Why not more Modern Fighting Men (and women!)? (4 Viewers)

[Rutledge]

If there more items produced based on our current conflict(s), would collectors be interested in purchasing them? I would hope the answer is yes.

Now dont get me wrong. I love the WWII era, and think K&C does a great job with it.

But the current conflicts have already lasted longer than WWII. And there is no end in sight.

A toy soldier is a way to honor those who have worn the uniform. And our guys and gals need more honoring - IMO, anyway.

I know we are only talking about toy soldiers. My goal is not to "politicize" the hobby. But if those who claim their interest is based at least partly on historical signifigance, isnt there good reason to pay closer attention to what is going on right now. History is being made as I type!

I know there have been a few sets produced by K&C (and others). And my guess is they havent sold well. But if there was a broader array available, that might stimulate interest. Or perhaps a portion of each sale could go towards some charity on behalf of those who have died or were severly injured? Maybe there are legal issues of which I am not aware.

I dont have any specific requests. Nor connections to groups or veteran organizations. I just see the situation in front of us, and those fighting it maybe not getting the attention they should, and I wonder, I wonder....

 

[Combat]

I recently saw some American, Brit, and Iraqi figures for a line called "Field of Conflict." Not exactly sure who manufacturers them but they look decent.

 

[Wraith]

I would certainly go for some modern era figures. I really do like the K&C SF range, and also the Figarti Iraq war guys. But, as you say, The report from Andy was that the SF series wasn't a huge seller. Shame.

Simon

 

[damian]

Personally I find modern conflicts ( 1990 to present ) depressing. Most of them are caused by greedy and corrupt politicians.
Just my opinion.
Regards
Damian

 

[Louis Badolato]

Personally I find modern conflicts ( 1990 to present ) depressing. Most of them are caused by greedy and corrupt politicians.
Just my opinion.
Regards
Damian

While I agree with everything you say Damian, I believe our brave troops who selflessly fight despite the lack of quality leadership deserve to be honored, and I would certainly love more modern conflict figures, vehicles and aircraft (as well as more Vietnam figures, vehicles and aircraft). The problem for Andy is companies like Forces of Valor which produce excellent quality vehicles from these conflicts in enormous quantities at prices that a polystone vehicle and hand painted white metal figure company cannot compete with, so it is very hard for him to break into this market and make a profit (as opposed to WWII, where he already holds a huge market share).

 

[sceic2]

Its history that draws me to the hobby, not current events. Perhaps in 40 or 50 years when the present time period becomes more history than reading a newspaper I will become interested in collecting it. While I have a large amount of my collection in WWII, I find myself being more and more drawn to the earlier time periods, especially after John Jenkins began to offer the Seven Years War. Next on my wish list is to begin collecting Spartens and other ancients. Of course Napoleonic figures are some of my favorite as well but as far as present time period figures and vehicles, they hold no collecting attraction for me.

 

[damian]

Louis
I meant no disrespect for the grunts on the ground. As always they pay the price of other people's greed and machinations.
Regards
Damian

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis
I meant no disrespect for the grunts on the ground. As always they pay the price of other people's greed and machinations.
Regards
Damian

Damian,

I didn't think you were disrespecting the troops, I was merely expressing that while I am in complete agreement with you about the depressing nature of the conflict, I still want to collect toy soldiers representing it, as I believe in doing so I honor our troops.

 

[Rutledge]

Personally I find modern conflicts ( 1990 to present ) depressing. Most of them are caused by greedy and corrupt politicians.
Just my opinion.
Regards
Damian

Agreed, Damian, but arent all wars pretty much the result of poor decisions made by those in charge? I mean Hitler was evil, but the Treaty of Versailles could certainly be pointed to as a major cause. Remember, it was written by the winners of the first.

Regardless, I would like to see more coverage of our brave troops fighting today. They are defending our way of life, and our ongoing prosperity, through which we have the ability to enjoy this hobby.

If they dont sell, or the manufacturers cant make money, then there is not much to say - I get that. But with the new american camo, lots of special forces, and so on, I would think there would be a market for a higher end range than FOV. But of course I dont have any info to back this up, just my 2 cents.

