War Park New Release in December -- The Old Guard Grenadiers (1 Viewer)

[Sgtminiman]

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. Any company can release old guard figures marching or otherwise. What you can't do is release them EXACTLY like another company who holds the intellectual property rights to those specific designs. The precedent that is concerning is that if we don't defend our intellectual property, which we have invested in heavily in terms of time and money, is that suddenly it will just be ok for another company to copy whatever they want from whoever they want. I'm sorry, but not only is it unethical, it's illegal. So I find regrettable your laissez-faire attitude to our property essentially being stolen. We aren't talking about a few similarities here, we're talking about figures that were resculpted exactly the same as our figures, right down to the relief detail on the flag, the sapper's pose and position of his left arm on his strap, etc. etc. etc. Perhaps you need to look at these a bit more closely rather than writing it off to "well, they're old guard and old guard are old guard and muskets are the same size at this scale, etc...."

And comments by people saying they are sad that these have been withdrawn I find eye raising as well. Yes, they're cheaper, unauthorized copies of superior original products usually are. It's sad that collectors buy such products to save a few $ as it just encourages such behavior.

Perhaps for you all, this is a hobby. But understand, that's it's certainly not to me -this is my livelihood. It pays my mortgage, my kids education, etc. so we take it extremely seriously. How would any of you feel if I just went into your job and took what you did and passed it off as my own? Please view it through that prism. I have no issue with companies that view our success and try to emulate us stylistically, something many companies including War Park do. But they have to do it without violating our intellectual property rights, which in this case they clearly have. So not defending our intellectual property is the dangerous precedent.​

I understand First Legions point of view as it is
His livelihood. Indeed I am in the process of switching
From gloss to matt and in particular First Legion and war park. However,the comment about collectors trying to save a few $ is a little unfair, not all collectors have bottomless pockets and with prices constantly going up. These figures offered good value. The First Legion figures are out of production and sell on eBay for about £115 pounds each I am never going to pay that for them so a figure for £40 I am in for. So naturally people are going to be disappointed it's not a few $ it's like nearly 3 times less.

 

[desk11desk12]

Again, you can't buy this kind of publicity anywhere.

Look at the count on this thread...WOW!

Carlos

 

[Spanish soldier]

FL releases fewer figures than years ago. It may be that the constant rise in prices lowers its collectors.

 

[tdubel]

I'm a little late to this conversation.

How does copying even work? Are the originals 3D scanned and then new molds created? Are unscrupulous producers in China, who have access to the original molds, producing additional figures and selling them on the side? Considering just how similar the WP and FL figures are, it strikes me as improbable that the WP figures were sculpted from scratch.

I have very little insight into figure production cost but I suspect the sculpt is a tangible portion of the overall cost. If someone is able to bypass this step it would likely create a financial advantage. I've seen the same figure sculpts appear from numerous Russian studios. For instance, Aeroart figures that have also been released as Russian Vityaz. I don't know if there is licensing involved in regards to the sculpt or shady business practices.

The fact that cheap knock offs are still produced, despite the information being readily available on the internet, indicates there is a market for people who just don't have a holistic view of the impacts of their purchasing decisions.

I already agree with the WP copied FL issue here, but another question you asked I think I can address.

Aeroart - Thor commissions figures in Russia and for the last I think 15 plus years he owns the sculpts (and yes they are still copied by other Russian painters who pirate the figure as well as a "toy soldier" manufacturer who took a lot of liberty IMO). That said - when Thor used Grudsky, Granada and Arsenyev (Vityaz) as contractors, they retained ownership on a number of the sculpts so techically, they own those and therefore some figures you will see in a lot of variants. Russia is a tricky one!

As to the 75mm Chinese Resin kits I am seeing out there, that's a disgrace and rampant, they are killing some of the original makers wholeheartedly with upscaled copies all over the map on ebay. It is COPYING pure and simple.

Tom

 

[The Military Workshop]

Some have commented that it is not so much an issue as the FL figures were produced years ago and sold out. Brad says no commercial loss. Others cant seem to get the objections raised by FL and others.

This French unit is the most famous. There was nothing to stop FL re-issuing them if they thought there would be some demand. I wonder if some who have commented here would be so unconcerned if the figures were copies of early Jenkins ?

