What to buy for resale. (1 Viewer)

panda1gen said:
Gideon

As always you talk great sense - what happens when us sad baby boomers move on? Will the computer generation care for this stuff? Meanwhile who gives a care?
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Just remember what goes up will come down - like stocks, bonds and even beanie babies.

Buy what you like ! Because if you sit on it too long it can be there for a long time or at a loss.

I have seen that the Tanks - German (especially) have the best resell value from ebay. Brad has the numbers - I think ?
 
Gideon,
Couldn't have said it any better myself, excellent analysis of the K & C retired market. As you said, the bus is being driven by a few and if they lose interest or kick the stick, the aftermarket prices could drop like a stone overnight.

The recent trend I have seen to snap up pieces the second they are announced as retired with the thought of selling them down the road for a profit is indeed a slippery slope..................
 
Warrior said:
Gideon,
Couldn't have said it any better myself, excellent analysis of the K & C retired market. As you said, the bus is being driven by a few and if they lose interest or kick the stick, the aftermarket prices could drop like a stone overnight.

The recent trend I have seen to snap up pieces the second they are announced as retired with the thought of selling them down the road for a profit is indeed a slippery slope..................
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Yep. I have bought quite a lot of the discontinued WS and DD sets just to have some on hand - not specualation. I also want them to fill out a display I am intending to put together when I get more space.

I always felt that if something I like goes up in value then great. If not, well, I had fun looking for it.

I have done incredibly well with my Iraqi Dinars. I think I'll hang them on the wall someday or use them to dry my dishes...
 
A very perceptive analysis. What I have noticed in the past two years is that the people who set the market come and go. With respect to the current trend setters, at some point they will have purchased all the retired stuff they're after, assuming they're collectors. The trick i s to replace the current trend setters.

That is a huge if and hardly something that makes you comfortable if you're counting on a steady, sustainable and rising market. Iknow of one huge collector who is looking to sell his collection. That doesn't bode well.

Also as Kevin noted, if you're not replacing the collector base you're in trouble.

As an example, I tried to sell my stamp collection last year to fund guess what. The guy said nice collection but declined. He said if there were kids involved in the hobby, there would be demand and a ready market for collections like the one like mine.
 
Along the lines of expanding the collector base I recall someone mentioning last year that King & Country was looking into doing some major advertising to try and reach new audiences. Was that mentioned at the Symposium or has anyone heard anything along those lines lately.

thanks
Ronnie
www.crossroadsdiecast.com
 
One example to prove my point on the whole buying on speculation plan is the current going rate on the special edition Crusaders K & C gave to dealers in November and December of last year which were basically repaints on three of the foot figures and one of the mounted ones, specifically MK 008. One would have thought these would fetch a high price on Ebay since K & C never offered them as a regular stock item and with the huge bump in popularity in the Crusader and Saracens range.

As Pierre pointed out on another forum, this has not been the case, so anyone who grabbed these in quantity, specifically the mounted figure hoping to make a killing on Ebay looks rather foolish at this point in time. Things may change down the road, but maybe PT Barnum was right..........................
 
I don't think this range has the popularity of WW II and that's where the money is. It's also possible that you may be dealing with a different kind of collector for this range.
 
Good point Brad, but you would think that those four items are in extremely limited quantities, even more so that some of the WWII items and that in itself would make them valuable, but this has not been the case early on. Perhaps if Andy makes many more items to go along with the current range of MK's, that will make those pieces valuable............
 
You know - its hard to say what a real "value" collector item will be or not.

It is also kinda of ridiculous to predict what the market will be for an item - when it has only been in the market for a short period of time - like the MK series. Interests change and market demands change with them for a list of reasons. I would think as the MK range grows so will the value/demand for older items - as in most K&C lines - with a few exceptions of course.

WWII is going right through the roof - watch the BB series (I dont have any of it at this time) - but when Andy retires a Tank or something - watch what happens to that particular item. So it doesnt take long for things to be valuable - it takes the market. And that market will correct itself one day - like all markets do.

But, the truth of the matter is a true valuable K&C item is what the other person is willing to pay for it at that time - plain and simple.
 
Hi Guys,

Very interesting thread...and here’s my tuppence worth on a couple of points raised.

1. “What to buy...”

First and foremost buy what you like and what interests you. I’ve said that over and over again since K&C began more than 20 years ago. Guys who only buy to speculate get absolutely zero pleasure from their purchase and, in some cases, may not even like what they buy...how crazy is that? The real pleasure is in the collecting and the eye of the beholder.

2. Jazzeum’s point of popularity of Crusades versus WWII

Let’s look at this logically Brad...How could anyone expect “The Crusades” series which was only launched last year to even come close to rivaling WWII (in all its many guises) in the popularity stakes. K&C began producing WWII series back in the mid 90’s...that’s over 12 years ago!

