Why do Yanks always bag the fighting ability of the French? (4 Viewers)

[lancer]

The Marine Corps, Navy and Army indeed gained dozens of little unsinkable aircraft carriers through their Island hopping campaign. When you think about the Islands that were invaded instead of bypassed, they were to gain airfields to permit our forces to close on the Japanese mainland: Henderson Field and its Cactus Airforce, the Islands attacked in the Marianas, Iwo Jima, right up to Okinowa. The necessity of holding the airfield at Midway from Japanese conquest is another example.

There would have been no such islands to "hop" from in the Atlantic, except maybe the Canary Islands, which are a heck of a lot further from Normandy then the British Isles.

And remember, landing a numerically superior force to wipe out an isolated garrison on a small island is a very different proposition from landing on the mainland of a continent and facing (for the first time in combat - there would have been no Operation Torch, Operation Husky or Operation Baytown) the experienced Nazi Forces.

And also, even with the Island Hopping, we never had to actually invade the Japanese mainland. The proposition was so daunting, that the military ordered half a million body bags. I have no doubt at that point in the war we would have succeeeded, but how many of us on this forum would never have been born because our fathers would have lost there lives in that invasion? I don't even want to even contemplate the losses of American, British and Australian/New Zealand lives if we had to do it. I am just thankful that Truman had the guts to do what was necessary to same half a million Allied and probably 3-5 million Japanese lives.

Louis, your last sentence hits the nail right on the head. A terrible weapon for use against humanity, the A-bomb saved lives and the Japanese race. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

Rutledge...
25,000 islands in the pacific area with less than half inhabitable. Its a far cry from the atlantic so, maybe, I bet the marine corps would have loved control of a central island easily defended say the size of the UK in the pacific theatre. then many thousands of allied troops would have grown old gracefully than dieing in god forsaken hell holes in the pacific.

The falklands war shows how unhelpful the atlantic area is to amphib assaults Acension was our only real base but, that lack of ''island hopping'' ability the US had in WWII cost our naval forces dearly. Imagine the carnage in WWII when naval based assaults against land mass were in its infancy with less than a handfull of islands available.

Al/Louis
the japanese would have never given up and Okinawa etc showed what they would have faught like for their islands. No doubt it took lives but saved more in the long run
Mitch

Good thing no one told this to the Marine Corps! Somehow they drove the Japanese back to their island fortress without a Britain from which to launch their assaults. Island hopping through the Atlantic...?

 

[marco55]

Could the Azores or Canary islands been used?
Mark

 

[lancer]

Could the Azores or Canary islands been used?
Mark

JMO, but they were too remote to the target and no infrastructure for such an undertaking. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

The british used them in WWII with approval of the potugese under operation alacrity we took control. They helped to combat the U-boat menace but, its still about 1000 miles from mainland europe and that looking back to WWII would not have been usable even if the US wished to invade or attack the germans IMO.
Mitch

 

[Gebhard]

In modern times the French Foreign Legion have shown they are right up there with the SAS.

Hi Pete ,
Not sure you can use the French Foreign Legion as an example of French Fighting ability , by definition it is a " Foreign " force . :wink2:
Here is a link to their site they are always looking for a few good men. http://www.legion-recrute.com/en/.:wink2: This is taken from the site .. Whatever your origins, nationality or religion might be, whatever qualifications you may or may not have, whatever your social or professional status might be, whether you are married or single, the French Foreign Legion offers you a chance to start a new life...
Join the 7699 legionnaires and non-commissioned officers hailing from 136 different countries, including France. Build yourself an exceptional future in which “honour” and “fidelity” are fundamental values.

And I'm not sure you can say Napoleon is really French as he was born on the Mediterranean Island of Corsica which was Italian until 1769 the year of his birth when it was conquered by France. His name was Napoleone Buona Parte in Corsica which became Napoleon Bonaparte in French. His fathers name was Carlo Buona Parte and his mother was Letizia Ramolino Buona Parte sound pretty Italian :smile2: .

This is a strange phenomena not exclusive to ol Nappy .. Hitler is the most well know or infamous "German" but he was actually an Austrian .....sure like to give that one back ^&grin don't think they would be interested though and how about Wellington wasn't he an Irishmen born in Dublin ? Just some food for thought . For the record I've nothing against the French... IMO a great culture and race :wink2: All the best Gebhard

 

[The Military Workshop]

Came to this thread late and just read it all.

