What quality improvements should be made by KC and would it affect your purchases? (1 Viewer)

[Warrior]

For what it's worth, here is my .02 on FOV and 21st Century toys.

When they first started out, they needed dealers like myself to "get the word out" about their products. Their prices were very fair and I sold hundreds of vehicles as a result. My very first FOV order was shipped to me on PALLETS and dropped off in front of my house via forklift.

Once they were established in the marketplace, they went to the mass merchandisers and sold their souls to them. Mass merchandisers retail FOV vehicles below my wholesale cost, ie, a tank at Walmart sells for 20.00, which is 2.00 BELOW my cost. I retail the same tank for 35.00 to 40.00 and all I hear is "I got that already at Walmart, K Mart, Toys R Us, Target, Lou's gas station, etc." My sales on FOV are minimal at this point, barely worth my time to be frank.

So, FOV has sacrificed profit per vehicle for the home run sales at mass merchandisers. Walmart probably pays 8.00 per tank, where I pay 22.00 per tank; the fact is most of the customers buying them at mass merchandisers are toy soldier collectors who would be otherwise be buying them from dealers, so in the end, what has FOV gained? Nothing. They are selling loads of tanks at 8.00 each to mass merchandisers instead of 22.00 each to toy soldier dealers. As Andy pointed out, FOV is slowing down their production, they have come out with only a handful of new vehicles this year, most are just repaints of older models.

My point here is I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for FOV to come out with a cheaper alternative to 1/30th scale polystone vehicles, they are going backwards, not forwards in my opinion. They made their beds, now they have to lie in them.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis
That 1999 Hanomag that came out shortyly after the first polystone Stug does not feel like polystone. I think it is metal. Could you enlighten me a bit about this piece
Regards
Damian

Damian,

There was a wood and a resin Hanomag produced between 1996 and 1999, so you could be talking about one of them. The polystone version is described as follows:

"The April, 1999, price list added the first 3 German Polystone vehicles, the first Whitman Tiger (WS15), the Hanomag (WS13) & the Stug III (WS14).

The Hanomag (WS13) was painted in a three-tone camouflage of green and orange on an almost a yellow ochre base on which elements had been outlined in black, with a green and grayish green interior. Again extras like gas cans, bedrolls, and knapsacks are sculpted into the vehicle, as is a spare tire sculpted into the front bumper. On the bottom of the vehicle the K&C logo “Waffen SS” and “@1999” are sculpted. The markings and license plate numbers are again sculpted and painted in place, but the detail of the bogie wheels appears better than on the Sherman, with only a little “crud” appearing between the front drive sprocket and the foremost bogie wheels on either side. The machine gun shield is cast separately and fits onto the vehicle, and the gun is sculpted onto the figure of the gunner, sculpted in a classic crouched firing position with an MG42 held in his right hand, braced to his right shoulder, over which is slung a Schmeisser machine pistol. His base, like the base on the Amtrak gunner, is sculpted to match the interior of the vehicle. The figure wears autumn colored speckled camo pants and tunic, and has a green helmet with “SS” markings."

The Wood and Resin Versions are described as follows:

"As of February, 1996, the para jeep, along with the rest of the first five highly detailed and beautifully finished wood "Normandy Fighting Vehicles", the Tiger, Stug IV, Hanomag, and Bren Gun Carrier, the two wood RAF vehicles, an Austin K2 Ambulance (in Blue, Green [rare] and desert tan [only 5 made]) and Bedford QL Fuel Bowser, appeared in both the flyer and the price lists. . . .

These vehicles mark the zenith of King & Country armored vehicle production. They were produced in the same factories in the Philippines which produced the Warbirds, and were hand-carved to a much higher standard than the earlier tanks, and finished with many better crafted metal detail pieces. The hatches were hollowed out deep enough to accommodate a half-figure of a tank commander, and the hatch covers (which opened and closed) were attached with tiny metal hinges. The paint was applied with airbrushes. Individual wood wheels were carved and attached, and resin tracks separately applied for added realism. The effect was stunningly realistic. . . .

