Who Made the 1st 1/30 Polystone Armor (2 Viewers)

[The Military Workshop]

I am not certain who was first; but it was most likely either NMA or Honor Bound in 2006. No other manufacturer of polystone armor had made 1/30 scale pieces consistantly until than.

What catagory should posts like this one be in? I thought General Matte Discussion was appropriate as we are discussing matte polystone armor, figures and their history, compatability etc.

Your first para above is a classic. If you know the answer why start this thread in the first place ? When you started this thread nobody responded for two weeks. Then you posted again. You have done this in another thread you started where it had been quiet for 2 months and then you revived it. Not sure how many such threads you have got going but it is flooding the recent activity section. Some have said people are entitled to their opinion. However at least with previous scale threads people were discussing current product. In your case you are mostly talking about brands that are no longer producing (ie. 21st and NMA) and or items that sold out long ago.

I think the category could be called the Ancient History thread. Where people discuss and measure stuff no longer available to be purchased.

 

[katana]

Your first para above is a classic. If you know the answer why start this thread in the first place ? When you started this thread nobody responded for two weeks. Then you posted again. You have done this in another thread you started where it had been quiet for 2 months and then you revived it. Not sure how many such threads you have got going but it is flooding the recent activity section. Some have said people are entitled to their opinion. However at least with previous scale threads people were discussing current product. In your case you are mostly talking about brands that are no longer producing (ie. 21st and NMA) and or items that sold out long ago.

I think the category could be called the Ancient History thread. Where people discuss and measure stuff no longer available to be purchased.

I do not understand why people who are not interested in a subject i.e. scale, History of Toy Soldiers etc, waste their time reading these threads and lamenting the quality and quantity of the discussion. I do not collect any Toy Soldiers except WWII. I do not go onto threads about The American Revolution or The Civil War and cast aspersions about the subject matter. I would be happy to post on a thread where the subjects that interest me and other members of the Forum would be more clearly defined. Until such a thread is created by our generous hosts at Treefrog Treasures, I will continue posting on General Matte Discussion or wherever seems suitable to the subject of the post.

I asked the question about the development of 1/30 scale polystone armor to research the history of Toy Soldier development from 1/32 to 1/30 scales. I do not know the answer; I proposed some logical possabilites as too the originator of 1/30 scale polystone armor i.e. Honor bound or NMA or some other company.

Do you know which company was first in 1/30 scale with polystone armor. I will not revive the thread once I have a reasonable answer.

 

[katana]

Very few of these were made (and the Tiger, probably even less) so unless you or someone else has them and can confirm measurements, I don't think we can say that they were 1/30 as you yourself have said that what it may say on the box doesn't always match what's inside.[/QUOTE

Brad; I have the Sd.Kfz 231 by NMA. It measures 1/30 scale. Figure is WB Fallschirmjager 60mm

Size 1:1------------------------Model Size-------------------------------Scale

Length 232"-------------------7.625-----------------------------------1/30.4

Width 86.6"-------------------2.750-----------------------------------1/31.5

Height 92.5"-------------------3.125-----------------------------------1/29.6S

Average Scale of L+W+H/3-------------------------------------------1/30.5

 

[jazzeum]

The question about who first made 1/30 armor has been asked and answered but even if it hasn't why is the question so important.

 

[katana]

The question about who first made 1/30 armor has been asked and answered but even if it hasn't why is the question so important.

What was the answer? I am trying to compile a history of Toy Soldiers and major changes, like the changes in scale from the traditional 1/32 to 1/30 over the last decade. I was hoping someone on the forum had knowledge of the motivation behind the change and who initiated it. I havent yet received a comprehensive answer.

 

[jazzeum]

I gave you the answer: K & C. I think the more interesting question is who made the first armor to go with toy soldiers and the answer might be FOV. That's what got me into the hobby in the first place. My son had some FOV tanks with so so figures so I wanted to see if I could find better figures. That led me to Britains, which then led me to K & C, which blew me away. I'd never seen anything like it, especially the tanks.

 

[katana]

I gave you the answer: K & C. I think the more interesting question is who made the first armor to go with toy soldiers and the answer might be FOV. That's what got me into the hobby in the first place. My son had some FOV tanks with so so figures so I wanted to see if I could find better figures. That led me to Britains, which then led me to K & C, which blew me away. I'd never seen anything like it, especially the tanks.