Firstly would have to disagree with the comment that the Foreign Legion can be compared to the SAS. If the French were going to mount a hostage rescue or send troops, in small patrols, a long distance behind enemy lines I don't think they would be deploying the Foreign Legion. A quick Wikipedia search on French Special Forces does not mention the Legion but mainly Para and Commando units. Their toughness is well known but they do not have the skills or training of SAS troopers (from UK, Oz or NZ).

I recall in 2003 when the Coalition was planning to go into Iraq the French were opposed and voted against USA / UK in the UN. At that time there were a lot of anti French jokes going around and some have appeared in this thread. I actually produced a T shirt with the US, British and Aussie flags on the front and some of those jokes on the back. On the front I had one I made up which was underneath the flags and said "Warning to Germany. Next time you invade France we might let you keep it". Feeling at that time was very strong against the French. I do however know a senior Australian Air Force officer who was posted in France at the time and he said the French military were very keen and were preparing to join the Coalition but were prevented by the politicians. Apparently senior French officers were writing to the French press to support French deployment with the Coalition.

Regarding Rutledges comment about island hopping in the Pacific and no island base I would like to point out that Macarthurs HQ was in Brisbane, Australia (now a Museum and can be visited) and that many US troops deployed from Oz (as depicted in TV series The Pacific). The distances once they left Oz did get quite long and full credit to the USN and troops for covering such a wide area.

and another thing, and no disrespect to the RAF, but that Channel bit definitely is a big plus when it comes to defence.

Regards
Brett

 

[jules118]

Came to this thread late and just read it all.

Firstly would have to disagree with the comment that the Foreign Legion can be compared to the SAS.... Their toughness is well known but they do not have the skills or training of SAS troopers (from UK, Oz or NZ).

Regards
Brett

Agreed. Although it's a misconception that a lot of people have.

The Legion is structured and trains for a very different role to that of the SAS units (Brit / Oz /NZ). The SELECTION process for the SAS is devised to look for different characteristics as well as physical toughness. Because, crucially the roles and tasks of the SAS is different to that allocated to the Legion. It's like comparing the transport corps to the artillery... sure they both drive big vehicles around but they've got different jobs. The French equivalent to the SAS is not found within the Legion.

 

[Rob]

Someone should have told William the Conqueror the Channel was a big obstacle, 900 years before the most formidable army of its age wanted to try it. Funny, there was no RAF then was there, anyway it wasn't all the lives sacrificed and German planes that littered the English countryside that won the battle, it was the Channel. Again funny, because I've always understood the early phases of the Battle were designed to lure out and destroy the RAF so they could not interfere with the invasion, but it appears the Germans were confident in crossing 18miles of water once the RAF were beaten, they must have had wonderful sailing ships just like William!.

Rob

 

[The Military Workshop]

Rob,
Your defence of the honour and memory of the RAF is admirable but sometimes a bit over the top as you can sometimes misread things (as previously mentioned by Peter).

All I said was "no disrespect to the RAF, but that Channel bit definitely is a big plus when it comes to defence".

Let me put it this way. If King Harold, Sir Francis Drake or Churchill had prior intelligence of an invasion by stronger well prepared forces and were given the option of having the Channel or farm land between Britain and Europe which do you think they would have chosen ?

I am pretty sure the French would not mind having a Channel between them and Germany. From my interpretation of your response you would rather not have it if it might take away even a minor part of the glory of winning. Nobody, well certainly not me, is saying anything against the RAF during the BOB but I bet those pilots and Churchill and his Generals appreciated the Channel being there.

Regards
Brett

 

[Mitch]

Brett...
We all know what those farmers are like with the shotguns and ''get orf my land signs'' so, I would take the water as jerry would not want to annoy a farmer!!!! Anyone need any intell on farmers check out the Viz comic farmer Giles. Rotten all of them and evil with it!!!

Guys...
Just saw the comparison with the SAS and the Foriegn legion had missed that the SAS is the elite unit and always will be thats what its there for No comparison at all between the two IMO. Embassy seige margaret thatcher did not call for the legion she called for her SAS, the SAS were hunting scuds in the desert not the legion.