The Wood Hanomag came in both European (three-tone green and brown on tan) and desert (two-tone reddish brown on tan) camouflage schemes. These vehicles were marked with three digit numbers beginning with 1 or 2 (i.e. 114 or 217). There were wheels under the rear portion of the chassis to allow the half-tracked vehicle to roll like a child’s toy (I guess some collectors like to play with their toy soldiers like John LaRoquette’s character in Stripes). There was a wood machine gun set in a shield at the front of passenger compartment, and a pickaxe, axe and shovel mounted on the sides. This vehicle came with a full figure of a commander wearing a green tunic with the sleeves rolled up and a soft cap with earphones, holding binoculars to his eyes. This vehicle, designated TK04, originally retailed for $256. Approximately 100 to 200 of these vehicles were produced. . . .

By June, 1996, a wonderful 30 Corps. British Sherman Tank, a Resin Hanomag, a resin Kubelwagon, and a resin bren Gun Carrier were added. These resin vehicles, as was mentioned above, were produced in very small numbers (15 to 20 of each) with the exception of the resin Kubelwagon, of which 100+ were produced. . . .

The resin Hanomag came in a two-tone brown on brown camouflage, had spare bogie wheels mounted on either side, and was designated with numbers starting with 2 or 3 (i.e. 243 or 314). This vehicle, which oddly sold in competition with K&C’s wood Hanomags, never sold well according to Andy, and is among the rarest of all K&C production vehicles, with no more than 5-10 being made. This vehicle, sharing the designation TK04 with the wood Hanomag, likewise retailed for $256."

I hope this helps. If your hanomag matches the description of the polystone hanomag, but still doesn't feel like polystone, I can tell you that different mixtures of polystone (less ground marble, more polyresin) feel differently.

 

[damian]

Thanks Louis
I have the April 1999 version.

Could somebody explain teh economics of FOV. If they are selling their product at Walmarts surely their profits should increase and they should be bringing out new stuff. Why are walmarts the kiss of death.

Regards
Damian Clarke

 

[Warrior]

Damian,
Walmarts are the kiss of death because they may be selling more units for you, but the profit per unit is much, much less. Walmart buys the tanks at wholesale for 8.00 each instead of 22.00, so you profit is now about 1/3rd of what it once was.

To that you may say "But Walmart is selling large numbers of tanks, so even though the profit is lower per tank, you end up wholesaling many more units." I'm of the opinion that you will sell more units, but not that much more, plus a lot of customers of toy soldier dealers who used to buy from them are now buying from Walmart, so the dollars are going from the dealers to the mass merchandisers, the number of units being sold is not really go up in this case, just being purchased at a different supplier is all..................

 

[lenswerks]

Walmart sells the Action series, not the Enthusiast series. Most collectors are interested in the Enthusiast series. They are the same vehicles, but the Enthusiast series are weathered. Most diecast dealers carry only the Enthusiast series. The action series cost a lot less than the Enthusiast series. Also, you can’t sell what you don’t have and Walmart is notorious for having minimal inventory or an inventory consisting of four of the same vehicle, for months.

 

[Warrior]

Lensworks,
Good points all around, but I have heard reports that Walmart is getting the enthusiast versions to some degree.

Bottom line is my experience has been if a customer can get the Lee for 20.00at Walmart or 45.00 through me, they are going to take the Walmart version every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

My sales on FOV have gone in the toilet to be frank, I don't even concern myself with their items at this point, I order just what I need in most cases to fill preorders for the loyal customers I do have and I don't concern myself with holding stock anymore, the demand is just not there...................

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Hi There!
The downside of mass marketed items has been well discussed but there is also an important service also being provided for our relatively small hobby. These well detailed and reasonably priced vehicles and figures are bringing a historic military product to a much larger audience.
Many of the collectors I know were first introduced to military toys by Marx, Timpo, W.Britain and Elastolin as youngsters. Toys like this pretty much disappeared from retailers shelves for many years and I for one am happy to see them return in even this limited fashion.
Some years ago I overheard two teenage employees in a hobby shop that included a large inventory of military models that stunned me. The one young man debated the other on the fact that the US was allied to the Germans in WWII and that the two countries fought the Russians. I don't think this was an isolated incident at this time.
I belive the current youth has had the advantage of movies like Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, Video games like Medal of Honor and a surge in low run, high quality special interest WWII books to inform them. These things combined with living history demonstrations in many parts of the country, the History and Military channels and high quality mass marketed historic military toys may insure that our small hobby will get some new blood in the future.
We as manufacturers are also effected by this availibility of information. We must continually improve the detail, finish, scale and subject matter to please a demanding audience. Sure the products today are good...they are much better than 8 to 10 years ago by leaps and bounds. Will they get better? I am sure that most will, but we also must be reasonable in what we expect within certain price points. Remember that good R&D for new products cost time and money and there is also the increase in prices for raw materials and labor. I suspect that like everything else as the expectations for quality increase the prices will also increase. Limited edition runs of 250 to 500 units do not make sense for anyone but speculators and we really need a larger audience to grow. improve quality and create more diverse products.
Collecting miniatures or even militaria is a very tactile thing and certain personality types will always be attracted to this. Even in museum exhibits visitors young and old are always mesmerized by anything in miniature and I truely belive that if we can reach a larger audience our hobby will remain healthy. Perhaps then, companies like Forces of Valor and 21st century Toys are doing us a service in the long run. Just a thought...Ken Osen