And yes, I do agree with you in general both series attract a high proportion of their own enthusiasts with a minimum of cross-over.

3. New Blood in the Hobby...

I can’t speak for everyone else but at K&C we see new collectors (of all age groups) literally every day coming into our stores...or buying online. A proportion of these do become dedicated K&C fans and seek out older, retired items to fill out the “heritage” of their collections...that’s fine by me.

Obviously in any walk of life some come and some go for a multitude of reasons. Both Brad and me know of one major European collector who has decided to sell off his collection. For what reason I know not...he may be fed up...he may need the money...he may want to start collecting something entirely different...who knows? Personally speaking, I don’t think it’s the beginning of a great big sell off of K&C and I’m not too worried either.

This hobby and business is growing...the vitality of this Forum and its popularity is but one small but important aspect of that growth.

One of the major reasons for this growth is the sheer joy of collecting products (not just K&C) that are well-made, well-researched and have a sense of history about them. I’ve lost count of the numbers of people I’ve met in our stores...at shows...or online who say “I’ve never seen this stuff before...I never even knew it existed...it’s great!” And one other comment — “It’s so much fun!”

That, for me, is the “clincher”...the “fun” aspect. Collect it because you like it...pure and simple. If at some point in the future it appreciates in value (for whatever reason)...well so be it...give yourself a pat on the back for your undoubted insight and intuition. But for Gawd’s sake...Enjoy it!

Best wishes and...happy investing...Oops, I meant “happy collecting”!

Andy C.
 
Andy

OUTSTANDING COMMENTS - very good old chap. :D

I agree 100% - this hobby is on the growth pattern. Take a small look at some of the biggest collectors today....Larry told me in NYC that he started collecting only 3-4 years ago and look at his collection now? I am sure he is just one small example of what is happening all over the globe. People come into the hobby and start buying....and collecting.

The ebay market is another good indecator of the growth of the hobby - see how the prices have risen on retired items - just in the last two years alone.

Remember - I have said this before - KING AND COUNTRY is ART. You are buying some great military art for your home and office - when you collect. Andy is a talented artist. His concepts and designs are simply wonderful. Think about our hobby in Art terms and we have a very accessable ART COLLECTION to buy - when beautiful Tanks like the DD45 - Sherman - start off at $99.00 on their release. No other ART culture has that kind of low cost entry level at high quality gain.

JUST REMEMBER - your Toy Soldier Collection (your ART Collection) is yours!
Do as you wish and dont let anyone tell you how or what you can do with it.
Its your money.

My thoughts. :D

Ron
 
I think Andy makes some very good points in his post.I certainly never buy anything for its investment value.I buy an item because it appeals to me and my unquenchable passion for WW1/WW2.Each and every item means a great deal to me and i get a huge amount of enjoyment from them.However just because i would never sell it off doesn't mean i think everyone else shouldn't either.Because of a sacrafice of a lot of people we live in a free world,and you should do whatever 'floats your boat' as it were.Good luck to all the sellers and all the keepers i say.:)

Rob
 
I have to differ slightly from what Andy said.

Regarding the Crusaders. Yes, there is a big difference between the two ranges but the popularity of that range has drawn off the house that K & C World War II built. You would have thought that there would be a slightly heightened interest in the special figures. I think what you have is many K & C collectors getting interested in this range because it is K & C, not necessarily because it is a medieval theme. If it draws more people in, then prices may go up. I think the same thing may happen with WWI. I don't collect WWI from other companies and because I think K & C is superior in quality, sculpting, etc. to all other companies I will collect it. Otherwise, I wouldn't buy WWI. These ranges draw in the K & C collector but I'm not sure how many of the non-K & C collector.

Regarding new blood in the hobby, I agree that new people are coming in but we need to distinguish between those who come in and want to buy everything K & C has ever made (Bill Sager, Larry and me, for example) as opposed to those who just want the newer sculpts or can't afford the older stuff. I'm sure the latter will keep sales moving forward but I'm not sure about the former. I believe that is the point Gideon, George and me were probably trying to make.
 
jazzeum said:
I have to differ slightly from what Andy said.

Regarding the Crusaders. Yes, there is a big difference between the two ranges but the popularity of that range has drawn off the house that K & C World War II built. You would have thought that there would be a slightly heightened interest in the special figures. I think what you have is many K & C collectors getting interested in this range because it is K & C, not necessarily because it is a medieval theme. If it draws more people in, then prices may go up. I think the same thing may happen with WWI. I don't collect WWI from other companies and because I think K & C is superior in quality, sculpting, etc. to all other companies I will collect it. Otherwise, I wouldn't buy WWI. These ranges draw in the K & C collector but I'm not sure how many of the non-K & C collector.

