by other companies? It's irrelevant to us.

Human size varies considerably; 64 inches to 78 inches typicaly, with a world average of 69 inches for males. Proportion also varies from short and heavy to tall and thin. The Figarti and First Legion Vietnam US Infantry figures are both very well done and compatable in size and proportion despite the absolute scales. The Figarti figures were advertised as 1/32 not 1/30 scale and Figarti was generally honest in their advertising. I would like to see a photo of the Figarti and First Legion figures side by side as they look compatable in Carlos diorama.

So, you're suggesting that we're not generally honest in our advertising? :smile2:

Anyway, the point is we have no control over other companies and can only do what we do as best we can and hope collectors enjoy it. So the cross MFR scale debates are a waste of time from our perspective. Our products are meant to be compatible with our products and scaled to what we advertise, we have never strived to be compatible with products by other makers and from a stylistic perspective, we have actually strived to be incompatible. If collectors want to use our figures and vehicles in displays with figures from other companies, that's great. If they don't (or can't due to scale differences), well that's great too.

 

[Alex]

I agree with Matt on this. I mean, a 90mm figure will have much more details than a 75 or a 54 or a 32 mm figure. Sure you can do a boring 90mm figure with low sculpted details but more often than not, the 90 (or 120mm) figures are usually the most impressive figures, when painted to competition standards.

The other thing about 1/35th figure kits painted being cheaper than FL kits is not true.
I mean, ask any good modeller how much he would charge you. He will have to buy, build then paint this last FL tank and then add some profit (adding some figures as well). Well, you are talking about hundreds of dollars (closer than 400-500$ If not more than that).

If modellers in the US were so cheap, I am sure that Matt would have moved his production to the US !

Alex

Sure, you can use photography and perspective to create a photograph giving the illusion of scale. So this is great if the way one enjoys their collection is by looking at their computer screen.



I certainly agree!



I certainly disagree with this. In fact, you are very much incorrect. The level of details on plastic 1/35th figures pales in comparison to what you can do with larger figures in metal or resin. Plastic 1/35th figures are very much limited by the inability of injection molds to process undercuts making them more simplistic. 1/35th in resin kits avoids this because you have undercuts, but 1/35th figures won't be as detailed as larger figures. Basically, other than the size, there isn't really any difference between a 1/35th resin kit and a 60mm resin or metal figure. If you are merely speaking about the fact that their is more commercially available products to actually create a 1/35th scene than there is for the larger scale, then that's probably true, however the most realistic dioramas are created by the best modelers regardless of scale and what they do is often totally scratch built. So there is no correlation whatsoever between scale and quality of diorama. To back this point up further, dioramas using only First Legion models won awards at the World Expo in 2014, the top modeling show in the entire world. Sure, they were custom painted and built into the scenes, but the models themselves and the dioramas they were part of were considered amongst the best in the world at the worlds top modeling show (Three Musketeers and WWI German Trench scene).



Sorry, I disagree again. I won't speak for Figarti, but FL 1/30th tanks ARE professionally built kits and our tanks are MORE detailed than 1/35th plastic tanks, not less detailed. Again, we don't suffer the limitations of injection molding. Sure, there are of course some modelers that easily exceed our efforts simply because they are the world's top modelers. But our models are better than the overwhelming majority of professionally built kits and are themselves professionally built kits and if you put our products in the hands of a top modeler you will get the same result that modeler could do in 1/35th or any other scale. This is a strength of our products and something that makes FL different than other "toy soldier" companies. We get constant requests from top modelers to provide our figures and vehicles as unpainted kits for just this purpose, we just turn them down.



Of course they are. However, the same people who created that could get the same result using larger figures if they wanted to. Our goal as a company has always been to shrink the gap between pre-painted figures and professionally built dioramas allowing our customers to create nice looking dioramas doing minimal work and not having to paint any figures or vehicles. And I think we've more than achieved this and you can see it in some of the photographs that FL collectors post here on the forum.

 

[wayne556517]

I certainly disagree with this. In fact, you are very much incorrect. The level of details on plastic 1/35th figures pales in comparison to what you can do with larger figures in metal or resin. Plastic 1/35th figures are very much limited by the inability of injection molds to process undercuts making them more simplistic. 1/35th in resin kits avoids this because you have undercuts, but 1/35th figures won't be as detailed as larger figures. Basically, other than the size, there isn't really any difference between a 1/35th resin kit and a 60mm resin or metal figure. If you are merely speaking about the fact that their is more commercially available products to actually create a 1/35th scene than there is for the larger scale, then that's probably true, however the most realistic dioramas are created by the best modelers regardless of scale and what they do is often totally scratch built. So there is no correlation whatsoever between scale and quality of diorama. To back this point up further, dioramas using only First Legion models won awards at the World Expo in 2014, the top modeling show in the entire world. Sure, they were custom painted and built into the scenes, but the models themselves and the dioramas they were part of were considered amongst the best in the world at the worlds top modeling show (Three Musketeers and WWI German Trench scene).



Do you have the pics Matt they would be good to see especially the musketeer 1 ??

 

[katana]

State of the art injection molding can achieve under cuts utilizing slides.