 

[damian]

I admire the troops but I do feel our current crop of politicians and I include my own country here are a pretty shabby lot even by the generally accepted standard of politicans. When I compare my country's current politicans to previuos leaders such as Nelson Mandela and Govan Mbeki I just feel despondent. Anyway I think we are all agreed about politicians. Back to toy soldiers. Figarti has a wonderful range of Iraq war stuff but it does not seem to sell well. I agree with Louis that FOV and the like mass produce modern vehicles and actually do quite a good job so it will be hard for toy soldier manufacturers to compete with those behemoths. I would like to see more Vietnam stuff. I have the Figarti patrol boat and that is good as well as most of the early K and C Vietnam stuff. These pieces seem to command high values on ebay so they obviously are popular.
Regards
Damian

 

[maloyalo]

It is an interesting issue. I have a similiar non-interest in the most recent conflicts as subjects for toy soldiers. Probably because somehow they are too real to me, too emotion laden to be something I want to play with. So not a toy so to speak, at least not yet. As a more formal collectible designed for display only perhaps I can see it more.

But I see the point of wishing to capture modern soldiers in miniature as being somehow a form of respect. I actually agree with that. Its very paradoxical to me.

I could see it also as possibly being disturbing or trivializing to some, particulary soldiers or families of soldiers.

Also there is the concept of depicting 'the enemy' at a time when peace is actually sought or after a recent conflict when reconciliation with old enemys is sought (yesterdays foes are sometimes tommorrows allies) The choice of subjects and what is depicted would require careful consideration.

It is probbaly telling that the interest in wars or making models of them has a delayed time frame. One reason is for wounds to heal, another is that eventually the actual combattants die, and there is no one to personnelly offend.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

The current conflicts are too close. The past has occurred and there is nothing we can do about it, so I think we’re safe collecting figures from those periods, even controversial ones. In contrast, many of the conflicts of the present are being pursued by governments which represent us as citizens, and hence we are in some way culpable in them. Let’s say a manufacturer had made a figure set of the 320th MP Battalion in 2003 before the Abu Ghraib scandal unfolded, and one of the figures happened to be a woman who looked like Ms. England. Knowing what you know now would you be comfortable still having that figure on your shelf? I wouldn’t. Would the manufacturer have been forced to recall that set if the media got whif of it? Perhaps. This just serves to illustrate that current conflicts, that are still unfolding, are too “raw” for toy soldiers. We haven’t had time to meditate on or comes to grips with these conflicts as a society nor do we have the luxury of distancing ourselves completely from them. As citizens of the world who are alive right now we bear some responsibility for how these conflicts turn out and toy soldiers on my shelf would simply remind me of this terrible burden.

Three more reasons why collecting modern interests me less than the past:

Because the conflicts of the past happened so long ago, one can just focus on modelling the men and the equipment which is a lot of fun. In contrast, for modern subjects I find I can’t concentrate on the men and equipment without thinking about the wider ongoing conflict and that just saps my enjoyment right out of it. I don’t agree with the moral justification for most current world conflicts so I don’t necessarily want to collect troops associated with them, even though some of their equipment and uniforms might be cool.

When collecting prior conflicts there is an element of discovery because through your miniature figures you will learn new and interesting things about the past which otherwise are glossed over by a society that only cares about the present. In contrast, if I want to see modern troops I just turn on the 6 O’clock news and be reminded of scenes I am already depressingly familiar with.

If the objective in making toy soldier sets is to honour soldiers, well someone from outside the hobby might think we are trivializing them by making them into “toys”. Also I’m not sure all modern “soldiers” deserve to be honoured. Specifically, a Taliban suicide bomber who blows apart a square full of civilians does not deserve any sort of honour. Neither does a Blackwell Corporation sniper who only went over there to make money – there’s no honour in mercenary service.

 

[maloyalo]

The current conflicts are too close. The past has occurred and there is nothing we can do about it, so I think we’re safe collecting figures from those periods, even controversial ones. In contrast, many of the conflicts of the present are being pursued by governments which represent us as citizens, and hence we are in some way culpable in them.
If the objective in making toy soldier sets is to honour soldiers, well someone from outside the hobby might think we are trivializing them by making them into “toys”. Also I’m not sure all modern “soldiers” deserve to be honoured. Specifically, a Taliban suicide bomber who blows apart a square full of civilians does not deserve any sort of honour. Neither does a Blackwell Corporation sniper who only went over there to make money – there’s no honour in mercenary service.

I agree with most of your comments. You especially well point out how current conflicts are full of ambiguities and idealologies.

One thing I might add is that the same charges of wrongdoing could be leveled at many governments and some soldiers of every earlier conflict that is collected. It must have to do more with the aging of current events into history then a desent of modern conflicts into less honorable conditions I believe. I think it difficult to compare things such as conflict in the Middle-east with The 30 Years War, or World War II.