Regarding new blood in the hobby, I agree that new people are coming in but we need to distinguish between those who come in and want to buy everything K & C has ever made (Bill Sager, Larry and me, for example) as opposed to those who just want the newer sculpts or can't afford the older stuff. I'm sure the latter will keep sales moving forward but I'm not sure about the former. I believe that is the point Gideon, George and me were probably trying to make.
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Well one thing is for sure - Time Will Tell - lets have this same discussion two years from now and compare notes.

The one thing that I have found over the years - there are plenty of people who say things can't get any higher (me included) and market proves us wrong. We will see whats in store for the Toy Soldier Market.

But, I do agree with one thing - this is not a good investment strategy - stocks, land, etc... are much better. This should be your "MAD MONEY" stuff - things to play with and have fun.

IMO - Ron :D
 
Once again the Advertising question has been ignored, if, and I have no doubt it's true, Andy has met sooo many people not knowing about K&C why is the advertising not a MAIN focus from the business perspective?
Frankly something does not make sense, if getting the word out there is a major problem to business side success?
With all this in mind the answer to all of these questions and concerns are answered.
Ray

P.S. If great advertising can make a horrible beer like Bud the biggest seller in the world, what can it do for a truely quality product? :confused:
 
With all due respect...

When I was a young child 25 years ago, I would go to many of the toy soldier shows along the east coast. My father and his business partner were known as CWW Toys - a mainstay of the toy soldier hobby for many years and we continue to this day - since 1979.

When I was 5 to 10 years old, a soldier show would be an all weekend event - setup on Saturday morning and pack up on Sunday afternoon. A painting and scratch built model competition would be huge - I mean like hundreds of entries. It would take the judges the full weekend to view them all.

Well, now-a-days, a very well publicized show is one day and draws far fewer people than it did 20-25 years ago. The November show in NJ and the Chicago show are about all that's left now. To have a well publicised soldier show bring in 700 people is ridiculously low compared to when I was a kid.

Every time this topic comes up, a few people try to explain how the relative health of the hobby is good - but it is not. I worry a great deal about how this hobby will be doing in three to five years - most hobbies, in fact.

The accepted number of hobby shops going under is about 4 to every new 1 that opens. That is a compelling number. One of the other mis-conceptions out there is that once a volume retailer like target, FAO or Toys 'r' Us starts picking up these types of toys that things are on the upswing. I know for a fact that companies have been horribly damaged or put out of business by scaling production up to meet the new "anticipated demand" only to be put on clearance and liquidated from their new buyers when the product doesn't perform to the buyers needs.

I strongly believe that a huge marketing push is needed by the industry as a whole, more PR, etc. However, the overwhelming majority of people buying on the web is women between the ages of 30 and 55 - with 65 + as a fast growing demographic. How do the toy soldier companies address this group of people and explain that while the figures depict violence that it promotes an understanding of history and helps tremendously to enhance a childs imagination? I find myself having to explain to people about why I have WWII Germans for sale on my site. Pretty much the same as two guys with swords and shields hacking away at each other.

How do we get out and reach this group of people with a finely crafted message that makes sense??? Hasbro and the other big guys do a great job of advertising their products and driving traffic to their retailers. What are Britains, K&C, Frontline, Tradition and the other major producers doing in this regard? Commercials, large format print ads in mainstream publications and newspapers - the New Yorker maybe? So much of the advertising has to be done just to re-introduce the idea let alone get people collecting again.
 
I think that the audience is there but as Gideon said the product has to be shown to them. If you look at the history or military channels on TV now that would seem to indicate an obvious broad interest. That also would seem to be the avenue to reach the largest audience. I am not an advertising person so I could be wrong. Perhaps the cost are prohibitive.

Ronnie
www.crossroadsdiecast.com
 
I collect purely for my own enjoyment, but if long term value were a consideration then I would go with something like the John Jenkins figures. They are KC quality, limited in number, and reasonably priced. Once they are gone there could be a strong secondary market for these among a niche of collectors.
 
Crossroads said:
I think that the audience is there but as Gideon said the product has to be shown to them. If you look at the history or military channels on TV now that would seem to indicate an obvious broad interest. That also would seem to be the avenue to reach the largest audience. I am not an advertising person so I could be wrong. Perhaps the cost are prohibitive.

Ronnie
www.crossroadsdiecast.com
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Exactly. I have heard miniatures companies talk about reaching out via that/those channels - Andy brought up the idea - but, to date, I think Forces of Valor has been the only one to actually step up.
 
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