3D printers are the next level in molding; no tooling required in the traditional sense and scale can be anything you choose, within the capacity of your printer. Materials can be plastics, resins, ceramics or metals. Within the next few years collectors will be able to 3D print their own Toy Soldier, figures and vehicles, colors can be incorporated in the final layers. A basic 3D printer can be purchased at Staples today! A Toy Soldier purchase will be an AP downloaded to you 3D printer.

 

[Gebhard]

Do you have the pics Matt they would be good to see especially the musketeer 1 ??

Hi Wayne,

Here are a few Photo's of First Legions figures on display at the 2014 World Model Expo which was held in Stresa Italy that year. One shows the WWI entry with the Gold Award it won and a close up of the Musketeers for ya. Cheers Gebhard

 

[FirstLegion]

The Three Musketeers won Silver in the Master Open competition. Originally, we had planned it as a kit only, but then decided instead to release it as a painted set. It's hard to tell from the photos, but our production sets of these figures are really incredible quality but the original is just a bit better. :smile2:

 

[wayne556517]

Thank's Geb the musketeers 1 is awesome.

 

[FirstLegion]

Here is the production version of the same......

 

[uksubs]

State of the art injection molding can achieve under cuts utilizing slides.

3D printers are the next level in molding; no tooling required in the traditional sense and scale can be anything you choose, within the capacity of your printer. Materials can be plastics, resins, ceramics or metals. Within the next few years collectors will be able to 3D print their own Toy Soldier, figures and vehicles, colors can be incorporated in the final layers. A basic 3D printer can be purchased at Staples today! A Toy Soldier purchase will be an AP downloaded to you 3D printer.

I think your missing the whole point people who collect toy soldiers in general are not interested or have the time to paint figure or afv

 

[The Military Workshop]

State of the art injection molding can achieve under cuts utilizing slides.

3D printers are the next level in molding; no tooling required in the traditional sense and scale can be anything you choose, within the capacity of your printer. Materials can be plastics, resins, ceramics or metals. Within the next few years collectors will be able to 3D print their own Toy Soldier, figures and vehicles, colors can be incorporated in the final layers. A basic 3D printer can be purchased at Staples today! A Toy Soldier purchase will be an AP downloaded to you 3D printer.

Not sure what this has got to do with a thread about Vietnam releases. However I am sure Matt, Andy, Ken, Tom and Brian, dealers and collectors would appreciate knowing what "within a few years" means. Feel free to start another thread.

 

[katana]

The post was in response to prior comments about the details that can be achieved with various molding materials and techniques i.e. resin versus injection molded polystyrene. The principal difference between polystyrene and polyurathane resins is one is thermal curing and one is chemical. The molds also differ in that injection molds are Steel or Chrome plated Aluminum versus soft tooling. Soft tools are only good for about 100 pieces. Steel tools are good for 100,000 pieces and can be repolished, plated and reused.

3D printing uses a form of computer tomography to deposit layers of material to build an object. The processs has evolved to utilize a variety of materials; plastics, ceramics, metals etc. CNC has revolutionized machine parts manufacture. 3D printing is revolutionizing molding manufacturing.
3D inkjet printing can paint objects to the same level of color and resolution as the printed page. The processes are highly automated and the per piece cost is low and the quality is high.

Traditionl manufacturing methods for Toy Soldiers employed wood, Cast Iron, ZAMAK and Tin plated Steel; these materials and techniques were replaced by Thermoplastics in the 1950's. Current materals and techniques are in the process of being replaced by 3D printing technology.
The end result will be high quality low cost Toy Soldiers in some cases produced by the collector
using desk top work stations.

Not sure what this has got to do with a thread about Vietnam releases. However I am sure Matt, Andy, Ken, Tom and Brian, dealers and collectors would appreciate knowing what "within a few years" means. Feel free to start another thread.

 

[1970LT1]

It's interesting to see how this thread has evolved. We started with some expressing surprise, if not shock, at the price of this tank, followed by others offering that there are equally nice alternatives. We then transitioned into a debate (with the manufacturer) about the detail that can be achieved with various scales and working mediums, and whether there were nice alternatives to a $450 1:30 M48. There is no question that this tank sets a new price point for the K&C/Figarti/John Jenkins/Collectors Showcase world (forgive me if I missed a manufacturer). I hope this is not a trend for the future, because I for one will be priced out of the market. First Legion tanks are more expensive from what I've observed, and I've been personally unwilling to pay $300 for a FL PzKpfw IV when I can get a Figarti or K&C PzKpfw IV in the low 200's. As the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure FL wouldn't have priced their masterpiece at $450 if they didn't feel there was a market, although that market must be wealthy indeed. It's just unfortunate for all those M48 fans out there that the first and currently only M48 offering in this market is $450.

If you're willing to "settle" for 1:35, there are plenty of really nice pro-built models available on Ebay in the $200-300 range. Check out Dreamworks in particular. They may not have a heft of this offering, but they sure have a lot of detail if the builder is a true professional model builder. Oh, and they can be custom painted to order as well!

My advice to FL: instead of debating the merits of your product and scale with potential customers, let your products speak for themselves, which I'm sure they will

Will I buy this? Not sure; I'm trying to see if I can slip the cost past my wife, Lol.

LT1

 

[uksubs]

My advice to FL: instead of debating the merits of your product and scale with potential customers, let your products speak for themselves, which I'm sure they will


LT1

I think it a good thing Matt taking part in the forum and found his response on his product very interesting on how there made .