Brad the key word is consistantly make 1/30 scale armor. NMA and HB did in 2006. K&C did not until 2009 with the Tunisian Tiger I. Before that it was 1/32. Figarti changed from 1/32 about 2008 and TCS never did 1/30. The closest they came was the 1/29 Arnhem Tiger I; which IMO is one of Brian's best pieces.

21st Century Toys preceded FOV with prebuilt 1/32 scale armor by several years. I was buying 21st Century at Toy Are US in 2000. I first saw FOV at Hobby Town in 2003. I have examples of both manufacturers armor and they both set new standards in pre-built armor. Minichamps also produced their excellent Die Cast 1/35 armor starting about 2001; which blew away both FOV and 21st Century in terms of quality; if not range. All three of these companies seemed to stagnate after about 2006; producing nothing new, just endless repaints. Minichamps remains in business; but the other two are Fallen Flags! Dragon also produced an exquisite line of pre-built plastic models; but has withdrawn from the 1/35 pre-built market. All of which leads to the rise of the polystone panzers; which is why I am asking questions about who was first, when and why; so I can learn more and continue the story. A confluence of events in about 2005 caused the emergence of five major players in Toy Soldiers over the next few years. NMA, Honor Bound, TCS and Figarti. Three of those are gone but NMA is partially resurected in TG and Figarti may re-establish itself; but most likely will not! TCS and TG remain viable innovative companies producing new products. WB is also still viable after too many buyouts and is starting to expand past just the figures to superb artillery products. I believe 21st Century, Minichamps and FOV all inspired the growth in polystone armor producing companies and the flight from the too crowded 1/32 traditional scale to the new 1/30 scale; or in the case of TCS 1/28 scale. The research goes on and the Treefrog Treasures Forum archives are a treasure beyond price in the historical research of the origin and evolution of Toy Soldiers in the 21st Century.

Please feel free to correct any eerrors or false assumptions I have made in this summary of my rsearch to date.
Regards

 

[Deitz]

Will someone please answer the question. I need closure.

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

http://youtu.be/DMnM_cQu6Fo

 

[katana]

Its History and I wish to record it accuratly! A company deserves credit for for their development!
Not mad just obsessive and persistant.

 

[jazzeum]

I don't have any more to add to this thread. As I previously said, asked and answered.

 

[katana]

I don't have any more to add to this thread. As I previously said, asked and answered.

Brad; did you see the data and photo I posted down thread on the NMA Sd.Kfz.231? Also were you aware that 21st Century Toys preceded FOV?

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Katana,

For your answer to who made the first polystone I believe that Brad is correct. K&C. The scale was stated as 1/30th so if you need closure on this try sending a letter or PM to K&C they should have records of when they started this production. This will stop the unnecessary beating of the dead horse and get you your answer.

But I also think you are forgetting makers of the past for the diecast vehicles since you mention FOV etc. Ever hear of Corgi? They were making some amazing Diecast tanks when I was a teenager in the 1970s. If you want to go back further(1930's) you need to look at Hausser and other German companies that were producing tin vehicles to go with the toy soldiers of the era.

But that is of course a topic for a different thread so if no one here has answered your question to your satisfaction contact the companies directly and see if they can tell you when they went to polystone and what the thought process was.

Dave

 

[The Military Workshop]

Brad; did you see the data and photo I posted down thread on the NMA Sd.Kfz.231? Also were you aware that 21st Century Toys preceded FOV?

21st made plastic not polystone. As for NMA they were in business for about one year ten years ago.