 

[Capitolron]

I dont buy FOV items - but, I understand why this is bad for the dealer - on the other hand I cant see how this is bad for the individual collector ??

Same product for a cheaper price - sounds good to the individual collector.

Since most of us here are individual collectors.....I fail to understand why what FOV is doing with selling to the WalMarts of the World is bad for us If I collected FOV - I think that mass production and mass marketing is good for us.

I guess this debate has to be looked at from the point of view - either the collector or the dealer.

Ron

 

[damian]

I have noticed that FOV came out with a big bang two years ago but now seems to be running out of steam a bit. Most of the product is simply repaints of older models.
I bought a few when they first cam eout and thye are adequate to go in a diorama. I haven't bought any for ages
Regards
Damian

 

[Canadian Samurai]

A warm welcome to “Canadian Samurai”...it’s always nice to see fresh blood on the Forum.

Thank you very much Andy. It is a pleasure and an honour to know my comments are being read by the president of a toy soldier company.

As you might expect however I do take issue with him and even my good friend Louis Badolato on their oft professed opinion that “polystone is, more or less junk”.

Echoing Brad's comment, I just want to make clear that while I very much dislike polystone as a material I am impressed with what you and your people have managed to do with it. You've taken leftovers and cooked up a gourmet feast. But after a while even the best meal can get a bit boring... and in a hobby that is used to continuous improvement, maybe this is one area to re-examine…

For example, as its WW1 line expands, you know K&C is going to have to start doing a lot of artillery for all sides. Artillery is more fragile and with lower tolerances for error than vehicles. Unless K&C switches to using a lot more metal for these new pieces, you’re going to be very hard pressed to match the durability and detail of the die-cast artillery already produced by Britains, Trophy and Toy Army Workshop (with finely machined cranks, elevating barrels, opening breeches etc.). It is not like K&C to release a lower quality product so I hope K&C recognizes the shortcomings of polystone when this time comes. But you’re welcome to defy my expectations about what is possible with the material. Certainly we the collectors can only benefit if you do!

Regardless, the intention of my original post was not really to dredge up this debate about polystone which I know has a history of controversy. Truthfully I am more of a figure/artillery collector than a vehicle collector, so I am just happy if you Andy (and any other manufacturers) could read my first two “Ps” concerning figure quality and hopefully put them on a sticky note on your wall of a million other important things to work on.

Plastic and metal vehicles without doubt also have many advantages but, importantly, not for the small and medium sized manufacturer. The cost of plastic and/or die cast tooling is prohibitively expensive for companies like ourselves, and many others.

I don’t necessarily buy the idea that K&C has its hands tied as a small manufacturer and cannot make metal/plastic vehicles without getting in bed with the mass retailers. Surely the company that introduced mass-production techniques and lower-wage Asian labour to the toy soldier hobby can also figure out a way to offer us limited run metal and plastic 1/30 vehicles for an affordable (though of course higher) price.

Louis says you have done metal vehicles before. And as I noted above, many of the cottage manufacturers have managed to produce very small runs of high quality glossy metal vehicles and artillery. Companies like Fusilier are still doing so. Since the resounding success of K&C has driven this cottage industry into the ground, are you now prepared to pick up the metal torch?

Even “Forces of Valor”, (which I personally consider to be the best of the 1:32 scale mass-produced military models) is scaling back its production. Now, why is that? Perhaps our friend from north of the border can explain that one... .

Well first of all, slowing down their release rate of vehicles does not necessarily mean they are in financial trouble (though perhaps you have inside knowledge to that effect) – unlike K&C, FOV are much slower to retire pieces so they may need to give some time for the old inventory to clear through.

