Wellington in America 1812 (alternate history) (1 Viewer)

[Capitolron]

Lets just say we have a plan for everything.

A real plan - not a war game.

 

[jazzeum]

I thought you were a lobbyist, didn't realize you were in active service.

 

[Combat]

Lets just say we have a plan for everything.

A real plan - not a war game.

Is it called Operation Maple Syrup?

Smiley: How do you know that was a nuclear facility?
General Panzer: Well, they tricked us on that one. That's a hospital. But it's a hell of a strike!

 

[Capitolron]

I thought you were a lobbyist, didn't realize you were in active service.

Two Years as the Senior Policy Advisor for the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee in the US House of Representatives.

But, now a Lobbyist - who can afford his hobby

 

[Tex]

Actually Louis, the Pentagon has drawn up plans on multiple occasions through the 19th and 20th Centuries on how best to invade Canada. The most recent declassified plan is "Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan - Red" which was drafted in the mid-1930's.

I think it is safe to assume that the pentagon has plans for an invasion of nearly every nation. As for the US being most likely to invade Canada....don't think so. Maybe just as a joke one day, to fullfill the "Canadian Bacon Prophesy."

 

[panda1gen]

Bit late to this but it is obviously the right room for an argument..............

1812, thought we Brits were a bit busy with the short Corsican one? He was more than enough to contend with wasn't he? The US frigates were possibly the only serious naval threat of the time, but the Canadians utterly routed the US invasion on land didn't they?

As for the mid 1860s, Britain and France were distracted with the Crimea and the French and Prussians were soon to fight and the French to loose Paris - any diversion in strength to the American Continent may have been imprudent.............

Especially in the late 1860's, I have to agree with Louis' assessment that the Union Army of that time would (or given some of the Generalship displayed during that war) should, have utterly destroyed any European Army (except possibly the Prussians who would not have been there).

The European Armies would not even fully learn in the war of 1870 and the boer war what the USA learned in their civil war and would have to learn the hard way in 1914. Remember the huge French casualties in 1914/1915 with their doctine of a bayonet charge wearing lovely bright uniforms into machine guns. Followed up by the British on the Somme in 1916 and the USA again in 1918.

This is written without any element of humour or sarcasm.....it is just ghastly evidence of what is a historical truth - every Army seems to have to learn its own lessons - usually the hard way...............

As for the US invading Canada - surely everything Louis said about snipers and guerilla war would have worked in reverse.......the USA would still be fighting there now????????

When I went to Canada (about 30 years ago) it was openly discussed how they would fight if the USA did invade......................like the Americans themselves, many had a gun.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

CS,

Are these real plans that anyone ever had an intention of initiating, or are they war college exercises? I can't imagine us getting ready to attack Canada during the great depression, it just doesn't make sense.

Hi Louis,

I don't necessarily see a huge distinction between "plans" and "exercises". Any given plan or exercise crafted by military planners can be dragged into use if the right combination of events come to pass. Even though the U.S. was weakened economically during the depression, so were most other industrialized nations. It was a turbulent period in history with revolutions and great swings in political ideologies as populations sought relief from their hardships. Anything could have happened, especially if Roosevelt had not been there to prevent fascism overtaking America like it did in many other countries. Fascist governments look to expand their borders, and a quick war with Canada might have looked like a nice way to jump-start the economy, not to mention seize some of Britain's wealthy colonies and reunite the North American continent. Alternatively, Britain might have done something to tick America off and again Canada would’ve been caught in the middle. Or if Germany had taken over Britain in 1940, Canada would suddenly be in constitutional crisis and might have been annexed by the US for the sake of " mutual protection".

However, if I had to choose I would say the 1935 plan would fall more into the category of "exercise". It was probably drafted as much to give U.S. defence planners some practice drafting plans, as anything else. To my knowledge no great army was marshalled on the US/Canada border. “Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan – Red” was created as a contingency in case the US ever went to war with Britain. Knocking out Canada was important to crippling Britain, as was capturing Bermuda etc. There were similar plans drafted in case America should ever need to go to war against Mexico (Plan Green), Japan (Orange), Germany (Black), the Caribbean (Gray), or Central America (Purple). Obviously, elements from two of those plans were eventually put into effect, so it is fortunate America had worked on them (though clearly the Pearl Harbor defence chapter in Plan Orange was a bit lacking!).

As for earlier U.S. plans to invade Canada (or British plans to invade the US), I have no idea how close they came to being initiated in the secret halls of power that Ron claims to be privy to. I suspect we may never know.

I don't begrudge U.S. defence planners for having plans to attack Canada, it was only prudent in case, for some unforseeable reason, the muck hit the fan with Britain. It's just that like a number of Canadians (including Wellington in this thread, I'm sure), I look at Canadian/US history with the view that in any given year Canada was only one or two steps away from attempted annexation. That's natural for any "small" country (population wise relative to the USA) that borders a much larger nation with similar ethnic composition (e.g. Germany annexing Austria, China annexing Tibet etc.). Indeed, the 1935 plan was not only defensive in nature - it stated that the U.S. would seek to retain permanent control over as much of Canada as it could capture. Interestingly, it believed that if Canada/Britain beat the U.S. in this hypothetical war, we would ask to be given control over Alaska.

Now, returning to the original topic of this thread, I don’t think the Duke of Wellington would have made much of a difference in the War of 1812. Wellington was primarily a defensive commander. Except for the Battle of Salamanca, his major victories were defensive in nature. Since the commanders already in Canada didn’t have a lot of trouble beating back the American invasion, I don’t know how much extra Wellington could have contributed, and I doubt he would have been much help on the offence trying to invade America. As Louis and Steve have said, he might very well have met his end at the hands of some American sniper.

 

[Tex]

To build on what CS said, I do know that in the 20s and 30s, many US Navy exercises modelled the hypothetical enemy force on the Royal Navy. I guess it makes sense, considering that Britain was the dominant naval power of the period, and the US was a considerable one.

 

[wellington]

Unreal...the US invading Canada....one of the only trusted allies you have....the US might be large but if they ever tried to invade Canada they would lose much of the support they still have left in the rest of the world..I guess it would be a world war 3 and we all would lose.....or perhaps the US would like to exist alone in this world....sometimes it scares me we even have neighbours that have such thoughts...one thing is for sure I would fight to the death defending my Country. Remember Rome they fell from within and I'm sure the US would do the same....not all Americans think violence is the answer and who wants to be the bully anyway. All it takes is repeated terrorist attacks or a nuc and the world will be changed for EVER!!!

WELLINGTON

 

[Tex]

Don't be afeared, Wellington
I don't think anybody realistically thinks the US would invade Canada. I don't think anybody really wants the US to invade Canada. It is ridiculous.

 

[wellington]

Tex....I appreciate your concern...I was going to let this thread die...but since I have my second wind now....I just wanted it down for the record I'm not afraid....I do think that any Country invading another Country should be the ones who are afraid......


WELLINGTON