 

[OzDigger]

The steel scales give reflections that cause problems in photos. The scale I used has high contrast and no reflections. The scale is calibrated in both inches and millimeters. The data source I use is Tanks-encyclopedia.com. A very good website fo armor specifications and history. I have posted the data before; but I will summarize here:

Full Size PZ IV H------------------------------------------21st Century Cold Steel PZ IV H Size-------------------Scale

Length 276"-----------------------------------------------------------------------9.0"-------------------------------------------------1/30.6

Width 112.8"---------------------------------------------------------------------3.8"-------------------------------------------------1/29.6

Height 105.6"---------------------------------------------------------------------3.5"-------------------------------------------------1/30.2

Ok, I'm back home from work and have some time to catch up on forum issues. For those members interested in correct size/scale, I recommend using a metal ruler with imperial and metric units similar to that below. As you can see both the Imperial and Metric units start from the end of the ruler rather than at opposite ends like the wooden ruler in Katana's photo. If you want to be really keen you can buy callipers, which will either impress your friends, or make them feel just a bit more sad for you.



I user metal rulers as they allow greater flexibility and increased accuracy over wooden versions because you don't have that small gap on the end of wooden rulers that allow for wear. Especially useful when measuring figure height from the top of the base to eye level, or even full head height, also more accurate than wooden ruler when showing height of a vehicle in a photo.

Now to those measurements, well it's not easy assessing dimensions from photos, especially using the archaic imperial units that have long since been superseded in Australia. However assuming Katana measured everything correctly I'd have to agree that it is larger than 1/32 scale, I wouldn't go so far to say it was entirely 1/30 scale, let's call it 1/31. Which means this model is near enough to use with most First Legion and some Britains figures, but we knew this anyway as plenty of collectors are using 21 ST Century and FOV tanks with their figures from the smaller end of the 60 mm range.

 

[OzDigger]

Brad the key word is consistantly make 1/30 scale armor. NMA and HB did in 2006. K&C did not until 2009 with the Tunisian Tiger I. Before that it was 1/32. Figarti changed from 1/32 about 2008 and TCS never did 1/30. The closest they came was the 1/29 Arnhem Tiger I; which IMO is one of Brian's best pieces.

21st Century Toys preceded FOV with prebuilt 1/32 scale armor by several years. I was buying 21st Century at Toy Are US in 2000. I first saw FOV at Hobby Town in 2003. I have examples of both manufacturers armor and they both set new standards in pre-built armor. Minichamps also produced their excellent Die Cast 1/35 armor starting about 2001; which blew away both FOV and 21st Century in terms of quality; if not range. All three of these companies seemed to stagnate after about 2006; producing nothing new, just endless repaints. Minichamps remains in business; but the other two are Fallen Flags! Dragon also produced an exquisite line of pre-built plastic models; but has withdrawn from the 1/35 pre-built market. All of which leads to the rise of the polystone panzers; which is why I am asking questions about who was first, when and why; so I can learn more and continue the story. A confluence of events in about 2005 caused the emergence of five major players in Toy Soldiers over the next few years. NMA, Honor Bound, TCS and Figarti. Three of those are gone but NMA is partially resurected in TG and Figarti may re-establish itself; but most likely will not! TCS and TG remain viable innovative companies producing new products. WB is also still viable after too many buyouts and is starting to expand past just the figures to superb artillery products. I believe 21st Century, Minichamps and FOV all inspired the growth in polystone armor producing companies and the flight from the too crowded 1/32 traditional scale to the new 1/30 scale; or in the case of TCS 1/28 scale. The research goes on and the Treefrog Treasures Forum archives are a treasure beyond price in the historical research of the origin and evolution of Toy Soldiers in the 21st Century.

Please feel free to correct any eerrors or false assumptions I have made in this summary of my rsearch to date.
Regards

From memory I believe the K & C WS059 Jagdpanther which was released in August 2004 was one of the first armoured models in 1/30 scale polystone. I've never owned any of their products made from wood or other material so I can't comment about their scales. King and Country released a SDKFZ 231 8-Wheel Armoured Car (WS032) before the above Jagdpanther, I can't say if the SDKFZ 231 was 1/30 scale as I've never measured one. Suffice to say the New Model Army SDKFZ 231 that was released some years later, was very, very similar in size :wink2: If you're talking consistency, well neither of the companies you mentioned have been absolutely consistent with scale.

 

[katana]

From memory I believe the K & C WS059 Jagdpanther which was released in August 2004 was one of the first armoured models in 1/30 scale polystone. I've never owned any of their products made from wood or other material so I can't comment about their scales. King and Country released a SDKFZ 231 8-Wheel Armoured Car (WS032) before the above Jagdpanther, I can't say if the SDKFZ 231 was 1/30 scale as I've never measured one. Suffice to say the New Model Army SDKFZ 231 that was released some years later, was very, very similar in size :wink2: If you're talking consistency, well neither of the companies you mentioned have been absolutely consistent with scale.