Can anyone answer me how hard they think the germans would have found it to cross 20 miles of water without any hostility??? as easy as crossing 20 miles of countryside as they could have took their time landed glider and paratroops to secure inland areas and grabbed the first boat they found and had a ''jolly'' to margate or Dover.

That why its so important to brits what was done by the handful of pilots and, I think its great that Rob defends them so well
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Well, I have to weight in here about the channel and the crossing of it. Like it or not, that channel is a major impediment to invasion. Even minus the RAF, do you think the Royal Navy was just going to let the Germans waltz across? Thanks to the RAF, no such scenario ever took place, but I don't believe the RN would have failed it's duty. I think a successful invasion of the British Isles was a pipe dream, destined to failure. The RAF proved that and drove the point home but I have no doubt Hitler would have lost, one way or the other. The people of GB were not going to allow an invasion no matter what had to be done to stop it. -- Al

 

[Rob]

Brett...
We all know what those farmers are like with the shotguns and ''get orf my land signs'' so, I would take the water as jerry would not want to annoy a farmer!!!! Anyone need any intell on farmers check out the Viz comic farmer Giles. Rotten all of them and evil with it!!!

Guys...
Just saw the comparison with the SAS and the Foriegn legion had missed that the SAS is the elite unit and always will be thats what its there for No comparison at all between the two IMO. Embassy seige margaret thatcher did not call for the legion she called for her SAS, the SAS were hunting scuds in the desert not the legion.

Can anyone answer me how hard they think the germans would have found it to cross 20 miles of water without any hostility??? as easy as crossing 20 miles of countryside as they could have took their time landed glider and paratroops to secure inland areas and grabbed the first boat they found and had a ''jolly'' to margate or Dover.

That why its so important to brits what was done by the handful of pilots and, I think its great that Rob defends them so well
Mitch

Thank you Mitch, thats very kind of you.

Marco,Brett,Jules,Peter have all said that my remarks are over the top or I'm reading too much into things. They are all absolutely entitled to their view of me, thats the joy of freedom . However I suggest that to people in this country the Battle of Britain is something that runs very very deep indeed, we were the first to stand up and stop Hitler and it was a victory that would eventually free Europe and then the world . I'm not going into all the arguments again its not worth it.

Whatever you guys think of me and my defence of the RAF in the Battle of Britain I ask you to accept something. If I watered down or even made the inference that US troops did not really perfom that well in say Normandy or the Pacific or Australians were not at their best at Gallipoli, you would all be down on me like a ton of bricks.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Al...

The levity from my last post aside you are right and there are now documents out that show had the germans been able to land in any strength armed forces and civillians were to adopt a serious guerilla war and destroy important infrastructure to give the germans nothing.

The RN would have done well but, the air support was vital as the junkers 87 and 88 would have wreaked havoc with our warships. There was also plans to retreat back to scotland to regroup and have a go so, even in the paraphanalia that was distributed to armed forces and senior officials we were readying for the fight. Having seen the plans for england germany had we had little choice to fight or die. Fortunately, we survived through the fighting spirit not only of the armed forces but the civillian population and, well, the germans got a kickin
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Thank you Mitch, thats very kind of you.

Marco,Brett,Jules,Peter have all said that my remarks are over the top or I'm reading too much into things. They are all absolutely entitled to their view of me, thats the joy of freedom . However I suggest that to people in this country the Battle of Britain is something that runs very very deep indeed, we were the first to stand up and stop Hitler and it was a victory that would eventually free Europe and then the world . I'm not going into all the arguments again its not worth it.

Whatever you guys think of me and my defence of the RAF in the Battle of Britain I ask you to accept something. If I even made the inference that US troops did not really perfom that well in say Normandy or the Pacific or Australians were not at their best at Gallipoli, you would all be down on me like a ton of bricks.