What will history say in 5 years or 50 ?

I love the line in the opening prologue of the film 'The Fellowship of the Ring'. "History became legend, and legend became myth"

At this point to me, it seems it will have more to do with your point of view, then an absolute. That bomber may still be someone's hero, and the sniper the subject of a film or video game. I actually fairly agree with your view of it, but just point out it may only extend a short distance. The world is changing.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

For the very reason you describe I think buying toy soldiers solely in order to honor the people and values of the present can be somewhat problematic, because today's valiant freedom-fighter is tomorrow's cowardly villain (case in point - Osama Bin Laden). The modern world is still in a state of flux which makes it that much harder for manufacturers to make toy soldiers that people will not be offended by. Rather than trying to honor someone or something, I think a stronger argument for collecting modern is that some of the stuff just looks cool, but even that is a matter of personal preference (I'll take a V-1 anyday over a predator drone).

Also, as you say, the time difference is key - much wrong-doing has happened in the past, but since I wasn't alive then, I don't feel any responsibility for it whatsoever so I can collect that period with a clean conscience.

 

[jazzeum]

Time and space brings distance and from my perspective modern wars (and I include Vietnam in this) are too close. I collect figures as a way of illustrating history that I'm interested in and modern wars holds no interest for me as they are too much of a reminder of a time that is depressing, a subject on which Damian and I agree.

 

[Tex]

As someone said earlier, history is what draws me to the hobby. I agree with the general view expressed that some wars are just too close. As young as I am, I feel somewhat akward with even the WWII sets; my grandfather was in the war.

I make the next comment moving away from an ideological or emotional stance on the moral implications of current-conflict toy soldiers. A purely practical consideration may be that, among the few modern-day toy soldiers I have seen, I have seldom seen any that look good--I have never seen well-painted modern camo.

 

[damian]

We should ask one of the old Britains epxerts for some sort of perspective here, but I think the company did make Boer War figures at the time or shortly after the Boer war. That was a war filled with moral ambiguity and is hence surprisingly modern. I read in one of Norman Joplin's books that the company did not really make WWI in a big way as that was too close to the bone at the time.Perhaps Dave or some one more knowledgeable could give us a an overview of this question from a toy soldier historical perspective.
Regards
Damian Clarke

 

[maloyalo]

I think a stronger argument for collecting modern is that some of the stuff just looks cool, but even that is a matter of personal preference (I'll take a V-1 anyday over a predator drone).

That, and what Tex was saying seems to bring it back into perspective. At the core we are mostly miniaturists. We enjoy depicting military scenes with these models. There is I think a tendency to be more interested in the strangeness of the past, as opposed to the familiar of the modern.

I always thought it odd that my interests have come ever closer to the present as I age. It literally was in order ancient, medieval, Napoleonic, American Civil War, WWII. Though I have made smaller excursions into different periods. I wondered if I would eventually reach today...but seem to have skipped it and went entirely into fantasy (Lotr) figures.

 

[Rutledge]

Everyone is making some valid points. But still, I doubt that time or distance will ever erase the horrors of the holocaust. Yet most of us collect german soldiers, some the Berlin series, and doesnt mean that we have forgotten what really went on.

I wish we knew more about what was going on over there. There seems to be no such thing as a truly major battle. But there have definitely been some heroes. I suppose I would like to think our hobby could be employed in a positive way that helps our folks, rather than long after its all "history".

Its those folks who right now are preserving our right to pursue such "luxuries" as toy soldiers.

 

[maloyalo]

Everyone is making some valid points. But still, I doubt that time or distance will ever erase the horrors of the holocaust. Yet most of us collect german soldiers, some the Berlin series, and doesnt mean that we have forgotten what really went on.

I wish we knew more about what was going on over there. There seems to be no such thing as a truly major battle. But there have definitely been some heroes. I suppose I would like to think our hobby could be employed in a positive way that helps our folks, rather than long after its all "history".

Its those folks who right now are preserving our right to pursue such "luxuries" as toy soldiers.

I have read about an interesting coincidence. Hardly any toy soldiers were produced during WWII of course. Most moved into war material production, or closed, and some companies were literally destroyed. Two of the main English companies Britains and Timpo got back into toy soldiers after the war ended. Holocaust survivors/refugee's, were among the first new employee's in both companies, and were mold making and sculpting craftsmen.