Matt; thank you for the information. The NMA and K&C Sd. Kfz 231 8 Rad are both 1/30 scale polystone. I did not realize the K&C model predated the NMA. A comparison between the two is on the NMA thread. Your observations indicate that their was a long transition period period where 1/32 an 1/30 were produced at the same time by the same company, interesting!

 

[katana]

Ok, I'm back home from work and have some time to catch up on forum issues. For those members interested in correct size/scale, I recommend using a metal ruler with imperial and metric units similar to that below. As you can see both the Imperial and Metric units start from the end of the ruler rather than at opposite ends like the wooden ruler in Katana's photo. If you want to be really keen you can buy callipers, which will either impress your friends, or make them feel just a bit more sad for you.

View attachment 188826

I user metal rulers as they allow greater flexibility and increased accuracy over wooden versions because you don't have that small gap on the end of wooden rulers that allow for wear. Especially useful when measuring figure height from the top of the base to eye level, or even full head height, also more accurate than wooden ruler when showing height of a vehicle in a photo.

Now to those measurements, well it's not easy assessing dimensions from photos, especially using the archaic imperial units that have long since been superseded in Australia. However assuming Katana measured everything correctly I'd have to agree that it is larger than 1/32 scale, I wouldn't go so far to say it was entirely 1/30 scale, let's call it 1/31. Which means this model is near enough to use with most First Legion and some Britains figures, but we knew this anyway as plenty of collectors are using 21 ST Century and FOV tanks with their figures from the smaller end of the 60 mm range.

Matt; thank you for the information. I have compiled a comparison chart of three Panzer IVs with very close measurements and considering that the three companies who made them are Figarti 1/29.6, First Legion 1/31, and 21st Century 1/30; it is very interesting IMHO!

Figarti Pz IV----------------------------First Legion Pz IV----------------------------21st Century Pz IV

Hull Lgth 7.8"--------------------------------------7.4"--------------------------------------------------7.6"
Without Gun.

Width------3.94"-------------------------------------3.9"--------------------------------------------------3.9"
Without Schurtzen

Height-----3.6"---------------------------------------3.2"--------------------------------------------------3.5"
Top of Cupola

Average---1/29.6---------------------------------1/31-------------------------------------------------1/30
Scale; L+W+H/3

Dimensions in Inches

 

[OzDigger]

Matt; thank you for the information. The NMA and K&C Sd. Kfz 231 8 Rad are both 1/30 scale polystone. I did not realize the K&C model predated the NMA. A comparison between the two is on the NMA thread. Your observations indicate that their was a long transition period period where 1/32 an 1/30 were produced at the same time by the same company, interesting!

About 90% of collectors don't care much about scale and the finer details of the hobby, they're just out to have fun. When someone seems to be stirring things up for no apparent reason (in their minds), they get upset. I gave up trying to alter peoples perception of scale etc some time ago, at the end of the day you only have to please yourself, and it is just 'Toy Soldiers' as Andy once told me, and he's correct. I still don't understand how you can display 1/28 figures with 1/24 tanks etc as there's more variance in scales as you approach 1:1. For example 1/28 compared to 1/24 scale is a significant difference in mathematical terms than 1/28 to 1/30 scale. However you go for it you like that, but I suggest you reduce the number of threads you start on it as most people just don't care.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Katana,

In another thread we had this same discussion a week or two ago and I opined that it was K & C with some of their early Panthers (WS 23) and possibly the JP (WS 59). I'm surprised to see it so soon again. Figarti, in my opinion, switched to 1/30 so they could compete for the same customer as K & C. I'm also not aware that NMA made armor but since it was long ago I may have forgotten.

Brad

As far as I can tell, NMA made only several AFVs. The Lynx and the Sturmtiger are 1:32. I once had them both and still have the Sturmtiger. I don't think any of the NMA were 1:30 At that time all AFVs from K&C, NMA, Figarti, WB were 1:32

Terry