TomD and Rutledge mentioned some aspects concerning the sculpting. I have some experience in this having commissioned a sculptor as well as two military artists. With the sculptor he was already experienced in sculpting Australian figures. We did 200mm which at that time nobody had done for Australian figures. We agreed on pose and I left the details to him as I knew he had the experience, knowledge and reference material. The resulting figures were nothing like anything that had been produced at that time. I also produced a 150mm Queensland Fireman figurine. I did a photo shoot mainly for the Qld colours etc but the actual pose and even some of the equipment (hose, air tank) were identical to a HK figure I used as reference. Difference was the person helping me with the Qld version was same who did the HK one. He got more value and money out of his original sculpt.

The sculptors are a crucial part of the process for any brand, and far more important than the painters. This would be reflected in their pay. Time for research and actual sculpting is a cost factor. The more sculpts the sculptor(s) can do the more releases and more competitive the brand. If you can get more than one version out of same sculpt even better and there have been many examples of this.

Use the Old Guard as the example. When I made comparisons between FL/WP figures with the image posted I noted there were many images on Google. I have no idea which is right but there were plenty of variations. Should a brand/sculptor starting in Naps stock up on books of which there are many and cost money ? Obtain examples of other types of figures made ? Then the brand needs to brief the sculptor and make many decisions on size, pose, multiple uniform and equipment details etc. This all takes valuable time for both sides. Then you need to provide reference material and instruct the master painter upon which the factory workers will base the final figures.

There were 6 figures made. Copying them is so much easier and cost effective than starting from zero without having seen figures from elsewhere. Any brand copying is saving time, money and effort and this is to the disadvantage of the original maker as it undercuts their work.

As Tom mentioned this is very prevalent in the kit world also. In the case of military art you just copy it from online and do whatever size you like and can even make up a false narrative to suggest selling something original. Much like in this case the buyers didnt care as they were getting a much cheaper product. It took a lot of my time to shut down a UK Ebayer doing that several years ago. I think Ebay legal department is made up of legal types like Brad as they clearly had no problem in my case and there are multiple examples on Ebay of fakes being sold across all types of product.

 

[Gebhard]

Just wanted to mention that First Legion have already re-released all these figures with new paint jobs as the Old Guard Dutch Grenadiers.

They continue to get value back from their investment of time and money to create these fine figures which is the way it's supposed to work.

I really can't see how every can't see that this was wrong on WP's part, it seems that they have and moved on.

 

[Poppo]

By the photos( not only naps,but also the ww2 germans), it seems clear to me that WP wish to compete and take a part of FL's market. Not only the figures style is very, very similar, but also the WP winter germans seem to be realized to integrate the FL winter germans. It seems to me that in the past TG( even if the figures did not look alike) made a similar operation towards KC.

Said this, I don't want to enter in a legal matter, but personally, I buy what I like (and no company produces what I actually wish, so that I am used to modify, repaint, convert figures), and what is not so expensive, because I find silly to spend a lot of money in a toysoldier; of course this is only my point of view.

 

[Sgtminiman]

Dear First legion,


First of all,War Park express our sincerest apologies to you.


At the beginning of the prototype designing, we did not consider all aspects. We contacted the lawyer as soon as we received your message.
The lawyer's opinion is that although there are some differences in details, but there is a certain degree of similarity in the overall concept.
We did make a mistake at this point.


Now these six figures are off the shelf. All money will be returned to our customers in full. All related products will not be sold. At the same time, we promise that such accidents will not happen again.


As a brand which respects intellectual property rights, we did make a mistake, for which we made a official apology to First legion and all customers.


War Park

Hi War park,
I love your figures and delivery. However
I ordered the above Old Guard on the 23rd Dec
And have not been refunded or had any reply to my
Numerous emails or private message through this
Site. Hence having to post here please make contact
Although this will possibly be removed. Not sure
Why as no reason given last time.
Thanks
Gary

 

[Sgtminiman]

Hi War park,
I love your figures and delivery. However
I ordered the above Old Guard on the 23rd Dec
And have not been refunded or had any reply to my
Numerous emails or private message through this
Site. Hence having to post here please make contact
Although this will possibly be removed. Not sure
Why as no reason given last time.
Thanks
Gary

I have now had a reply the gentleman has been
Busy modifying Napoleonic figures and will
Deal with this issue thanks Gary