Another reason FOV may be slowing production is because man cannot live on tanks alone – once you have your fourth FOV panzer IV tank, you’ve had enough. A key shortcoming of FOV (along with their sub-standard paint jobs) is that they do not produce their own line of high quality figures that are needed to create and sustain a complete collection/display of WWII. Their pack-in figures are very poor and primarily meant as an accessory to the tank rather than the other way around. Thus a new customer searching for excellent figures turns to the toy soldier hobby, discovers and buys K&C’s superior figures, and then is locked into the 1/30 scale polystone trap.

But if K&C were to try their hand at metal/plastic, you of course have the excellent painting skills and full line of superb figures to accompany the vehicles and make the complete package much more attractive to consumers.

I believe Canadian Samurai is looking, albeit closely, at a relatively small part of a much, much bigger picture. If he is so convinced that K&C has got it wrong in so many ways why not set up his own company to do it better and smarter.

I know any kind of criticism can be very hard to take. It has a soul-destroying effect on those it is directed against. So Andy I just want you to know that I admire the job you have done in building your company and releasing such fantastic figures. But I don’t need to tell you that – 90% of the other posts on this forum do a better job than I possibly could of complementing your efforts and confirming that you are the current King of Toy Soldiers in the world. So whether you also choose to read and take seriously the critical comments and suggestions of toy soldier collectors like myself is entirely your choice to make.

However, history seems to show that any species or country or company that rests on its laurels and doesn’t constantly improve will eventually stagnate and go extinct in the face of more innovative competitors. But I don’t have to tell you that Andy because your continuous innovation in this industry has brought us to where we are today. I just want to urge you to keep innovating and pushing the quality envelope!

I will also concede flat out that if I tried to run a toy soldier company, it would probably fail miserably. You run the most successful toy soldier business in the world and I am proud to have your figures as the centerpiece of my collection (along with Monarch Regalia samurai). But I am young with my life ahead of me (some of the new blood in this hobby that Ken mentioned), so I guess you never know… maybe one day you’ll regret that you planted the idea of starting my own company in my small noggin!

 

[Peter Reuss]

I dont buy FOV items - but, I understand why this is bad for the dealer - on the other hand I cant see how this is bad for the individual collector ??

Same product for a cheaper price - sounds good to the individual collector.

Since most of us here are individual collectors.....I fail to understand why what FOV is doing with selling to the WalMarts of the World is bad for us If I collected FOV - I think that mass production and mass marketing is good for us.

I guess this debate has to be looked at from the point of view - either the collector or the dealer.

Ron

I'm not a FOV dealer, so I speak with no bias...

Perhaps the danger in getting into bed with Walmart, Toyr R Us, etc is that the manufacturer loses a sense of independence. The large chains have a lot more say in what gets produced. While the quantities may increase, the variety may decrease. As I see if, if FOV wanted to be viable working through smaller dealers they would have to come out with more options to keep people coming back. The big box stores want things simple. They don't want 10 different things taking up shelf space. They only have a little space - so they only want what would be the most desirable. This limits the scope of what can be made - and it ties the hands of the manufacturer to only produce what the box store wants.

The other problem is that if Walmart decides that FOV isn't profitable anymore, they will drop them like a hot potato. FOV will have lost most of their dealer network to move to Walmart, so it could cause big problems down the road.

Smaller manufacturers (and yes, in reality K&C is small compared for corporate giants) are free to make limited runs of a wider variety of offerings, which I think is much better for the collector and the hobby.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[jazzeum]

I agree with Pete. They wield a lot of power and can infleunce what you do. For example, they want to use RFID, a kind of package tracking technology. Manufacturers who want to sell to them have had no choice but to follow suit. In the recording industry, if you want to sell your CDs in their stores, you need to make sure the lyrics are acceptable to them or change them if they're not. That is power.

 

[Eazy]

I will also concede flat out that if I tried to run a toy soldier company, it would probably fail miserably. You run the most successful toy soldier business in the world and I am proud to have your figures as the centerpiece of my collection (along with Monarch Regalia samurai). But I am young with my life ahead of me (some of the new blood in this hobby that Ken mentioned), so I guess you never know… maybe one day you’ll regret that you planted the idea of starting my own company in my small noggin!

This is a funny post. I like it.
How do you qualify to be young blood with your whole life ahead of you? Is there a cut off point at which time you are no longer youngblood and just some boring old has been?
I'm 37 should I be consigned to the scrap heap now or have I got a few good years left?
Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[Rob]

Oh god at 43 that means i'm almost a pensioner!