Rob

I don't know how anyone could not give the RAF it's just do. The RAF made an invasion impossible; gave Hitler his first defeat and forced him on to other things such as Russia (and we know how that went); gave the whole world hope when it looked like all was lost. A remarkable achievement considering all the factors and most importantly, the very small amount of persons the RAF fielded. The credit has to be spread around amongst the whole of GB, as well. No one gave up and the population as a whole deserves great credit as they never broke under the blitz and kept their pugnacious spirits alive. The victory in the BoB was a NATIONAL victory, that deserves credit ALL around. -- Al

 

[Rob]

I don't know how anyone could not give the RAF it's just do. The RAF made an invasion impossible; gave Hitler his first defeat and forced him on to other things such as Russia (and we know how that went); gave the whole world hope when it looked like all was lost. A remarkable achievement considering all the factors and most importantly, the very small amount of persons the RAF fielded. The credit has to be spread around amongst the whole of GB, as well. No one gave up and the population as a whole deserves great credit as they never broke under the blitz and kept their pugnacious spirits alive. The victory in the BoB was a NATIONAL victory, that deserves credit ALL around. -- Al

An excellent post Al (as yours normally are). Perhaps I should just say that I didn't so much mean the guys were playing down the RAF role, more as playing up the role of the Channel, yes of course it was an obstacle but I do think Hans in his lumbering HE111 was probably more worried about the legendary Spitfire's and Hurricane's that were preparing to welcome him to the Green fields of England than coming down in the Channel, although again it was probably on his mind on the way home.

I think Mitch has raised a whole other question re the RN, some say they would have suffered at the hands of the Luftwaffe, but have also heard German vets doubt they had enough skill or experience to take on such a force from the air, thankfully we will never know.:salute::

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

I think even relatively unskilled pilots can adapt very quickly to the task in hand (the germans were masters at becoming skilled in quick time) and the loss of the repulse and prince of wales by the japanese shows this they (japanese pilots) were not specifically trained just swamped capital ships with no defence.

Not intending to bring another subject up but Al brought it up especially when this thread was all about the deficiancy of the french not the fortitude of the brits. The point was to further emphasise the importance of the RAF
mitch

An excellent post Al (as yours normally are). Perhaps I should just say that I didn't so much mean the guys were playing down the RAF role, more as playing up the role of the Channel, yes of course it was an obstacle but I do think Hans in his lumbering HE111 was probably more worried about the legendary Spitfire's and Hurricane's that were preparing to welcome him to the Green fields of England than coming down in the Channel, although again it was probably on his mind on the way home.

I think Mitch has raised a whole other question re the RN, some say they would have suffered at the hands of the Luftwaffe, but have also heard German vets doubt they had enough skill or experience to take on such a force from the air, thankfully we will never know.:salute::

Rob

 

[lancer]

As to the Royal Navy, I believe they were a known quantity to the Germans. The Germans feared and respected the RN whereas, prior to the BoB, I don't believe the Germans had any fear or respect for the RAF. The Germans viewed the Royal Navy as the big obstacle to invasion, only to underestimate the RAF and learn that the whole idea of invasion was going to be beyond their capabilities. Hitler knew that to cross the channel in the face of the RN, he needed air superiority. The RAF won the BoB, making any invasion plans impossible. Hitler couldn't run the channel against both the RAF and the RN and I don't believe he could have done it against either one alone, either. -- Al

 

[lancer]

Rob...

I think even relatively unskilled pilots can adapt very quickly to the task in hand (the germans were masters at becoming skilled in quick time) and the loss of the repulse and prince of wales by the japanese shows this they (japanese pilots) were not specifically trained just swamped capital ships with no defence.

Not intending to bring another subject up but Al brought it up especially when this thread was all about the deficiancy of the french not the fortitude of the brits. The point was to further emphasise the importance of the RAF
mitch

Hi Mitch. I have to disagree about the Japanese not being specifically trained. The Japanese were highly trained to a degree that they made the Japanese conquests/victories possible. Force Z was massacred by a highly effective attack that was unopposed by British air support because of several factors, not the least of which was the belief that capital ships underway at sea could effectively defend themselves against air attack. The skill and training of the Japanese pilots was possibly the most important factor in their early run of triumph in the Pacific. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

Al...

I stand corrected. from what I read about the debacle was more numbers and type of attack aircraft dive bombers, torpedo etc, than highly trained for the mission like the pilots at Pearl were. perhaps I did not give them sufficient credit and, I have not read much about japanese pilot training.
Mitch

Hi Mitch. I have to disagree about the Japanese not being specifically trained. The Japanese were highly trained to a degree that they made the Japanese conquests/victories possible. Force Z was massacred by a highly effective attack that was unopposed by British air support because of several factors, not the least of which was the belief that capital ships underway at sea could effectively defend themselves against air attack. The skill and training of the Japanese pilots was possibly the most important factor in their early run of triumph in the Pacific. -- Al