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

Are you kidding, when I started collecting, 43 was practically an infant in this hobby. All the collectors seemed to be septegenarians! I was in my mid-20's then (I am about to turn 40), and the collectors I met were all shocked by my interest. I remember when Shannon contacted me about joining the forum, and we spoke on the phone, she was shocked at how young I sounded, because she assumed as a long time collector I was over 70. One of the nicest changes in the hobby I've noticed is the amount of collectors under 50 now equals or exceeds the number over 50, so the hobby is not dying out, as I had heard predicted.

 

[Capitolron]

Are you kidding, when I started collecting, 43 was practically an infant in this hobby. All the collectors seemed to be septegenarians! I was in my mid-20's then (I am about to turn 40), and the collectors I met were all shocked by my interest. I remember when Shannon contacted me about joining the forum, and we spoke on the phone, she was shocked at how young I sounded, because she assumed as a long time collector I was over 70. One of the nicest changes in the hobby I've noticed is the amount of collectors under 50 now equals or exceeds the number over 50, so the hobby is not dying out, as I had heard predicted.

Whew - under 50 is the new mark - glad I made the cut

I think the hobby is getting more diverse in age and Louis is right that the appeal is expanding to all age groups. Look at guys like Arnhem and RE LEE - fine young examples of what is coming up in the hobby !

 

[Warrior]

Ron,
You missed my entire point regarding FOV. If a consumer want to drive to 87 Walmarts and waste an entire Saturday looking for the new Mark IV to save 20.00, go right ahead. Good for the consumer to get the product at a cheaper price, knock yourself out.

My point was by selling to mass merchandisers, profits are lower and as Peter put it, you are now under their thumb and as Brad said, if they drop you, what do you do, go back to the toy soldiers dealers that you screwed over and undercut and ask them to take your product back? Once you sell to mass merchandisers, there is no turning back.

Several years ago, 21st Century pulled the same stunt and undercut the dealers who had built up the customer base and sold to Toys R Us. A woman was in the store with her son and saw a German tank with a cross on it, complained about it and Toys R Us told 21st they would no longer stock German tanks, just American and British. Guess how that worked out for 21st; as Andy pointed out, they nearly folded as a company........................

 

[Capitolron]

Ron,
You missed my entire point regarding FOV. If a consumer want to drive to 87 Walmarts and waste an entire Saturday looking for the new Mark IV to save 20.00, go right ahead. Good for the consumer to get the product at a cheaper price, knock yourself out.

My point was by selling to mass merchandisers, profits are lower and as Peter put it, you are now under their thumb and as Brad said, if they drop you, what do you do, go back to the toy soldiers dealers that you screwed over and undercut and ask them to take your product back? Once you sell to mass merchandisers, there is no turning back.

Several years ago, 21st Century pulled the same stunt and undercut the dealers who had built up the customer base and sold to Toys R Us. A woman was in the store with her son and saw a German tank with a cross on it, complained about it and Toys R Us told 21st they would no longer stock German tanks, just American and British. Guess how that worked out for 21st; as Andy pointed out, they nearly folded as a company........................

George

You have a good point which I did not think of - that is if you really collect FOV (which I do not) then you WILL have a problem finding your specific item from the general distribution. Or more like a hit or miss thing.

So it looks like the individual dealer is the way to go for the collector. I stand corrected. Good points George - you should be a lobbyist.

Ron

 

[OldCelt]

If any one out her has tried to add to a collection through a big retailer they now it is very frustrating!
When PlayAlong came out with the Lord of the Rings 132 figures the only place I could find them was Walmart,Kmart,Targetand K B Toys.
Customer service is terrible. They can't guarenty a thing. Questions were not answerd effectivly.
"When will you get more of these in stock?'
"we don't know when or if we will get the same thing?" ..."try our store at Xville."
Will they call the store at Xville?
"Sir. Right now I'm rather busy." etc.. you get the picture.
I finally gave up the effort.
O.C.

 

[OldCelt]

O.C. Again. Back to the original thread theme.
It just occured to me that at one time K&C did tank hatches that could be displayed open or closed! That was good. Let's do it again!?!


P.S. I some how or another got promoted to Sergeant..I think i'm gona' stop at he "Duke O Argyles" and celebrate with a pint'o Guiness!!!